Self Traning and Ranking Group

[Mithios]

For my part I simply do not see the point in it when we can go farther by stressing our similarities. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Mr. Sim's, Are you talking about a study group approach(kwan?), where A group of people get together and exchange ideas, techniques, etc. Without worrying about rank or being in charge? I think that is what you are saying, But i don't think everyone is on the same page! I for one, am all for that sort of approach. It would be a nice change from most of the organizational crap i see today! A person could be a member of an org. for rank, etc. And still be a part of the study group, correct, or no ??? Mithios

 

[Skitzo]

sorry if I mixed up Bruces' site with Master Lugo's or Master Lugo's with Master Bruces.... too much reading - my eyes hurt ;-)

All this talk about schools of thought and technique....I just returned from from a 6 hour seminar with Master Christopher Diliberto (7th Dan) under the Kenshi Kai of Okinawa in Bujutuse... REALLY advanced and actually hard to absorb - however, for a style of Karate which originated on Okinawa hundreds of years ago - I saw a lot of similarities in the Hapkido school. (WHA)

I think with all this debate on standards, and programs and belt requirements don't you think the various Hapkido Associations and Federations could get together on this?

I'm no historian...all I know is what I was taught under the WHA in Korea... the American system seems to be radically different (ie. I rarely threw a roundhouse kick before I returned to Canada - also, I NEVER threw a kick above the waist. - never mind which techniques/locks fall under which belt level (and even how many belt levels are being used at various schools).

Doug

 

[Skitzo]

Has anyone ever looked at these tapes?

http://www.bongsoohanhapkido.com/videos.htm

It's not as if I actually have over $400.00 to spend on videos (I'd rather have DVD's anyhow) but perhaps this could be an avenue....

Speaking of DVD's - I do have some stuff I recorded and converted to DVD - anyone want to trade?

e-mail me at:

[email protected]

 

[ajs1976]

I don't know how good the videos are, but check out www.budovideos.com for a better price. About $200 for the set. http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=254&page=3

They seem to regularly sell them on ebay.

 

[kwanjang]

Hello all,

Bruce, again, I do understand that, but these organizations now state rather emphatically that they are not Hapkido. So would it make more sense to draw from Hapkido organziations and if someone from these groups wanted to join, they could see you standard as a purely Hapkido one?

Hello Kevin:
Does that mean "if" YOUR former Instructor now says he teaches something other than Hap Ki Do, all of a sudden you never practised Hap Ki DO????

 

[American HKD]

Hello Kevin:
Does that mean "if" YOUR former Instructor now says he teaches something other than Hap Ki Do, all of a sudden you never practised Hap Ki DO????

Kevin,

I think what Rudy's means is no matter what someone call the Art it's still the same. "A rose by any othwr name" In therory he's right and I agree.

However will anyone give you or I a 4th or 5th dan in Kuk Sool or Hwrang do I don't think so, that's what makes us separate no matter who says it's the same.

So the people who seperate themselves be it us or them are at some kind of fault so to speak.

The problem with that type of thinking is there should'nt be any styles just Martial Arts and one rank for everyone.

 

[The Prof]

Greetings,

I find it very sad that so many Martial Artists have gone the route of self grading. It has taken the honor away from what was once considered "The Highly Revered and Most Coveted Black Belt."

I see so many "Masters" who are in their twenties. These kids have not even mastered life yet, how can they possibly master a martial art?

No matter how you slice it, the right way is the best way. Stick it out with your Sensei, accumulate many years of continued hard training. Build a respectable reputation not only within, but outside your dojo and community.

Most importantly, stay away from the fakers and organizations that are formed for the purpose of legitimizing fraudulent rank and grade. In other words, "resist temptation." Honor and Integrity should never be compromized.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mithios:

"......Mr. Sim's, Are you talking about a study group approach(kwan?), where A group of people get together and exchange ideas, techniques, etc. Without worrying about rank or being in charge? I think that is what you are saying, But i don't think everyone is on the same page! I for one, am all for that sort of approach. It would be a nice change from most of the organizational crap i see today! A person could be a member of an org. for rank, etc. And still be a part of the study group, correct, or no ???........"

You are on the right track, but I need to tweak something here so that people don't develop a misunderstanding.

I belong to the Yon Mu Kwan, and as a traditionalist I believe in the "kwan" or "study group" model. GM Myung is the mentor for the Yon Mu Kwan and as such, if I had questions or needed guidance he is the person to whom I would turn. Having said that, I can say, "yes" to your question. However, participating in such an activity would not mean that a person was automatically a member of the Yon Mu Kwan. It doesn't work like that. I just want to make sure that while I am advocating a "kwan" or "study group" approach that it does not bespeak membership of some established group. A study group such as one that might get together would simply be the sort of experience you are characterizing with exchanges, comparisons and the like.
For instance, I could see people getting together to address a question such as "what ground-fighting techniques might reasonably be expected for a Hapkido practitioner to know". In the YMK Hapkido we do have ground-fighting techniques but nothing like say BJJ. Since the Minimal Standards project is not beholding to a particular Hapkido art or style there is no reason a person could not discuss or make a case for including material that might help make Hapkido ground-fighting safer or better trained, yes? Compare to this an event where things are conducted under the Yon Mu Kwan and one of the first strictures would be to work within the guidelines of that kwan ("Developement", "Training", "Integrity", "Service"). Similar but not identical. Just wanted to make sure everyone was clear on the difference. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

I find it very sad that so many Martial Artists have gone the route of self grading. It has taken the honor away from what was once considered "The Highly Revered and Most Coveted Black Belt."

I see so many "Masters" who are in their twenties. These kids have not even mastered life yet, how can they possibly master a martial art?

No matter how you slice it, the right way is the best way. Stick it out with your Sensei, accumulate many years of continued hard training. Build a respectable reputation not only within, but outside your dojo and community.

Most importantly, stay away from the fakers and organizations that are formed for the purpose of legitimizing fraudulent rank and grade. In other words, "resist temptation." Honor and Integrity should never be compromized.

Dear Prof,

Many of the founders of Korean Arts post WW2 were in thier twenties when they established well known systems of today while still in there Twenties.

Even in this country there was Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, James Mitose, and many others FWIW.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".......Many of the founders of Korean Arts post WW2 were in thier twenties when they established well known systems of today FWIW....."

I think I appreciate what you are saying, but we must also consider how much the KMA has suffered do to the immaturity and inexperience these folks had when they started their respective efforts. IMVHO had these folks been in their, say, 40-s and developed under the guidance of a senior I think the result would have been much different. As it is, we live in a KMA community in which there are many artificial divisions, some for no more reason that the originator was LOOKING for a way to make himself different from his peers. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Mithios:

"......Mr. Sim's, Are you talking about a study group approach(kwan?), where A group of people get together and exchange ideas, techniques, etc. Without worrying about rank or being in charge? I think that is what you are saying, But i don't think everyone is on the same page! I for one, am all for that sort of approach. It would be a nice change from most of the organizational crap i see today! A person could be a member of an org. for rank, etc. And still be a part of the study group, correct, or no ???........"

You are on the right track, but I need to tweak something here so that people don't develop a misunderstanding.

I belong to the Yon Mu Kwan, and as a traditionalist I believe in the "kwan" or "study group" model. GM Myung is the mentor for the Yon Mu Kwan and as such, if I had questions or needed guidance he is the person to whom I would turn. Having said that, I can say, "yes" to your question. However, participating in such an activity would not mean that a person was automatically a member of the Yon Mu Kwan. It doesn't work like that. I just want to make sure that while I am advocating a "kwan" or "study group" approach that it does not bespeak membership of some established group. A study group such as one that might get together would simply be the sort of experience you are characterizing with exchanges, comparisons and the like.
For instance, I could see people getting together to address a question such as "what ground-fighting techniques might reasonably be expected for a Hapkido practitioner to know". In the YMK Hapkido we do have ground-fighting techniques but nothing like say BJJ. Since the Minimal Standards project is not beholding to a particular Hapkido art or style there is no reason a person could not discuss or make a case for including material that might help make Hapkido ground-fighting safer or better trained, yes? Compare to this an event where things are conducted under the Yon Mu Kwan and one of the first strictures would be to work within the guidelines of that kwan ("Developement", "Training", "Integrity", "Service"). Similar but not identical. Just wanted to make sure everyone was clear on the difference. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Ground techniques are a good idea and I have some background in Bjj etc.

There are many, many techniques from the ground and most tradtional HKD people wont be able to discuss this subject properly as to what basics should be learned.

Also I can tell you the Bjj stuff does'nt really follow the premise of HKD theory and would seem as though it's from another system.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".....Many of the founders of Korean Arts post WW2 were in thier twenties when they established well known systems of today FWIW....."

Yes, and I, for one, would want to be careful about mixng arts. All the same, even with the limited number of grounded techniques that we have, if I were to find some teaching tips, safety considerations and points of view to consider that would make the teaching/learning more effective I could see using the resource. After all there are little tips I use from a variety of MA to help teach my Hapkido better and I have ever been amazed at how reluctant Hapkido people are to gether and even share THIS information. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Kevin:
Does that mean "if" YOUR former Instructor now says he teaches something other than Hap Ki Do, all of a sudden you never practised Hap Ki DO????

Hello all,

First, I NEVER said anything, the Hwarangdo and Kuksoolwon organizations have published for twenty years that they are not Hapkido...and I think Rudy that you are looking at this TOTALLY backwards - if your instructor, for more than twenty years was the second in command of an organization that said they do not teach Hapkido, then for whatever reason left that organization, do they suddenly teach Hapkido? By their own published reports dating in my possession from 1985, they say NO.

 

[iron_ox]

Kevin,

I think what Rudy's means is no matter what someone call the Art it's still the same. "A rose by any othwr name" In therory he's right and I agree.

However will anyone give you or I a 4th or 5th dan in Kuk Sool or Hwrang do I don't think so, that's what makes us separate no matter who says it's the same.

So the people who seperate themselves be it us or them are at some kind of fault so to speak.

The problem with that type of thinking is there should'nt be any styles just Martial Arts and one rank for everyone.

Hello Stuart,

Sorry, I will have to disagree. An art with throws that purports to be Hapkido may not be Hapkido - I don't go for the "rose" theory BECAUSE these organizations themselves SAY they are not Hapkido.

Kuksoolwon and Hwarrangdo claim to be separate, great for them, that is their right to do so, but don't come back after twenty years and say, "well, actually we are Hapkido, and high ranking at that..." - I just don't buy that line - they created the line of BS, now they can stay caught in it.

I feel that there is no fault here, they wanted to be separate, made the claim to be not Hapkido long ago, and should be happy that we are now all in agreeance with them - they are not Hapkido. This is not my opinion, but just restateing THEIR party line, and happy to help them out.

 

[Kumbajah]

My take on guide for ground fighting in Hapkido - All though not stressed it is consistent with Hapkido principles. All the standing locks work just as well on the ground. An arm bar works on the same principle no matter what part of the body you use to bar the arm (ie forearm, armpit, belly, knee, thigh etc. You are still using the opponents momentum and strength against him. No matter what sort of base your opponent has there is a way to unbalance him and use it to your advantage. I think that some categories to be addressed - locks (shoulder, elbow, wrist, finger, knee/leg, neck, and back/spine.) Chokes ( naked, corticoid, smother ), Pins (whole body, arm, leg, combination) and pressure points/strikes. The entry and positioning would be the x factor. How you get from point x to one of the aforementioned categories or out of them. Other aspects although not hapkido per say but found in all ground fighting - bridging and shrimping but they are consistent with unbalancing principles of Hapkido.

Brian

 

[American HKD]

My take on guide for ground fighting in Hapkido - All though not stressed it is consistent with Hapkido principles. All the standing locks work just as well on the ground. An arm bar works on the same principle no matter what part of the body you use to bar the arm (ie forearm, armpit, belly, knee, thigh etc. You are still using the opponents momentum and strength against him. No matter what sort of base your opponent has there is a way to unbalance him and use it to your advantage. I think that some categories to be addressed - locks (shoulder, elbow, wrist, finger, knee/leg, neck, and back/spine.) Chokes ( naked, corticoid, smother ), Pins (whole body, arm, leg, combination) and pressure points/strikes. The entry and positioning would be the x factor. How you get from point x to one of the aforementioned categories or out of them. Other aspects although not hapkido per say but found in all ground fighting - bridging and shrimping but they are consistent with unbalancing principles of Hapkido.

Brian

Dear Brian,

You beat me to it. I was going to respond to Bruce saying a very similar thing.

In Hapkido we have the techniques. What many don't have is the expirience to put it to practical use. There are a few Samuri Ryu that do know how to fight from the ground and it looks nothing like Judo or BJJ and in fact there doing what we should be doing.

We need progressive instructors to reseach and teach how to use our techniques on the ground properly mainly positioning from place to place on the ground. I for one am working on it the stuff.

 

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart,

Sorry, I will have to disagree. An art with throws that purports to be Hapkido may not be Hapkido - I don't go for the "rose" theory BECAUSE these organizations themselves SAY they are not Hapkido.

Kuksoolwon and Hwarrangdo claim to be separate, great for them, that is their right to do so, but don't come back after twenty years and say, "well, actually we are Hapkido, and high ranking at that..." - I just don't buy that line - they created the line of BS, now they can stay caught in it.

I feel that there is no fault here, they wanted to be separate, made the claim to be not Hapkido long ago, and should be happy that we are now all in agreeance with them - they are not Hapkido. This is not my opinion, but just restateing THEIR party line, and happy to help them out.

Kev,

You misunderstood my comment I agree with you, at the same time I was trying to explain Rudy's point to you.

 

[Mithios]

Dear Mithios:

You are on the right track, but I need to tweak something here so that people don't develop a misunderstanding.

I belong to the Yon Mu Kwan, and as a traditionalist I believe in the "kwan" or "study group" model. GM Myung is the mentor for the Yon Mu Kwan and as such, if I had questions or needed guidance he is the person to whom I would turn. Having said that, I can say, "yes" to your question. However, participating in such an activity would not mean that a person was automatically a member of the Yon Mu Kwan. It doesn't work like that. I just want to make sure that while I am advocating a "kwan" or "study group" approach that it does not bespeak membership of some established group. A study group such as one that might get together would simply be the sort of experience you are characterizing with exchanges, comparisons and the like.
For instance, I could see people getting together to address a question such as "what ground-fighting techniques might reasonably be expected for a Hapkido practitioner to know". In the YMK Hapkido we do have ground-fighting techniques but nothing like say BJJ. Since the Minimal Standards project is not beholding to a particular Hapkido art or style there is no reason a person could not discuss or make a case for including material that might help make Hapkido ground-fighting safer or better trained, yes? Compare to this an event where things are conducted under the Yon Mu Kwan and one of the first strictures would be to work within the guidelines of that kwan ("Developement", "Training", "Integrity", "Service"). Similar but not identical. Just wanted to make sure everyone was clear on the difference. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Ahhhh, Thank you for the clarification. Sound's good to me!

 

[kwanjang]

Kevin,

I think what Rudy's means is no matter what someone call the Art it's still the same. "A rose by any othwr name" In therory he's right and I agree....

Stuart:
That is precisely what I mean. Some folks change names and claim or disclaim allegiances because it furthers their own cause, and those who faithfully worked their butts off have no say in the matter whatsoever.

GM Suh (not Seo) sent me certificates from Korea back in the sixties that clearly state Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do, and recent visits to Korea confirm that there are lots of people still practising that art.

Later, in Marc Tedeschi's book, GM Suh claims there never WAS such an organization. Dr. Kimm made references to the same organization (of which he was a major player); however, for whatever reason, it now seems to suit GM Suh's cause more to deny this org. ever existed. Unfortunately for him, there is just too much contradictory evidence to support his latest claims... and that is the way it is with Korean martial art history

Self-serving statements that have little to do with truth leave false impressions to those who do not know the whole story. Good reason not to make hasty decisions.

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Stuart,

...Kuksoolwon and Hwarrangdo claim to be separate, great for them, that is their right to do so, but don't come back after twenty years and say, "well, actually we are Hapkido, and high ranking at that..." - I just don't buy that line - they created the line of BS, now they can stay caught in it.

I feel that there is no fault here, they wanted to be separate, made the claim to be not Hapkido long ago, and should be happy that we are now all in agreeance with them - they are not Hapkido. This is not my opinion, but just restateing THEIR party line, and happy to help them out.

Kevin. What you are saying is that the top dogs change their stories. That does not mean that the litter EVER changed what they learned and continue to teach.