American Martial Arts: Issue of rank

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Kasho

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As we take a look at American martial arts, with the focus being on rank, it is hard to see how we can call our systems American, Practically when most all systems take on the model or structure of karate when forming their levels of rank. Most so called traditional martial arts had their arts originally come from another country, Later changing style names and using terminology from its own land not that of it’s origin, yet most Americans persist in calling themselves a new system but continue to use old terms from other country’s when referring to their own art or as we are focusing on here rank.
Terms like Kup, Kyu and others are used when describing under belt ranks, as Dan is prominent when referring to black belts. However, there are those arts that are traditional at its core that have modernized to an American system but still use these term, rank structure and levels from it’s passed. Some new systems have no terms, rank or levels other than being described as teacher and student, but most new arts still use the old terms.
Black belt degrees have most people going insane trying to figure out there meaning. With some arts having 5 degrees while others 8 and several having 10 degrees.
Many arts today have a 10 Dan system so their art or their instructors have some sense of superiority over others. But truth be know a 10th Dan is only equal to some systems 5th Dan if that is the highest rank of that art.
Taking a look back, a 10th Dan is usually a founder of an art and the rank is usually self-proclaimed or awarded. There are those who have founded associations, that have review board that will many times awards these levels of high rank, most of the time the person receiving the rank is the person that selected or appointed the board members themselves.
There is no set standard as to who may become a tenth Dan. Some arts founders had many years of study before creating their systems while others did so with only months of formal training.
Martial art systems that use the belt and degree or Dan ranks need to remember from where it came. It was Judo founder Jigoro Kano that was the creator of the belt scheme. Not only was he a founder of an art as well as the creator of the belt structure, but he himself never reached his highest level for rank.
His system was 1st to 4th Dan with 5th or above being honorary Dan titles only. His wish was also that when one achieved the highest level of rank they would revert back to wearing a white belt.
As to karate, When Shotokan’s founder Gichin Funakoshi decided to use Kano’s model of black belt ranks (color belts didn’t come till later for both judo and then karate) I do not think he was speaking or acting on behalf of or for all karate systems when in 1924 he awarded the first karate black belts to some of his students. I would also like to say he or they (Kano and Funakoshi) where probably seen as very pompous by most of the martial art world at that time for taking such a strange approach. Either way, like myself I think these two men probable never felt the need to justify their actions to any others in the martial arts.
As the people of the arts world later fall in line with these Dan ranks 1st thru 4th with all higher Dans being honorary or administrative ranks, and with the later added under belt ranks, it was understood that these ranks were for dividing people up based on a general skill level for the sole purpose of administration use and for competition only.
Somewhere along the way we got so tied up (forgive the pun) in belts and rank we have forgotten the true meaning of the belt structure. We must remember that rank is only good with in your school or system. Has this all become a one ups man ship? Or is it something that is being used for marketing while trying to recruit new students? Or maybe it is so association can charge astronomical fees for the higher Dan ranks.
I think today most of us can see the failures of the old Asian rank structure. So were Kano & Funakoshi people of great vision when it came to the belt system? Or were they two of the most destructive people to the arts in history? That in it’s self is a topic of much debate when it comes to their rolls in the incorporation of belts, we will not weigh in on that here but instead let you come to your own conclusion.
The old 12 Dan in Judo (if memory serves) or the 10 Dan systems has allowed egos to run rank rampant. Again the old system was to have these higher ranks for administrators / founders. The problem is to many people think this must mean a person is so much better than a third, forth or fifth Dan being a tenth Dan. These higher ranks for years have been held like a carrot in front of the lower Dan’s noses as a way of keeping them loyal or in line by associations.
Today If using a belt degree structure, the 5 Dan system does not allow for as much abuse as the ten, and is somewhat a break from the old Japanese / Okinawan systems. Another option would be the original menkyo (teachers certificate). Yes I know that I just used an old term here but it is to make some out there aware that this was a term and method used to distinguished ones place in a school or art long before anyone ever thought about those nice looking belts that we wrap around our waists before tying it into that cute little square knot.
So why do we still have rank and the old belt system? You would have thought that when the Korean people wished to kick all the Japanese things out of their arts they would have gotten rid of this rank structure. So it appears to this writer that familiarity, fear and a need of self-importance would be the reasons that many have kept the old way of doing things.

Well some will give up rank when forming a new art and some may cut down on the number of belts and others will teach the true value of rank to their students. Some people still seem to need approval or respect for their new system and feel they must please others by using the old failed 10 Dan system. But as new arts formed in this land I guess they can do as they wish.

Any American art can have any rank or no rank structure if it wishes, and in no way does it (founded/students) have to pay homage to any country if they do not wish.

I guess the whole thing is, in American arts when forming, blending or creating them, and then looking to its classification, maybe they should think long and hard before just falling back on the old ways.


There are no martial law or rules that cannot or if need be can’t be broken. As Americans we are not one to be dictated to. We have paid our martial dues and only have peers but not superiors. We do not have some little need to seek approval of our systems. We need not have some other country sanctioning it. We should now no longer have the need to appease everyone or go by these Asian rules or taboos that hold nothing that is truly significant of value to the arts. Again speaking about American arts/systems we do not need or do we ask permission to do as we wish with our American arts.
It is common curtsy to recognize a persons rank level of another art, although in truth if a person does not have rank in the other person’s art, then to each other they have NO RANK.
Now with all that great stuff said. After 80+ years of belt systems (for karate) it will be hard to extract them all at once. American martial arts are still evolving, and we should take care when deciding the direction we are going to take. Remember we should be about knowledge and abilities not what hangs off our waist.
Not all will agree with what has been written even when being faced with the facts, many will see it as an attack on their rank, art or status....But more accurately it will be a blow to their ego.

B. Reynolds
 

James Kovacich

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The martial arts themselves are ancient but ranks and promotions are not. Also if any of the new American systems were to try an affiliate with any of the countries of origin they would more than likely be blasted for their actions.

New systems are traditional in a sense that they are a part of all of our lineages. If they were not, then why did they change the names so many times? One only has to trace their lineage to see.

There are a lot of systems in America that do not use belts. The whole JKD line uses basic phase levels to instructor levels. Some form of measurement is needed and will always be used.
 

stone_dragone

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Kasho said:
As we take a look at American martial arts, with the focus being on rank, it is hard to see how we can call our systems American...

I usually handle this question by remembering that I am an American teaching americans, who learned from an American who learned from an American. We call pizza "Italian" and General Tsao's Chicken "Chinese" when they are both, in the form that we know them, american inventions and american food. There is no issue with calling some less-than-traditional karate school calling what it does American (but I think you allude to this later in your article).

Kasho said:
...Martial art systems that use the belt and degree or Dan ranks need to remember from where it came. It was Judo founder Jigoro Kano that was the creator of the belt scheme. Not only was he a founder of an art as well as the creator of the belt structure, but he himself never reached his highest level for rank...

Kasho said:
As to karate, When Shotokan’s founder Gichin Funakoshi decided to use Kano’s model of black belt ranks (color belts didn’t come till later for both judo and then karate) I do not think he was speaking or acting on behalf of or for all karate systems when in 1924 he awarded the first karate black belts to some of his students.

Very true...we need to rememebr where it came from and why it came.
The founders of those quoted systems felt that belts and ranks were for students, not teachers.

Kasho said:
So why do we still have rank and the old belt system?

Belt Ranks for those who use them serve as an effecient method of breaking the curriculum into digestable portions so progress is more easily measured and achieved.

Kasho said:
Some people still seem to need approval or respect for their new system and feel they must please others by using the old failed 10 Dan system. But as new arts formed in this land I guess they can do as they wish.
Kasho said:
Any American art can have any rank or no rank structure if it wishes, and in no way does it (founded/students) have to pay homage to any country if they do not wish.


That must be what I was talking about earlier.

Kasho said:
It is common curtsy to recognize a persons rank level of another art, although in truth if a person does not have rank in the other person’s art, then to each other they have NO RANK.

Excellent ego-destroying point!

Kasho said:
B. Reynolds
 

terryl965

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Kasho said:
As we take a look at American martial arts, with the focus being on rank, it is hard to see how we can call our systems American, Practically when most all systems take on the model or structure of karate when forming their levels of rank. Most so called traditional martial arts had their arts originally come from another country, Later changing style names and using terminology from its own land not that of it’s origin, yet most Americans persist in calling themselves a new system but continue to use old terms from other country’s when referring to their own art or as we are focusing on here rank.
Terms like Kup, Kyu and others are used when describing under belt ranks, as Dan is prominent when referring to black belts. However, there are those arts that are traditional at its core that have modernized to an American system but still use these term, rank structure and levels from it’s passed. Some new systems have no terms, rank or levels other than being described as teacher and student, but most new arts still use the old terms.
Black belt degrees have most people going insane trying to figure out there meaning. With some arts having 5 degrees while others 8 and several having 10 degrees.
Many arts today have a 10 Dan system so their art or their instructors have some sense of superiority over others. But truth be know a 10th Dan is only equal to some systems 5th Dan if that is the highest rank of that art.
Taking a look back, a 10th Dan is usually a founder of an art and the rank is usually self-proclaimed or awarded. There are those who have founded associations, that have review board that will many times awards these levels of high rank, most of the time the person receiving the rank is the person that selected or appointed the board members themselves.
There is no set standard as to who may become a tenth Dan. Some arts founders had many years of study before creating their systems while others did so with only months of formal training.
Martial art systems that use the belt and degree or Dan ranks need to remember from where it came. It was Judo founder Jigoro Kano that was the creator of the belt scheme. Not only was he a founder of an art as well as the creator of the belt structure, but he himself never reached his highest level for rank.
His system was 1st to 4th Dan with 5th or above being honorary Dan titles only. His wish was also that when one achieved the highest level of rank they would revert back to wearing a white belt.
As to karate, When Shotokan’s founder Gichin Funakoshi decided to use Kano’s model of black belt ranks (color belts didn’t come till later for both judo and then karate) I do not think he was speaking or acting on behalf of or for all karate systems when in 1924 he awarded the first karate black belts to some of his students. I would also like to say he or they (Kano and Funakoshi) where probably seen as very pompous by most of the martial art world at that time for taking such a strange approach. Either way, like myself I think these two men probable never felt the need to justify their actions to any others in the martial arts.
As the people of the arts world later fall in line with these Dan ranks 1st thru 4th with all higher Dans being honorary or administrative ranks, and with the later added under belt ranks, it was understood that these ranks were for dividing people up based on a general skill level for the sole purpose of administration use and for competition only.
Somewhere along the way we got so tied up (forgive the pun) in belts and rank we have forgotten the true meaning of the belt structure. We must remember that rank is only good with in your school or system. Has this all become a one ups man ship? Or is it something that is being used for marketing while trying to recruit new students? Or maybe it is so association can charge astronomical fees for the higher Dan ranks.
I think today most of us can see the failures of the old Asian rank structure. So were Kano & Funakoshi people of great vision when it came to the belt system? Or were they two of the most destructive people to the arts in history? That in it’s self is a topic of much debate when it comes to their rolls in the incorporation of belts, we will not weigh in on that here but instead let you come to your own conclusion.
The old 12 Dan in Judo (if memory serves) or the 10 Dan systems has allowed egos to run rank rampant. Again the old system was to have these higher ranks for administrators / founders. The problem is to many people think this must mean a person is so much better than a third, forth or fifth Dan being a tenth Dan. These higher ranks for years have been held like a carrot in front of the lower Dan’s noses as a way of keeping them loyal or in line by associations.
Today If using a belt degree structure, the 5 Dan system does not allow for as much abuse as the ten, and is somewhat a break from the old Japanese / Okinawan systems. Another option would be the original menkyo (teachers certificate). Yes I know that I just used an old term here but it is to make some out there aware that this was a term and method used to distinguished ones place in a school or art long before anyone ever thought about those nice looking belts that we wrap around our waists before tying it into that cute little square knot.
So why do we still have rank and the old belt system? You would have thought that when the Korean people wished to kick all the Japanese things out of their arts they would have gotten rid of this rank structure. So it appears to this writer that familiarity, fear and a need of self-importance would be the reasons that many have kept the old way of doing things.

Well some will give up rank when forming a new art and some may cut down on the number of belts and others will teach the true value of rank to their students. Some people still seem to need approval or respect for their new system and feel they must please others by using the old failed 10 Dan system. But as new arts formed in this land I guess they can do as they wish.

Any American art can have any rank or no rank structure if it wishes, and in no way does it (founded/students) have to pay homage to any country if they do not wish.

I guess the whole thing is, in American arts when forming, blending or creating them, and then looking to its classification, maybe they should think long and hard before just falling back on the old ways.


There are no martial law or rules that cannot or if need be can’t be broken. As Americans we are not one to be dictated to. We have paid our martial dues and only have peers but not superiors. We do not have some little need to seek approval of our systems. We need not have some other country sanctioning it. We should now no longer have the need to appease everyone or go by these Asian rules or taboos that hold nothing that is truly significant of value to the arts. Again speaking about American arts/systems we do not need or do we ask permission to do as we wish with our American arts.
It is common curtsy to recognize a persons rank level of another art, although in truth if a person does not have rank in the other person’s art, then to each other they have NO RANK.
Now with all that great stuff said. After 80+ years of belt systems (for karate) it will be hard to extract them all at once. American martial arts are still evolving, and we should take care when deciding the direction we are going to take. Remember we should be about knowledge and abilities not what hangs off our waist.
Not all will agree with what has been written even when being faced with the facts, many will see it as an attack on their rank, art or status....But more accurately it will be a blow to their ego.

B. Reynolds

Sir great post may I ask what Art you practice and how long you have been studing,
Thanks
Terry
 

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Good post. In your opinion, and if I missed it in your post - please forgive me, what makes a Martial Art American?
 

Carol

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I don't agree. "American Martial Arts: Issue of rank" ?

Bad behaviour is bad behaviour. It is not limited to nor personified by Americans, nor is it limited to an American art such as American Kenpo, nor is it constrained within the borders of the USA.

In the glare of inflated egos and 10th degree black belts of dubious quality, there is quite a bit that gets overlooked. The martial artists that don't go about their training lead by their egos and those that don't inflate their rank.

It is the good folks that do things right that don't get anywhere near the props they deserve for their selfless service to their art, or the students under or with them on the mat.

Contributions to the art can come in many forms. It can come in the form of a beginner student that shows up on the mat with mind focused and body ready to perform as best as s/he can, regardless of what level "best" is. An intermediate student striving for better performance. An advanced student committing to their future. A black belt reaching for an underbelt. An instructor dedicating themselves to quality of what they teach and the welfare of their students.

By focusing all of the attention on black belts behaving badly, something very precious is overlooked. The kind, humble folks that have reached out to us, inspired us, and keep us fighting for more. The folks that would never in their hearts ask for attention are far more deserving of it than the ones that end of getting it.

Raise awareness of the problems, yes, but do not lose the opportunty to point out who is doing it right and to strengthen those that need the support most of all.

Mohindas Gandhi's advice was to be the change you wish to see. Timeless words from the Mahatma. :asian:
 

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Well its like my system it is more philosophy on teaching and application then anything. Its roots are Okinawan Karate-Do and Japanese Ju Jitsu. Is it american no it is Okinawan and japanese. They are the ones who created what I am teaching only unique thing may be application and approach with the acception of most of my kobudo kata it is unique to the system just has they originally were unique to family and dojos on Okinawa. People get way to hung up in the new and forget about the old mentallity. My old instructor used to say the signature of his system was hanging on to the person you just threw or took down and pulling them into you. Thats not unique I have seen many people do it over the years from other systems. Karate in no sense is american only the flashy throwing of bo's in the air doing back flips, excessive kiai and flashy uniforms are american.
 

Last Fearner

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terryl965 said:
Sir great post may I ask what Art you practice and how long you have been studing,
Thanks
Terry

Yeah, and by the way . . . . what rank are you? lol :lol:

Seriously, welcome to the Martial Talk forum, Kasho. :wavey:

While I can understand the points that Kasho was making, I agree with Carol on the issue of those with ego and attitude are there regardless of rank, and those who respect the rank for what it is, are not the problem. The rank system (old or new) is not the problem. It is those who don't understand it, or misuse and abuse it. Sometimes, these discussions make it appear that anyone who uses rank (especially above 4th Dan) has an ego problem, or are not following the ways of the "founders" when they created the systems. This would not be a good or accurate conclusion to draw.

I look at it this way. Many things have changed from the ways of the past, and yet the core knowledge, and philosophy can be preserved. When the automobile was first invented, a man by the name of Henry Ford decided to mass produce them. He got the idea from a meat packing plant. His first cars were only one color. He would say, "You can have any color you want, just so long as it's Black." His cars did not have as many gears as the ones today, and did not go as fast. Today, many automobile manufacturing companies use an advanced system of Ford's assembly line. Regardless of the country, or name of the car, many terms are still the same as in the past.

I can appreciate traditions, but modern times call for upgrades. However, this does not mean we have to throw all of the traditions, and terminology of the past out the window (The American language is filled with words and phrases from other countries and cultures). Many people still would say it gets light at sunrise, and dark around sunset, but the sun neither "rises" or "sets." This is a holdover from the days when people thought the Earth was in the center of the universe. Today, we know better, yet we still use the terms.

Semi trucks did not exist in the early days of the auto industry, yet they would not be able to move if they did not have more gears than the early cars. With more students, more Black Belts, more Instructors, and more levels of Instructorship (apprentice, Associate, Master, Professor, Grandmaster), and with the larger organizations than what existed in the days of Kano and Funakoshi, more grades, and Dan levels make sense. It does not matter to me who created the system (important historically), what country it came from, or how many belts there were originally, I find no problem with adopting a good concept from the past, and expanding it to fit modern needs.

If any so-called "American Martial Art" organizations want to change the number of belts, or do away with it completely, then that is up to them, but I would not vilify those who retain much of the old, yet change it for the modern application. I don't view belts as evidence of skill and knowledge, I view the skill and knowledge as evidence of being worthy of recognition. The belt is one form of visible recognition. If that goes to the head of some people, then that is their issue to deal with.

If my instructor said to me, after years of training, "I am going to give you this small polished stone as a token of your accomplishments," I would cherish that stone because it came as recognition from my instructor. If after years of teaching, he gave me another stone, and then a third and a fourth, and so-on, I would cherish each one. I would not run out to a seaside emporium, and buy a bunch of stones and say, "look! I am a 9 stone Grandmaster!" If the belt stripes, and Dan Certificates are issued to me as recognition from my instructor that I have advanced in the skills, and knowledge that he is teaching me, then it has value and purpose, if only to me. When I see others who have their "stone collection" on display, or on a string around their neck, I can appreciate, and respect the value it has to them.

Once you have learned the insignificance of the belt itself, you don't need it to place a value on your training. However, once you have learned the value of your training, you don't need to do away with the belts. There is a greater meaning to wearing a belt rank than to hold your dobok/gi closed, or to determine who lines up where in class. A sign of maturity in the Martial Art is to discover what that meaning is.

Just my humble opinion on the subject.
CM D. J. Eisenhart
 

Brandon Fisher

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True I knew several godan and above that are very humble about their rank and title. You would never know unless you ask them and then they will tell you but nothing more then what the rank is and on to another subject.
 

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Kasho said:
As we take a look at American martial arts, with the focus being on rank, it is hard to see how we can call our systems American, Practically when most all systems take on the model or structure of karate when forming their levels of rank. Most so called traditional martial arts had their arts originally come from another country, Later changing style names and using terminology from its own land not that of it’s origin, yet most Americans persist in calling themselves a new system but continue to use old terms from other country’s when referring to their own art or as we are focusing on here rank.
Terms like Kup, Kyu and others are used when describing under belt ranks, as Dan is prominent when referring to black belts. However, there are those arts that are traditional at its core that have modernized to an American system but still use these term, rank structure and levels from it’s passed. Some new systems have no terms, rank or levels other than being described as teacher and student, but most new arts still use the old terms.
Black belt degrees have most people going insane trying to figure out there meaning. With some arts having 5 degrees while others 8 and several having 10 degrees.
Many arts today have a 10 Dan system so their art or their instructors have some sense of superiority over others. But truth be know a 10th Dan is only equal to some systems 5th Dan if that is the highest rank of that art.
Taking a look back, a 10th Dan is usually a founder of an art and the rank is usually self-proclaimed or awarded. There are those who have founded associations, that have review board that will many times awards these levels of high rank, most of the time the person receiving the rank is the person that selected or appointed the board members themselves.
There is no set standard as to who may become a tenth Dan. Some arts founders had many years of study before creating their systems while others did so with only months of formal training.
Martial art systems that use the belt and degree or Dan ranks need to remember from where it came. It was Judo founder Jigoro Kano that was the creator of the belt scheme. Not only was he a founder of an art as well as the creator of the belt structure, but he himself never reached his highest level for rank.
His system was 1st to 4th Dan with 5th or above being honorary Dan titles only. His wish was also that when one achieved the highest level of rank they would revert back to wearing a white belt.
As to karate, When Shotokan’s founder Gichin Funakoshi decided to use Kano’s model of black belt ranks (color belts didn’t come till later for both judo and then karate) I do not think he was speaking or acting on behalf of or for all karate systems when in 1924 he awarded the first karate black belts to some of his students. I would also like to say he or they (Kano and Funakoshi) where probably seen as very pompous by most of the martial art world at that time for taking such a strange approach. Either way, like myself I think these two men probable never felt the need to justify their actions to any others in the martial arts.
As the people of the arts world later fall in line with these Dan ranks 1st thru 4th with all higher Dans being honorary or administrative ranks, and with the later added under belt ranks, it was understood that these ranks were for dividing people up based on a general skill level for the sole purpose of administration use and for competition only.
Somewhere along the way we got so tied up (forgive the pun) in belts and rank we have forgotten the true meaning of the belt structure. We must remember that rank is only good with in your school or system. Has this all become a one ups man ship? Or is it something that is being used for marketing while trying to recruit new students? Or maybe it is so association can charge astronomical fees for the higher Dan ranks.
I think today most of us can see the failures of the old Asian rank structure. So were Kano & Funakoshi people of great vision when it came to the belt system? Or were they two of the most destructive people to the arts in history? That in it’s self is a topic of much debate when it comes to their rolls in the incorporation of belts, we will not weigh in on that here but instead let you come to your own conclusion.
The old 12 Dan in Judo (if memory serves) or the 10 Dan systems has allowed egos to run rank rampant. Again the old system was to have these higher ranks for administrators / founders. The problem is to many people think this must mean a person is so much better than a third, forth or fifth Dan being a tenth Dan. These higher ranks for years have been held like a carrot in front of the lower Dan’s noses as a way of keeping them loyal or in line by associations.
Today If using a belt degree structure, the 5 Dan system does not allow for as much abuse as the ten, and is somewhat a break from the old Japanese / Okinawan systems. Another option would be the original menkyo (teachers certificate). Yes I know that I just used an old term here but it is to make some out there aware that this was a term and method used to distinguished ones place in a school or art long before anyone ever thought about those nice looking belts that we wrap around our waists before tying it into that cute little square knot.
So why do we still have rank and the old belt system? You would have thought that when the Korean people wished to kick all the Japanese things out of their arts they would have gotten rid of this rank structure. So it appears to this writer that familiarity, fear and a need of self-importance would be the reasons that many have kept the old way of doing things.

Well some will give up rank when forming a new art and some may cut down on the number of belts and others will teach the true value of rank to their students. Some people still seem to need approval or respect for their new system and feel they must please others by using the old failed 10 Dan system. But as new arts formed in this land I guess they can do as they wish.

Any American art can have any rank or no rank structure if it wishes, and in no way does it (founded/students) have to pay homage to any country if they do not wish.

I guess the whole thing is, in American arts when forming, blending or creating them, and then looking to its classification, maybe they should think long and hard before just falling back on the old ways.


There are no martial law or rules that cannot or if need be can’t be broken. As Americans we are not one to be dictated to. We have paid our martial dues and only have peers but not superiors. We do not have some little need to seek approval of our systems. We need not have some other country sanctioning it. We should now no longer have the need to appease everyone or go by these Asian rules or taboos that hold nothing that is truly significant of value to the arts. Again speaking about American arts/systems we do not need or do we ask permission to do as we wish with our American arts.
It is common curtsy to recognize a persons rank level of another art, although in truth if a person does not have rank in the other person’s art, then to each other they have NO RANK.
Now with all that great stuff said. After 80+ years of belt systems (for karate) it will be hard to extract them all at once. American martial arts are still evolving, and we should take care when deciding the direction we are going to take. Remember we should be about knowledge and abilities not what hangs off our waist.
Not all will agree with what has been written even when being faced with the facts, many will see it as an attack on their rank, art or status....But more accurately it will be a blow to their ego.

B. Reynolds

Welcome to Martial Talk! This was quite an interesting read. Like anything, things are going to change over time. Things that were deemed more traditional in the past, have often been changed. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but what makes it bad, IMHO, is what people focus more of their time on what rank, the number of stripes, etc., that they have on their belt. I think that your last few paragraphs brought up some good points.

Mike
 
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Kasho

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Hi,

First off in response I would just like to say it&#8217;s nice to be here and I hope you all (agree or not) have enjoyed my little post.

I also do not wish to get off subject and make this discussion about me. I know that most people like to know more of whom they are speaking with but I don&#8217;t wish to get off track.

I will say that I have been in the arts for almost three and a half decades and have been a head instructor for over 26 years.

Okay, Rank????

Well some like to talk about keeping thing more traditional. Traditionally there was no rank! For the majority of time there has been no ranking system.

I guess rank could be seen as traditional to the new arts. Many so-called traditional arts of today are only 60/80 years old.

I do necessarily wish to go into so much what make a system American, nor do I wish to discuss the fact that Japan, Korea nor any other country ever asked permission from China to form there own arts or systems (they didn&#8217;t need to). But as we think about it, I don&#8217;t remember China asking India if it would be ok either.

The rank structure was intended for sport and administrative reasons. Ok so that&#8217;s competition and business.

So someone forms a system them bam their a 10th Dan. Does that sound right to you?

How about someone who earn rank because they placed well in a tournament? Well you have to remember that rank was made for sport. And this does happen.

And what about that 10th Dan founder, that doesn&#8217;t sound right. Lets say he has less than two years or training before he founds his system. Boy in America they would be laughed at. Now no one has the right to do that with that little training. But lets look at Tang Soo Do founder Hwang Kee. That&#8217;s just what he did with less than to years of formal training.
Okay so there is a double standard to who can form an art and who may become a legitimate 10th Dan.

All right so there are no set standards to rank. There are people that have been in the arts for most of there lives and have walked a honorable path, earned what they received and have gone on to teach in a respectable manner, but there are far more people that have not.

Okay, so we know what it was (rank) and how it has changed to some degree today, but for the people out there like myself that have been teaching for over twenty-six years (many of you have been for much longer) we have seen such abuse of rank by people and associations for reasons of finical gain or for the almighty ego trip that has many of us&#8230; well just plain sick!

There is nothing wrong with the good old certification, and a reduction of Dan/gup levels could only help reduce the amount of abuse on the MA world and our students.

Most people today that claim high Dan ranks are not seen with any real levels of respect because of the amount of mistrust out there about rank today. This is sad, as there are those that truly deserving of where they are.

Rank doesn&#8217;t mean a heck of a lot, knowledge and ability does as well as all of the good qualities that one can receive form the arts. this is what needs to be focused on, not so much on what the next belt or Dan one might get.

The importance of technique and of art should be ones primary focus not the belt that is being dangled in ones face.

One last thing, It also was intended that once one reached the top level of rank one should return to wearing the white belt (per founder of the rank system Jigoro Kano).


I know, silly me.

B. Reynolds
 

terryl965

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First off Kasho I feel knowing your style and rank is important to this converstation, I believe you have been training for 35 years, not to sound mean or anything, but that could be my own style of coach potatoe od beer drikers of america. When decussing rank and what is or is not, I do not wish to talk to a white belt for 30 years.
I know a man that has been in college for thirty years but yet has not Master one subject so why would I talk to him about being a CPA if he does not have the concept to stay long enough to understand what a CPA raelly is?
Terry
 

DeLamar.J

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Kasho said:
American Martial Arts: Issue of rank

B. Reynolds

There are two reasons for rank.

1. The more belts you have in your system, the more money you make, and it helps pump a persons ego. Most people need/want that fancy belt to make them feel that they are something, even if they are nothing. So by having all that fancy schmancyness, you get to charge more, and make the sheep happy in the process(not the wolves).

2. You have so many students, that you can't remember where everyone of them are in your system. So you rank them according to what they have learned.
 

Bigshadow

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Someone who spends enough time to write essays lamenting about how unimportant rank is, must find some value in rank. :idunno:
 

Flying Crane

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Last Fearner said:
Sometimes, these discussions make it appear that anyone who uses rank (especially above 4th Dan) has an ego problem...

If my instructor said to me, after years of training, "I am going to give you this small polished stone as a token of your accomplishments," I would cherish that stone because it came as recognition from my instructor. If after years of teaching, he gave me another stone, and then a third and a fourth, and so-on, I would cherish each one. I would not run out to a seaside emporium, and buy a bunch of stones and say, "look! I am a 9 stone Grandmaster!" If the belt stripes, and Dan Certificates are issued to me as recognition from my instructor that I have advanced in the skills, and knowledge that he is teaching me, then it has value and purpose, if only to me. When I see others who have their "stone collection" on display, or on a string around their neck, I can appreciate, and respect the value it has to them.


Just my humble opinion on the subject.
CM D. J. Eisenhart

Good points made here.

However, in your example you make reference to receiving recognition from your instructor, even multiple times. I see nothing wrong with this. What I do see something wrong with is the self-promotions, the promotions given among friends as members of an organization, and promotions given to an instructor by his/her students. I think a lot of the high level rankings are acquired in these more dubious ways. Of course this creates a dilemma because at some point SOMEONE had to assume the high rank to begin with, in order to be able to "legitimately" pass on high rank to others. So where does it start, and where does it end? I don't know.

The other problem I see is in the advertising. Even tho we know rank does not translate from one system to another, I believe rank is used commercially and presented as if it does translate. The general public does not understand this. So the ability of one instructor to advertise his higher rank will get him more students than the guy down the street who advertises a lower rank, even tho the systems may be completely different and it is an apples/oranges comparison. I think this is deliberately deceptive and done purely for marketing reasons by many people.

My biggest problem with the really high rankings that some people claim, such as 7th and up, is the general assumption that at some point in one's martial career this rank is simply deserved. This "entitlement mentality" is something that I see as more typical of Americans than some other cultures. Just because they have been training for 30 or 40 years means that they simply deserve the rank, and I think that is nonsense. These high ranks should be truly rare, but instead they become common as dirt. In some arts you can't shake a tree without a dozen of them falling on your head. Now these individuals may certainly be highly skilled and talented, even gifted martial artists. I am not arguing about skill. But just because they are skilled does not mean that they automatically deserve the highest ranks. They would still be just as skilled as a 4th or 5th or 6th degree. Assuming the rank of 10th degree won't change this any. I think this is where the ego really comes into play.
 
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Kasho

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Okay,

As someone that has been ranked in the top ten (two circuits, Black belt divisions) in sport MA, owned a MA supply company, former president of a MA circuit, contracted employee in a school system to teach ma, work in a fitness center teaching, work with many organizations, been a adviser to a world association, a moderator on one ma board as well as having my own board. Hosting events (workshops) with world rated champions as well as having a goodwill gold metal winner who was also an arbitrator on the circuit I was president of. Having many high Dan members that I train with as well as who also seeking my advice on instruction that are friends and colleagues, having two of my past instructors participate in what I do as well as invite me to participate in their events shows a great deal of respect for me and what I do. I also have hosted and promote demonstrations of various traditional styles. Tournament promoter and have received awards by traditional instructors for improving the ma in my area. I am currently reviewing a book on a traditional art before publication. I have done my share to help promote and improve the Martial arts.

I think it is easy to see by my post that I have been around, done that and know what I am talking about. Again we are talking about experience, knowledge and ability as being what is important. Or at least it should be.

Many here (on both sides) are posting as a knee jerk reaction, while others are taking more time to think about this issue.

Rank has no standards, and history (if you care about it) has many founders claiming high rank with little training and by also claiming to have mastered two arts by the age of 22.

Look most people here have no rank in whatever arts that others here study. Of course your instructor has no rank to me like I may have no rank in his/ her (politically correct) art. But I shown respect for knowledge, time and ability.

As to rank, many for the last 14/17 months have discussed this subject and it has had people reducing or dropping all rank from their styles/system, from northern Ohio to Florida and I am sure other places as well.

If people choose to keep rank that&#8217;s fine, reduce rank, great! Drop it, also good. Everyone will not change or respect changes that take place.

Most all masters of the past have said that the arts change and should, so why do so many people not wish to not listen to these respected leaders?

Gichin Funakoshi (someone that said things should change) when adding rank to karate, did he ask permission from the ma world, Did he ask when he changed the characters to what we now know as karate? No.

Today is not the past, these passed masters where wish enough to know that. Change takes place, will take place and no permission is needed.

Thanks for the posts,

B. Reynolds
 

terryl965

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Mr Reynolds, I would assume in your Bio you state that your style is Kasho Martial Art what is that style? Is it Karate base, Judo base or a MMA base style?

How long did it take you to develope your style and what seperates it from all other styles?

As far as too your comment here:

As someone that has been ranked in the top ten (two circuits, Black belt divisions) in sport MA, owned a MA supply company, former president of a MA circuit, contracted employee in a school system to teach ma, work in a fitness center teaching, work with many organizations, been a adviser to a world association, a moderator on one ma board as well as having my own board. Hosting events (workshops) with world rated champions as well as having a goodwill gold metal winner who was also an arbitrator on the circuit I was president of. Having many high Dan members that I train with as well as who also seeking my advice on instruction that are friends and colleagues, having two of my past instructors participate in what I do as well as invite me to participate in their events shows a great deal of respect for me and what I do. I also have hosted and promote demonstrations of various traditional styles. Tournament promoter and have received awards by traditional instructors for improving the ma in my area. I am currently reviewing a book on a traditional art before publication. I have done my share to help promote and improve the Martial arts.

I too can say the same as above with over forty years in been on the circuit and have had multiple champion in alot of different organization, although never had my own chat line
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What is it you are hoping to accomplish do away with rank here in America( never will happen).
Get everybody on one page( never will happen)
Bring the dignity back to MA( never will happen)

People here as well as the rest of the world need a gauge to see there success, we have it in the classrooms as well as in the work place and by the way I own companys not work for them so before you say I need this and that you are right we all do.

My last concern here about this subject is why when ask about your style or Rank you cannot or will not just answer the question with a proper response instead of I done this and that.

Just for the record Tae Kwon Do 4th Dan and Okinawa Karate 5th Dan, I own and operate my own school and I follow my father and Grand Master teaching.

I hope I have not offended you in any way, it is not my intention here.
Terry
 
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