Reality check... would the world implode if you couldnt get Kukkiwon certification?

[leadleg]

No offense intended, but that's the exact kind of snobbery that can be off-putting. It should suffice to say that KKW certification is relevant to YOU because it can be a measure of sorts for the physical skills important to YOUR practice of TKD.

Others can and do find differently, in which case another certification (or even none) might be more preferable to them.

I am not trying to be snobby,but as you said for my situation,KKW/WTF stylist, any other paper does not tell me anything.
I have had many bb's come to my school, we used to be the only TKD around, from ata itf and joe's tkd,each had certification but none new the same requirements.Even the same certificate (example itf) would not mean the same,some bobbed up and down some didn't,some hissed some did not.They all could fit in after a while and worked to get their KKW but it was not like a KKW certified BB came in the door, family member!
By the way this could be another thread but BB'S from other schools are a pain to train.

 

[dancingalone]

I am not trying to be snobby,but as you said for my situation,KKW/WTF stylist, any other paper does not tell me anything.
I have had many bb's come to my school, we used to be the only TKD around, from ata itf and joe's tkd,each had certification but none new the same requirements.Even the same certificate (example itf) would not mean the same,some bobbed up and down some didn't,some hissed some did not.They all could fit in after a while and worked to get their KKW but it was not like a KKW certified BB came in the door, family member!
By the way this could be another thread but BB'S from other schools are a pain to train.

It's an interesting conundrum as tae kwon do continues to evolve and fragment at the same time. It's true enough that what Olympic hopefuls focus on is 100% in the opposite direction from what I teach in my tae kwon do.

I agree that trying to teach a student with prior experience elsewhere can be challenging, particular if we have specific curriculum we want them to learn AND groove in.

 

[leadleg]

well firstly, kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomsae, free sparring, hand striking drills, breaking.................are all things done at most schools, I did all those things when I did karate as a kid. We dont use korean words for kicks. In fact, in manny's posts where he talks about kicks using korean names I cant understand a thing. Our time in dan grades is different. we dont have "skip dans". I had never heard the term 'poomsae' until I came here. Punches in sparring are expected to be delivered as often as kicks, maybe even more. We dont do points sparring (we tried at the club championships but it didnt really work). I have trained with kukki guys and what they do looks different , particularly the shorter stances, our stances are always very deep similar to when I did karate as a kid. they also have a much bigger emphasis on higher kicks than we do, all our kicking drills are aimed between the knee and solar plexus, if we want to practice head kicks we do it in our own time. As for our instructors, they never bag out on the kukki, in fact they dont even discuss politics, orgs etc. We just get there and train and dont worry about that stuff. As I said recently, when discussing the kukki with a 4th dan at my club recently, he replied "whats a kukkiwon?", he wasnt trying to be disrespectful, he had just never heard of them. Im not saying we are completely different to a kukki club, but I would be way out of my depth in one, it would take me so long to try and learn a new form set alone that I may as well just start over at white belt. The shorter stances (do you call them walking stance in the kukki?, Ive been told about a 'walking stance' but have never done one to my knowledge) in the taegeks would be hard to learn after getting 30 push ups everytime my stance is too short for the last 5 years.

I took karate(shotokan style) as a child we did not do kicking drills or breaking.Our self defense was our kicking and hand strikes,including scratching.It was not like TKD.
Later I did mu duk kwan wtf tkd there our stances were very wide and low,you needed a stepladder to get out of the backstances.
The idea that kicking and fighting should not be as natural as walking is not KKW,you are correct there.
As for learning new forms, I do not get the problem,after wrapping your brain aroung doing those floor patterns it is easy to pick up new ones.Was it that hard learning the palgwe's?
Lastly you did say your instructors yelled out" this aint olympic style sparring you see on tv" as a way to remind you to keep your hands up so that sounds like bagging to me.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am sorry to keep coming back to this but you are acting like you are doing some original style but are actually doing half *** kkw tkd.

In fairness to Ralph, he's describing what is being taught in his dojang and sees it as being different from how Kukki taekwondo is described.

I suspect that there are number of outside influences. Deep stances are reminiscent of Shotokan. Punching is emphasized, so I would be curious as to whether the punching resembles taekwondo punching or western boxing punching. It is not uncommon for older schools in the US to have deep stances and western boxing influencing the hand techniques. Such schools found their groove and simply kept doing what they were doing. Neither good nor bad; it simply is a product of the time period. Ten to twenty years from now, we'll be having the same discussions with people describing 'old school taekwondo' as having a larger grappling and groundfighting element because their school added it at a time when grappling and groundfighting had become popular and simply retained their curriculum.

Because most students are not versed on what taekwondo historically is or isn't, they will simply assume that because their sixty year old master who's been training in 'taekwondo' for forty years does it that it must be old school.

Daniel

 

[leadleg]

It's an interesting conundrum as tae kwon do continues to evolve and fragment at the same time. It's true enough that what Olympic hopefuls focus on is 100% in the opposite direction from what I teach in my tae kwon do.

I agree that trying to teach a student with prior experience elsewhere can be challenging, particular if we have specific curriculum we want them to learn AND groove in.

In most of the KKW schools I know of the competiton students are about 10 percent of the total student base,I know of some competition only schools who are larger but those students are mostly like your high school sports jocks.
Our school is out to turn out well rounded martial artist, if you want to compete we have classes we do just for that,I love to coach fighters and I like seeing my students winning poomse competitions.
If you want to advance in grade you must learn all the requirements whether you are a competitor or not.If you are not a competitor you must still spar. If you wish to become an instructor you must at some point compete in a national tournament.
All our bb's know and are strong in self defense and free sparring,training in knees and elbows,and most everything in between.Ever since aids came about I quit teaching biting
I am a bb in HKD so I teach a lot of s/d from that prospective as well as seperate HKD classes that any TKD bb can attend free.
So while we are a KKW style TKD school we are just as much or more about martial arts in general, and I see a lot of schools that are similar. I would not generalise too much about what a school is like just because they like to do full contact style olympic sparring,or do natural stances like KKW stylist do.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Seriously... if you couldn't get Kukkiwon certificate would it REALY effect you? Come on... be honest.

No.

Pax,

Chris

 

[leadleg]

In fairness to Ralph, he's describing what is being taught in his dojang and sees it as being different from how Kukki taekwondo is described.

I suspect that there are number of outside influences. Deep stances are reminiscent of Shotokan. Punching is emphasized, so I would be curious as to whether the punching resembles taekwondo punching or western boxing punching. It is not uncommon for older schools in the US to have deep stances and western boxing influencing the hand techniques. Such schools found their groove and simply kept doing what they were doing. Neither good nor bad; it simply is a product of the time period. Ten to twenty years from now, we'll be having the same discussions with people describing 'old school taekwondo' as having a larger grappling and groundfighting element because their school added it at a time when grappling and groundfighting had become popular and simply retained their curriculum.

Because most students are not versed on what taekwondo historically is or isn't, they will simply assume that because their sixty year old master who's been training in 'taekwondo' for forty years does it that it must be old school.

Daniel

Darn,tried to edit that last comment out but not in time,I apologise to Ralph for the crass statement.

 

[Miles]

It's an interesting conundrum as tae kwon do continues to evolve and fragment at the same time.

I don't think TKD is fragmenting, and a huge reason for what I perceive as unity is the Kukkiwon. I do however, believe TKD is evolving, and that's a good thing from my perspective.

But back to my original point. I view the Kukkiwon as a unifying force within TKD. Through its dan certification, its Instructor certification, its website, its books and videos, the Kukkiwon is trying to have Taekwondoin perform a given syllabus in a particular manner with the same terminology. I understand that many people like to take shots at the Kukkiwon for whatever reason, but my personal experience has always been overwhelmingly positive.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No.

Pax,

Chris

I beg to differ. Planetary implosion will affect us all!



Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

When does something evolve (or devolve or stay static compared to the parent) to the point that it no longer deserves the label?

Not sure about Ralph's situation, but I teach the General Choi forms, realizing they are called the Chang Hon forms. At the same time, I'm very uncomfortable saying I teach Chang Hon because I do not teach the forms according to the last specifications General Choi left. I also add in a good amount of kata ideas from Okinawan karate which would certainly separate our TKD from most others.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'll let Glenn answer for himself, but I do not think it better. I do think that if you are teaching Kukkiwon taekwondo, it raises an eyebrow for me if you aren't issuing them, but outside of that, I don't see it as necessarilly better.

This is interesting, and I don't say I disagree (nor do I necessarily agree). But how does this differ from having someone raise their eyebrow at you for only issuing a school certificate for hapkido and (IIRC) kumdo?

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Maybe your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing. I mean if what you are doing is so completely unrecognizable to Kukki Taekwondoin, then perhaps a name change is in order. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Glenn, have you considered asking the KKW to change the name of the art they practice to Taesoodo? Since, obviously, what they're doing isn't so completely different from what Gen. Choi envisioned Taekwon-Do as being? You can't have your cake and eat it, too, after all.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

I don't think TKD is fragmenting, and a huge reason for what I perceive as unity is the Kukkiwon. I do however, believe TKD is evolving, and that's a good thing from my perspective.

But back to my original point. I view the Kukkiwon as a unifying force within TKD. Through its dan certification, its Instructor certification, its website, its books and videos, the Kukkiwon is trying to have Taekwondoin perform a given syllabus in a particular manner with the same terminology. I understand that many people like to take shots at the Kukkiwon for whatever reason, but my personal experience has always been overwhelmingly positive.

Well, from my perspective, I continue to see people study various TKD styles, and new ones are being formed all the time. Some of these will stand the test of time, most surely won't, but I don't ever envision everyone doing the same thing, learning the same curricula or even holding membership in the same organization.

I also believe the KKW can be a positive influence on TKD. Build something good and people will line up to join. No need to push anything else.

 

[DMcHenry]

Seriously... if you couldn't get Kukkiwon certificate would it REALY effect you? Come on... be honest.

No, not at all. I must admit my base/main style is TangSooDo, but I do help teach in a KKW dojang and have a KKW Cert. My original goal was to be able to work with KKW TKD transfers into TSD and help them maintain their certifications. I am interested in practicing and keeping up on the KKW poomse, but not currently interested in getting KKW certification. It's just not personally something I'm interested in, I just enjoy the training and being able to relate to other TKD students.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is interesting, and I don't say I disagree (nor do I necessarily agree). But how does this differ from having someone raise their eyebrow at you for only issuing a school certificate for hapkido and (IIRC) kumdo?

Pax,

Chris

It differs because one is a specific organizational curriculum (KKW TKD) and the other two are martial arts with multiple organizations, flavors, and independents, neither of which have a KKW equivalent. I would also raise an eyebrow if the school taught an ATA curriculum but did not issue ATA certification.

My certificates from my GM are essentially school certificates because even though they say Korean _______ Federation on them, his federations are basically just him with two schools plus a handful of senior students teaching on their own who have him sign off on dan certs. The curriculum that is taught in both is assembled by GM Kim. None of the material is 'original' with regards to techniques, but the curriculum does not directly follow that of any established organization.

What raises an eyebrow for me is the full usage of an organization's curriculum without giving students certification from that organiztion. That tells me that either the school owner is not high enough rank to issue a KKW cert (and if its a small club with no fees, but a kitty for nominal expenses and pizza, that is fine), has the juice to issue the cert but chooses not to for his or her own reasons, that the instructor himself has a school certificate of a higher grade but has no KKW ranking, or that the instructor is a practitioner of another art and learned the KKW forms on Youtube or from a book in order to cash in on taekwondo. Seen that done once by a Shotokan guy who deceded to cash in on Tai chi.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

I beg to differ. Planetary implosion will affect us all!



Daniel

Wrong again! Apparently your KKW certificate is quite useless when it comes to surviving having the planet getting destroyed out from underneath you. That's just one more reason why I won't get one of those things!

Pax,

Chris

 

[leadleg]

When does something evolve (or devolve or stay static compared to the parent) to the point that it no longer deserves the label?

Not sure about Ralph's situation, but I teach the General Choi forms, realizing they are called the Chang Hon forms. At the same time, I'm very uncomfortable saying I teach Chang Hon because I do not teach the forms according to the last specifications General Choi left. I also add in a good amount of kata ideas from Okinawan karate which would certainly separate our TKD from most others.

This is an interesting point,while I teach many things not in the KKW requirements,I do teach all the requirements for KKW so consider myself KKW stylist. We teach weapons also some Chinese some Japanese etc..
I still consider my school TKD even though all these add ons have nothing to do with TKD.
I wonder what these poor students will think they do after generations of them are teaching later on.

 

[dancingalone]

What raises an eyebrow for me is the full usage of an organization's curriculum without giving students certification from that organiztion. That tells me that either the school owner is not high enough rank to issue a KKW cert (and if its a small club with no fees, but a kitty for nominal expenses and pizza, that is fine), has the juice to issue the cert but chooses not to for his or her own reasons, that the instructor himself has a school certificate of a higher grade but has no KKW ranking, or that the instructor is a practitioner of another art and learned the KKW forms on Youtube or from a book in order to cash in on taekwondo. Seen that done once by a Shotokan guy who deceded to cash in on Tai chi.

But who does that? People who leave organizations generally change their curriculum, if only for legal reasons if we're talking ATA.

With regard to KKW, I thought the requirements were quite minimal anyway, like learning the Taegeuks, and thus most schools add additional material on their own. I don't think it's unusual for people to drift away from the KKW while still teaching KKW forms, albeit not to the KKW's current poomsae specs. GM Kim Soo for example uses the Palgwe forms in his Chayon-ryu system while also teaching the karate kata and chuan fa sets.

 

[chrispillertkd]

It differs because one is a specific organizational curriculum (KKW TKD) and the other two are martial arts with multiple organizations, flavors, and independents, neither of which have a KKW equivalent. I would also raise an eyebrow if the school taught an ATA curriculum but did not issue ATA certification.

But there are people on this thread who are questioning why one would teach KKW patterns, do KKW sparring, etc. but belong to a different organization. Which shows that there are, in fact, multiple organizations that do KKW Taekwon-Do, just like there are multiple organizations that teach ITF Taekwon-Do. The KKW isn't and has never been the only game in town even for KKW Taekwon-Do.

The KKW and the ITF are the biggest and best known of the organizations that teach their respective styles, but they certainly aren't the only ones. Your argument about hapkido and kumdo can certainly be made regarding getting certified by the ITF or KKW.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Wrong again! Apparently your KKW certificate is quite useless when it comes to surviving having the planet getting destroyed out from underneath you. That's just one more reason why I won't get one of those things!

Pax,

Chris

Kukki certification causes kukki rankholders' portions of the planet to be out of phase with the rest of the planet, thus insuring Kukki-continuance. Should the planet actually implode, the Kukki parts of the Earth will form a smaller sphere that will hurtle through space, with a space ship called the Kukki-1 to explore where we're heading (Or was that Space 1999?).

Additionally, each new blackbelt also pushes back planetary implosion by one year, and each new degree earned still another year.

Thus the Kukkiwon slogan:

The Kukkiwon: Staving Off Planetary Implosion Since 1973.

Daniel