KHF information

[Greg]

Bruce:

I've spoken with Master Whalen about the incident that occurred on May 2nd and I think that the comments you've made with regard to instructor-student relationships don't really apply here. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, because I agree with a great deal of what you have to say with regard to a student's expectations from his/her instructor. I also think that instructor-student relationships can be abused and this issue is hardly ever discussed. However, I don't think this is the issue here. Master Whalen doesn't mind dissenting opinions in the least and he doesn't expect everyone to always support his take on things. In fact, anyone who knows him well will tell you that he doesn't have much of an ego at all.

What I see is that he was offended by the fact that you didn't show any appreciation for the generosity he extended to you throughout the weekend. And had you told him during the training session that you felt your needs were not being met, he would have done everything he could to meet them. But...you never let him know. And if you know Hal you would understand that his intentions were to sincerely help you. You could have let him know what you felt you needed and this would have taken care of everything. I mean, what about the water principle? What about being fluid and flexible to the situation?

Forget the instructor-student relationship for a minute and simply look at it from the vantage point of common courtesy.

If I opened my home to a friend and did everything I could to be a good host, but then something later in the visit didn't go the way either of us expected (say the pipes burst and flooded his bedroom), I would still expect my friend to be thankful for hospitality I had extended. It's also like being invited to someone's home for a 7 course meal and then getting upset when the dessert didn't quite meet your expectations. Instead of having the thought, "Dammit that dessert didn't satisfy me," why not take the attitude of, "Well that was nice that a friend invited me over for dinner and while it could have been better I'll thank him for his generosity and for the dinner as a whole."

This is why Master Whalen became upset. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a 7th Dan and you're a 4th Dan. It has nothing to do with you having different opinions regarding this-or-that. It has nothing to do with the KHF or his position within the KHF.

One thing that struck me about Master Whalen from the beginning was how he was not "caught up" in all the mannerisms that you so often see in some masters and instructors. Some will be so artificially formal it's instead of just being genuinely kind and respectful. And along with this, many use their rank as way to justify speaking or acting towards others in a somewhat condescending manner. This is definitely NOT Hal Whalen.

Again, I know you might respond by saying that you're needs were not met. But again, this is someone that you met for the first time, someone that you were attempting to forge a friendship and someone that over the long haul had a great deal that he could offer to you. For that reason, good communication would have gone a long way. And instead of looking at it from the side that you didn't get your needs met - why not take a step back and simply look at the overall interaction as a whole. Were your actions that day a little over-the-top? If they were because you injured your leg and that ruined the possibility of testing for 4th Dan in June, I'm sure he would have understood. I certainly would. But again...you never told him.

Perhaps a little more flexibility with others might better serve you needs in the long run.


Sincerely,

Greg Polites

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Greg:

I think everything that you have said is accurate as long as we are focusing on me as an individual within the context of this particular situation on May 1 and 2nd. I made a clear point of saying that I had made my final word on the subject from that point of view so there is nothing more to say there that I can see.

NOW, what about the other 7 issues I mentioned in my post of a couple of days ago that people tend to avoid talking about. Folks here on the Net can most certainly continue to bounce back and forth about playing the blame-game if they want to, but, honestly, isn't that taking the easy way out and isn't this what people do on these Nets over and over again. Its relatively easy to to point a finger and say "shoulda-coulda-woulda". Yes, if we need to continue to beat on this issue you are absolutely right. I could have gone to Hal earlier and said my needs were not getting met or why what we were doing was NOT what was discussed on the phone during the weeks earlier. And, no, the issue was never his emenities in welcoming me into his home. The issue is very specific, cut and dried.

...............
I expected to focus on preparation for the up-coming test and to examine the relationship among execution of YMK, CDK and KHF material so as to have better idea of what to expect when attending a KHF event. Hal and I talked about this repeatedly on the phone weeks before I went. Was I angry about being reinjured and having my chance at the up-coming performance in front of KHF leadership cancelled. Damn right! Was I pissed about seeing the event I was grooming myself for disappear before my eyes? Damn right! But THAT is NOT the issue and raising my bad behavior does NOT address the actual issue as I see it. .............

The actual issue as I see it is one of a number of issues people do not want to talk about. To Wit: Does a junior have the right to expect to get his needs met from his seniors? I think the short answer is "yes" but while everyone seems to agree with this statement superficially, in actual practice the junior is generally expected to take whatever a senior dishes out with few questions asked. Witness how the KHF leadership is treating its juniors in America. And what happens when the juniors complain? Those juniors are told that they have to "learn" humility, or respect for seniors, or respect for the organization, or the "true martial way", etc.

IF you look at my earlier post you will see that there are a number of similar issues that come up in the KMA, are rubber-stamped with the obvious answer, but then in PRACTICE are NOT dealt with as people say they should be. I will say again, that it is my personally opinion that folks would much rather identify an individual and beat on that person than enter into an intelligent discussion about the hypocrisy in the KMA. If I may identify a perfect example of what I am talking about I direct your attention to Richard Hackworth who was raked over the coals for his various indiscretions. We have yet to hold the leadership of the KHF responsible for THEIR collusion in his bad behavior, their similar greed in chasing revenues, or their similar failure to provide certs that have been paid for. Again, if you want to continue to beat on me for my bad behavior I understand and you won't get an argument out of me. But if this string does what every other string of this type has done in the past, people will tire of beating on me and duck out to another string rather than stay here and hammer-out meaningful issues. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU POSTED THIS!!!

"Similarly, when I give a seminar, I have to be concerned for the welfare of ALL participants. If someone came expecting something that is way out of line with the content of my planned presentation, the best I can do is offer a refund. I will NOT change the seminar content the rest of the participants came for. Again, I won't feel any less of a teacher for doing that"

Ok, Ok. So I understand that you would not change the stated goal of a seminar in deference to a particular individual. Certainly that makes sense. However you are known among a whole range of schools for your ability to shape things, on the mat, in the seminar to meet the needs of the individual student at the level at which you find them. You also have a huge reputation for making yourself available before and after the official time limits of the event to respond to the needs of the attendees. So, I would say that while you don't change stated goals, you certainly go out of your way to keep the parameters of the goals "elastic" where the student is concerned.

I would take credit where credit is due, Rudy! :asian:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Its fine to be nice and respectful if the thing is simply not your cup of tea, but I would never feel it was warranted when I paid good money, and put in time, for something that was less than expected or less than it should have been.

I have always believed that hapkido was right for everyone, and have never tried to exclude anyone - my students and I have the same expectations of each other - they are simple - work harder, and all will get better.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

We are on the same track with the belief that Hap Ki Do is good for everyone, and I also try never to exclude anyone form training. However, I make an exception if someone interferes with the training of the group in order to do his own thing. In the case of my young student, I sincerly figured on havbing his mom save some $$$. His training he could do in his own back yard, as Instruction had begun to interfere with the way HE figured his training should go. Oddly enough, his mom continued to train with me even after I sent her son packing. BTW, from the sound of your last sentence, you have a good school.

 

[dosandojang]

I want to applaud and second what Kwang Jang Nim Timmerman just said. I also would like to add this. Frank and Bruce, you two are very smart, positive forces in KMA. Instead of arguing with one or both of you (which I have done, before I got know you both better, and vice versa), I hope that we can just work together in accomplishing our same, main goal...KMA! I will continue to support both (when you are on the same track) of you with all of my being! Peace.......

 

[Disco]

Slightly off topic with this, but I could use some information. The seminar/gathering in Ocala on the 24th. For some unexplained reason, the KHF web site that had the information has had a transformation. Any and all information has been removed. The site is now blank. E-mails are not being responded to....... Is this get together still on? If it is, what is the start time on the 24th? I find it more than stupid for someone to revamp/delete the entire site, right before this get together.

Thanks for any assistance.

 

[glad2bhere]

As of three days ago I had a notice from Fabian giving all the particulars for getting to the location so I say that as of three days ago the event is still on.

As far as the KHF website going south, somehow I think that was in the works a while ago. My sense is that this is preparatory to the sort of widespread outrage one might get should a particular someone be reinstated. Whatever floats their boat. Just so long as he keeps clear of any mat I'm using I could care less.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, thanks for the update. Per chance, you wouldn't happen to have a copy of Fabian's particulars stored, would you? If you do could you e-mail a copy? If not, thanks anyway........

Mike

PS: You really think there's a re-instatement in the works? Personally, I think that would be a deathknowl for the KHF, but money talks.... :idunno:

 

[glad2bhere]

Oooopppsss. Sorry. I had the post in a save-box for a while but have dumped a bunch of things. I can't believe someone doesn't have that info out there.

As far as the reinstatement, absolutely. Think about it. None of the Korean nationals were hurt, none of them lost any money, none of them were taken to court or anything like that. And if they take him back in after a while who is going to raise a fuss? Folks like, say, Frank and Fabian have moved on. Bae is out of the way and Hal has pulled back and contentedly teaching at his school, no worse the wear for what he has been through. There are a lot more folks who want only the trappings of rank and standing than actually want to work for it, and there are some major bucks in selling those trappings. It hasn't been but a couple of months and he is already showing up on the KHF and BUDO-SEEK. If it were me in his shoes you couldn't get me to show my face on this planet ever again. Reinstatement?
Bet on it. :idunno:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

From the "KHF" site...

Dear All Hapkidoin,

This is just a reminder of our first USA Hapkido friendship seminar.
The days 24 ~ 27 of June, many hapkidoin will gather to train Hapkido.
The seminar will be held in the city of Ocala Florida.
The address is:
HAPKIDO KOREA INTERNATIONAL
9353 MARICAMP RD.
OCALA, FL, 34472, USA.

For more information please contact:
Fabian Duque at:
[email protected]

www.hapkidokoreainternational.com

All Hapkidoin, regardless of organizational Affiliation are welcome to attend. Thank you !!

Sincerely,

Fabian Duque

Poor guys, still trying to flog the dead horse. I wish them the best, but I would have got out already...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[Kevin F. Donohue]

Guys,
The KHF is having huge, huge problems. The American membership, along with a few Hapkidoin outside of the KHF have tried to correct these problems but have met with stiff resistance to any progressive (and sometimes more traditional approaches than our brothers in Korea) approaches that we tried to implement.

If Hackworth was allowed to re-join the KHF (never mind being placed in a position of power) it would be enough to destroy what is left of the KHF in the US. With that being said, I can still get my rank through my instructors in Korea if I wish. I don't need to go through any single person or Kwan. If rank was important to me... and it's not.... I could jump to any other organization and jump a belt or two.... don’t' want that either.

Some people want to be part of the biggest or most powerful organization... I don't care much about that. Some want their rank recognized by the Korean government...well I am not applying for a position as a Blue House Bodyguard so that does not seem to matter to me.

The only thing that matters is the truth in the technique. I will follow my teachers in Korea when studying Hapkido because I am still learning a great deal from them. They are more disgusted with what has transpired than we are. These are people who live by the codes thast they teach and teach out of their love of our art.... not money.

My advice is to find the truth anyway that you can. If it is in the KHF... great, they have many fine masters, if not find it where you will.

Have a great day,

Kevin F. Donohue

When the leader is morally weak and his discipline not strict, when his instructions and guidance are not enlightened, when there are no consistent rules, neighboring rulers will take advantage of this.
-Sun Tzu

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

"....My advice is to find the truth anyway that you can. If it is in the KHF... great, they have many fine masters, if not find it where you will....."

Absolutely. If I had the last two years to do over again I would have saved my breath (and keyboard time) trying to explain why what I do and believe are important to me. People who were truely invested in the KMA would not have needed my explanations, and people who were not invested would never be able to understand no matter HOW much I wrote. Used to be I would ask questions, or play the Devils' Advocate or raise issues with an eye towards promoting discussion. After a while I noticed that the same questions and discussions were being asked with noisome repetition. Then I noticed that the same questions were being asked despite the fact that these same questions had been addressed by more qualified people than I and only scant weeks earlier. The upshot was that I had come to a place where I was actually working harder at getting information than the people who were asking the questions! Needless to say I have backed off quite a bit.

There are, and always will be, folks who want to connect with the KMA at the least possible inconvenience to themselves. At the best, these folks are irritating wannabees, but at the worst they are distractions and impedences for others who want to go somewhere and do something with their MA studies. My prayer is that the KHF has no further dealings with the people that injured it so badly. Maybe they will and maybe they won't; I don't know. I DO know that Lifes' too short, and I have places I need to go and things I need to do.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Well, just got in from the first day of the Ocala get together. I didn't really plan on attending, from all the prior problems that were being aired, but I changed my mind because it's right in my back yard. I'm glad I did. All politics aside, it was nice to be with people that study what they want and want what they study. I give Masters Whalen, Duque, Thomas and Bae a well done and my thanks for allowing me access to their knowledge and friendship. They know their discipline and they all enjoy sharing. Also met Mr. Tomlinson from Daytona Beach, another fine hapkidoist. I'm sure that there will be other's who will be arriving tomorrow for the remainder of the training. This get together is more along the lines that I anticipate a seminar to be. Show a technique and address the variables. My poor training partner can attest to that. Not many pressure points work on me, so we did have to make adjustments. The adjustments work just fine -- "now where did I put the ben gay"? :uhyeah:

From Mr Donohue and Mr. Sims - "My advice is to find the truth anyway that you can". Gentlemen, truer words were never spoken....... Wish you both could have made it. :asian: I think some truths will be forthcoming, from the time spent with these fine gentlemen. At least for me anyway. :supcool:

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Disco,

Master Fabian and I are very good friends. We have shared the mat together on more than one occasion. Bruce's, as well as Kevin's, comments force me to ask this question. Do you, from your recent experience in Ocala, feel that Master Fabian is propagating KHF, or putting forth a positive example of Hapkido. I feel that it is the latter. I ask because, I don't want there to be a misunderstanding. Master Fabian is loyal to his Kwan, his Kwanjang and to Hapkido... not to mention he has a great deal of loyalty to his students. I don't think that he intends on supporting KHF any more than he would support Mr. Hackworth.

For the record, Mr. Hackworth does hold legitimate Master certifications in both TKD and HKD. So the question has been asked why I call him Mr. Hackworth instead of Master Hackworth. My first teacher indicated to me that irrespective of ability, martial art is something you either get, or you don't get. When you do get it, you typically make life changing decisions, and begin to exemplify your art with your daily life. One who is focusing on this, AND has met the physical pre-requisites, is a master. I honestly feel that Master Fabian is an excellent master, while Mr. Hackworth just doesn't get it. Call it naivite on my part, but I have certain beleifs that I will not compromise.

For my part, I think that when one deals with a big facelss organization, one is liable to get these things. In a conversation I had with Master Han, Bong Soo, he said something similar. No certificate tells you what you are inside. Some would do well to train more, and focus on self improvement.

But this is just my opinion.

 

[Disco]

Frank, I concur with your reference to Mr. H. The gathering was politics free. Master Whalen made it a point that this was Hapkido and as he liked to say - "same taxi but different driver" or something to that effect. He stipulated that there were several kwans represented and they all have their versions of doing a technique. No one way was better than the other, it was the way you were taught and if by chance you saw and tried the technique a little different and you happened to like the new way better, then we shared. That's what it was all about, sharing our time, friendships and techniques.

As for Master Duque, you are correct. He is a fine gentleman. He knows his Hapkido and he is a bundle of energy. Next time you talk to him, ask him about doing pressure points on me (Mike Dunn). Im sure he'll have a laugh about it. As for the KHF in general, I realize that there is an internal conflict ongoing in Korea. My personal viewpoint after meeting and talking with Masters Whalen, Bae and Thomas, is that the U.S. portion of the KHF is in very good hands and things are in actuality, in the works. I'm not by nature a joiner, but in the for what it's worth department. If I were looking for an affiliation, these men have earned my trust and respect.

Master Bae is a throw back - in a nice way - to the old school instructors. He wants to share and enjoys teaching and being with students. He is a very warm and friendly person and you could see the joy on his face when he came and instructed one on one. He reminded me of the way it used to be when I first started many moons ago and it felt good to go back in time, if only for a little while.

For Master Thomas, at some place in time, we must have crossed paths on the road to enlightenment. Many of the techniques or should I say the approach to the techniques, we do from the same mindset. It's nice to know I'm not alone in the world with my viewpoints. :uhyeah:

Now for a final thought and a "Note" to self. If attending another seminar were Master Whalen be in attendance; Bring a Drum set.....

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Hal and Fabian:
Great to see that the seminar you did was a success. Looks like I missed a great opportunity to spend time with good people, but then you knew I had a previous thing going on. Take care

 

[greendragon]

Got back home a while ago from the four day Friendship Seminar at Master Fabian's dojang in Ocala. Wow, I had a great time learning, throwing, falling, sweating, eating, tapping, grapplin, sharing, choking, kicking, laughing non stop and meeting old friends and making new ones... I met some good Hapkido guys from this board like Mike Dunn who exemplifies the Hapkido concept of never quitting and never giving in. We all had a great time and this event was run the right way. Everyone participated, no lookieloo static Hapkido people just plenty of fun, respect, and heartfelt determination. It was great being thrown and taught by my old Master Hal Whalen. I could go in more depth about Hal but that would take a few days and many keyboards. He is a true Master of Hapkido and when I get on the mat with him he becomes a Hapkido battery charger that just energizes everything and everyone he comes in contact with. Master Fabian ran this event like a true friend and Hapkido Master. I am really happy I have become a friend and extended Hapkido family member of his Dojang and his students. Master Bae came over from Korea and was an awesome and humble individual. He is a sterling example of what is good about Hapkido in Korea. Master Holcome Thomas is one of the most knowledgeable, astute, and yet down to earth Hapkido men you will ever come across.. Great time throwing my guys and being thrown by some of the best Hapkido players you will ever find.. EVERYONE I MET WAS A TRUE EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPKIDO SHOULD BE. Even though I am not a member of the KHF that was not a point of contention...this truly was a friendship seminar and the one thing we ALL had in common at this event was a love of True Hapkido which exists on the mat and in your heart....guys you missed a good one,, my Hapkido batteries have been recharged and I'm happy to say I was part of this gathering,,,next year next time you can bet I'll be there again.... HAP KI !!!
Michael Tomlinson

 

[Disco]

Mr Tomlinson, thanks for complement. Just wish the old bod could do more. I can dish it out but can't take like I used to. And that's part of the fun with Hapkido as you know. My complements to you on your student, you've done excellent in teaching and he is a fine example of your talents. Just wondering on next years get together. Was anything mentioned as to if it would be back at Master Fabians or will there be a different location?

 

[greendragon]

Thanks for the good word on James,, he has definately paid his dues in the Hapkido department... he has "seen" the mat many times and just keeps coming back,, guys like that are hard to find...on next years training.. I didn't hear anything set in stone as to the location so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.. take care bro and if your ever in the Daytona area let me know..
Michael Tomlinson
5th Dan Sin Moo Hapkido

 

[whalen]

First I would like to thank those that attended and participated in the event that made it the success that it was . 36 hours of training in 4 days is what separates those that want to train from those want to complain.

We have not discussed a location for next years event . But on personal note I would like to see it in different parts of the country to give those that are unable to travel a chance and to show support to those that want to "train more than complain"


Hal
artyon: