Reality check... would the world implode if you couldnt get Kukkiwon certification?

[miguksaram]

Seriously... if you couldn't get Kukkiwon certificate would it REALY effect you? Come on... be honest.

Why bother with any certification. If we were to say that getting a KKW cert was no big deal why deal with any cert, even from your own instructor? If your instructor never gave you a certification would your world implode?

Like anything else in this life something is only as valuable as the value we place in it. "One man's trash is another man's treasure." Sound familiar? I guess I am tired of this particular question because it honestly has no real answer and we can circulate the bickering over it forever.

Will I live in the martial arts without a KKW certifications? Yes. Will it effect me? As long as I am part of the KKW TKD, yes. It is a personal choice and value which I place on that particular piece of paper. If I peddle KKW TKD and I am not certified to do so, then personally I feel that I am not in the right. If you as a KKW TKD person don't feel a need for the KKW cert, that is your choice. Will I feel you are in the wrong for teaching KKW TKD without the proper certification? Yes. Doesn't mean I don't like you, just my person view point based on my concept of right and wrong.

 

[Gorilla]

My kids have benefited from their Kukkiwon Certification. It has given the instant credibility when they have had to change schools. They have gotten raised Eye Brows at first because of their age but their skill has always given them credibility! It was asked by their Shotokan Instructor. His first question was are they WTF and are they Kukkiwon Certified. It even carried weight in another Martial Art.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Why bother with any certification. If we were to say that getting a KKW cert was no big deal why deal with any cert, even from your own instructor? If your instructor never gave you a certification would your world implode?

Like anything else in this life something is only as valuable as the value we place in it. "One man's trash is another man's treasure." Sound familiar? I guess I am tired of this particular question because it honestly has no real answer and we can circulate the bickering over it forever.

Will I live in the martial arts without a KKW certifications? Yes. Will it effect me? As long as I am part of the KKW TKD, yes. It is a personal choice and value which I place on that particular piece of paper. If I peddle KKW TKD and I am not certified to do so, then personally I feel that I am not in the right. If you as a KKW TKD person don't feel a need for the KKW cert, that is your choice. Will I feel you are in the wrong for teaching KKW TKD without the proper certification? Yes. Doesn't mean I don't like you, just my person view point based on my concept of right and wrong.

Exactly right. I would have a problem with a school/instructor telling their students or potential clientel that they teach KKW tkd if they were not accredited through the KKW. Its no different to someone calling themself a builder without their builders registration, its false advertising and misleading. If you dont claim to be teaching KKW stuff and are quite open about this with your students then I see no reason to have a KKW cert. When our school gets aked by a new student or parent what our affiliations are we tell them in no uncertain terms that we are an independent organisation. When I joked with my original instructor that my daughter would one day go to the olympics for tkd he did not hesitate to tell me that if she showed enough promise to one day be a good competition sparrer that it would best suit me to move her to one of the kukki clubs in my area, where she could get the accreditation and coaching she would require to do that. I respected him for being open and honest about that and not leading me on to believe she could achieve that through our club.

 

[puunui]

If you dont claim to be teaching KKW stuff and are quite open about this with your students then I see no reason to have a KKW cert.

What do you think about the idea that you give the same certification that you received, that your grandmaster was given Kukkiwon certification, so that is what he should be issuing to his own students.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What do you think about the idea that you give the same certification that you received, that your grandmaster was given Kukkiwon certification, so that is what he should be issuing to his own students.

It probably depends on what percentage of the time he has spent doing the art he was originally accredited in. I mean technically in my case my GM is a black belt in tkd and hapkido, he incorporates a lot of hapkido techs into his curriculum but does not give out rank in hapkido. My old karate instructor had a black belt in 2 forms of karate but did not give out certification in the original form of karate he did, but only in the second one he studied. I suppose you also have to take into account if the curriculum they are teaching has moved or changed from what they originally gained rank in. For instance, bob jones gives rank in zendokai, but does not give rank in his original art (goju karate), he now gives rank in "zendokai karate" and does not claim to teach, or give certification in "goju karate". Similar to what our GM has done, once upon a time he taught kukki tkd but has since moved away from that style of tkd so giving me a kukki cert would not really be relevent because he no longer teaches kukki. I suppose it would be like a plumber who changes trades and becimes an electrician, if he takes on an apprentice at this point should he give them a plumbers ticket as well because that was the original trade he did. Its hard with tkd, because so many different form of the art all fall under the banner of "taekwondo", whereas karate has kyokushin, shotokan, goju, isshin ryu etc. Thats just my take on the subject anyway.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It probably depends on what percentage of the time he has spent doing the art he was originally accredited in. I mean technically in my case my GM is a black belt in tkd and hapkido, he incorporates a lot of hapkido techs into his curriculum but does not give out rank in hapkido.

A lot of taekwondo instructors incorporate some hapkido into their taekwondo classes, but that does not make what they do a hapkido class. Having taken an HKD infused Taekwondo class and having studied hapkido, it is very different to study the art than it is to learn techniques culled from it and applied to a different art. That taekwondo class gave me a very solid base when I began hapkido, but it was not hapkido. Any more than a TKD class with some BJJ mixed in is BJJ.

My old karate instructor had a black belt in 2 forms of karate but did not give out certification in the original form of karate he did, but only in the second one he studied. I suppose you also have to take into account if the curriculum they are teaching has moved or changed from what they originally gained rank in. For instance, bob jones gives rank in zendokai, but does not give rank in his original art (goju karate), he now gives rank in "zendokai karate" and does not claim to teach, or give certification in "goju karate".

But that was still a certification that he received. He held grades in two zendokai and in goju, teaches zendokai and gives rank in zendokai, presumably through the same zendokai organization that he received his rank from.

Similar to what our GM has done, once upon a time he taught kukki tkd but has since moved away from that style of tkd so giving me a kukki cert would not really be relevent because he no longer teaches kukki.

I know that Glenn and yourself have been discussing this on more than one thread, but from what I have seen, your GM isn't 'not' teaching Kukki taekwondo. He's using an older set of Kukki forms and is still teaching techniques that are found in the Kukki textbook. The fact that he doesn't have WTF sparring doesn't make him 'not Kukki' either; it simply means that he is teaching Kukki taekwondo as he was taught (forms and techniques) and is focusing on the application of those techniques under a modified set of sparring rules.

Glenn's point is that your GM received a Kukki cert for learning the taekwondo that he is teaching to his students and should be furnishing them with the same certification.

I suppose it would be like a plumber who changes trades and becimes an electrician, if he takes on an apprentice at this point should he give them a plumbers ticket as well because that was the original trade he did.

More like a plumber who has been working on commercial buildings and then goes to work in residential. Same certifications, same trade, different locale. Your GM didn't stop teaching taekwondo and then start teaching hapkido. He's teaching taekwondo using an older set of Kukkiwon forms and a modified set of sparring rules.

Its hard with tkd, because so many different form of the art all fall under the banner of "taekwondo", whereas karate has kyokushin, shotokan, goju, isshin ryu etc. Thats just my take on the subject anyway.

Essentially, with taekwondo you have Kukki taekwondo, Chang Hon taekwondo, Songahm taekwondo, Jhoon Rhee taekwondo, and Ho Am taekwondo. Most independents are teaching some form of either Chang Hon or Kukki taekwondo. There are actually far fewer taekwondo styles than there are Karate styles, and they are much more similar to eachother than some karate ryus are to other karate ryus, not to mention all of the styles that are not karate but are commonly called or known as karate (including taekwondo). It is actually easier to keep track of taekwondo than it is karate.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

What do you think about the idea that you give the same certification that you received, that your grandmaster was given Kukkiwon certification, so that is what he should be issuing to his own students.

If you are teaching what was taught to you then you should be certifying in same organization that you were certified under. I have two private students that I teach a mixture of arts with. However their base is Shorei-ryu. Because of that I made sure they joined the American Karate Association and I certify their rank with that organization, because that is the organization that Sensei Sharkey certified me under for my Shorei-ryu ranking. I have another student at my school that started in TKD but joined our school. His mother asked me to work with him privately on his TKD since he invested about a year of his time into it and they don't want that to go to waste. So I have been working with him and when the time comes to get him certified in KKW TKD, I will certify him through KKW. Again, that is just my personal standard that I believe in.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

A lot of taekwondo instructors incorporate some hapkido into their taekwondo classes, but that does not make what they do a hapkido class. Having taken an HKD infused Taekwondo class and having studied hapkido, it is very different to study the art than it is to learn techniques culled from it and applied to a different art. That taekwondo class gave me a very solid base when I began hapkido, but it was not hapkido. Any more than a TKD class with some BJJ mixed in is BJJ.


But that was still a certification that he received. He held grades in two zendokai and in goju, teaches zendokai and gives rank in zendokai, presumably through the same zendokai organization that he received his rank from.


I know that Glenn and yourself have been discussing this on more than one thread, but from what I have seen, your GM isn't 'not' teaching Kukki taekwondo. He's using an older set of Kukki forms and is still teaching techniques that are found in the Kukki textbook. The fact that he doesn't have WTF sparring doesn't make him 'not Kukki' either; it simply means that he is teaching Kukki taekwondo as he was taught (forms and techniques) and is focusing on the application of those techniques under a modified set of sparring rules.

Glenn's point is that your GM received a Kukki cert for learning the taekwondo that he is teaching to his students and should be furnishing them with the same certification.


More like a plumber who has been working on commercial buildings and then goes to work in residential. Same certifications, same trade, different locale. Your GM didn't stop teaching taekwondo and then start teaching hapkido. He's teaching taekwondo using an older set of Kukkiwon forms and a modified set of sparring rules.


Essentially, with taekwondo you have Kukki taekwondo, Chang Hon taekwondo, Songahm taekwondo, Jhoon Rhee taekwondo, and Ho Am taekwondo. Most independents are teaching some form of either Chang Hon or Kukki taekwondo. There are actually far fewer taekwondo styles than there are Karate styles, and they are much more similar to eachother than some karate ryus are to other karate ryus, not to mention all of the styles that are not karate but are commonly called or known as karate (including taekwondo). It is actually easier to keep track of taekwondo than it is karate.

Daniel

So by your definition, how much would have to be altered from what is now KKW tkd before you would not give out that cert? From training with kukki guys I would say that what we do is about 30-40% kukki based, so do you believe a student who is taught less than half the kukki stuff should have a kukki cert? I listed the differences between our club and kukki earlier in this thread and even puuini said that by definition what we are doing is karate, and not tkd (which I dont necessarilly agree with), but the differences went way beyond how we spar. So do you belive we should have a kukki cert hanging on our wall? I appreciate where you are coming from, but I still maintain that I would be way out of my depth in a kukki school and thus feel that me having a certificate saying I was a kukki black belt would be bordering on fraudulent. Also as Ive said earlier, our GM is more than happy to get us a kukki cert if we want one, so he does offer the same cert that he got many years ago, its not like he refuses to give out the same cert he received.

 

[puunui]

I still maintain that I would be way out of my depth in a kukki school and thus feel that me having a certificate saying I was a kukki black belt would be bordering on fraudulent.

Everyone feels out of sorts whenever they go to a different school. There is always an adjustment. Personally, I think you are overexaggerating the differences based on what, your 1st Dan level of experience? I think you have much more in common with Kukki Taekwondo than you have differences, even if you don't. But again, really it is all academic. If you want to see yourself and your school as something that is separate and apart from Kukki Taekwondo, then go for it. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me how you see yourself, even if I do think that your view of yourself is erroneous. You practice the Kukkiwon poomsae. You spar using modified WTF Rules. Your instructor is Kukkiwon certified. What more do you want -- to look like the competitors at the Olympics? I got news for you -- very few people look like them and if that were the standard, then 99% of Kukki Taekwondoin would feel they are not practicing Kukki Taekwondo.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Everyone feels out of sorts whenever they go to a different school. There is always an adjustment. Personally, I think you are overexaggerating the differences based on what, your 1st Dan level of experience? I think you have much more in common with Kukki Taekwondo than you have differences, even if you don't. But again, really it is all academic. If you want to see yourself and your school as something that is separate and apart from Kukki Taekwondo, then go for it. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me how you see yourself, even if I do think that your view of yourself is erroneous. You practice the Kukkiwon poomsae. You spar using modified WTF Rules. Your instructor is Kukkiwon certified. What more do you want -- to look like the competitors at the Olympics? I got news for you -- very few people look like them and if that were the standard, then 99% of Kukki Taekwondoin would feel they are not practicing Kukki Taekwondo.

But hang on a minute, earlier in this thread you said, and I quote, "your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing". Now all of a sudden "we have much in common with kukki". I base most of what I am saying on the reaction from kukki students when they join our club. We would have at least 100, probably more, kukki students who have joined just since my time in the club and they all comment on how different it is, I also train with a kukki guy and what we do is different. So its not based on my "1st dan level of experience", its based on actual kukki students telling me time and time again how different it is. I dont proffess to be an expert on the art or the differences between types of tkd, but when you are repeatedly told by kukki students that what you do is different you do start to take note.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Actually my wife has been following this thread and just made an interesting suggestion. The local kukki club around here runs out of my children's primary school and she said they are currently offering "1 month free" and train tuesday and thursday (I train monday and wednesday). They are quite a large respected club in the area. She suggested that I go and do my 1 month free and find out first hand how similar or different it is. She just may have an idea and Im sure my training partner will be up for it also. I would have be honest with them and tell them I have a black belt in another 'style' of tkd as it would become obvious Im not a complete newbie. I will make some calls and go in "undercover" if I can. I will keep you posted if/when it happens, Im not real busy at work currently so I will aim to start in the next fortnight. Stay tuned.

 

[puunui]

"your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing".

I said that to see your reaction, how attached or committed you are to Taekwondo.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I said that to see your reaction, how attached or committed you are to Taekwondo.

I would say Im commited and attached to what I do. I love what I do and in 5 years of training have only ever missed two classes and I love the club I train at and the people there, but I couldnt care what its called or how others view it and Im not overly interested in the whole lineage and history side of it. I wouldnt say Im completely disinterested in those things either, but first and foremost Im there to train, get fit, get flexible, improve my self defence and get out of the house and have some fun. People can call what I do karate, tkd, kung fu or half assed kukki tkd (as a poster here called it), but I really dont care, its the training I care about. In saying that though, I am currently getting a tattoo designed saying "indomitable spirit" in korean, so I do have some affiliation with the term tkd obviously.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Actually my wife has been following this thread and just made an interesting suggestion. The local kukki club around here runs out of my children's primary school and she said they are currently offering "1 month free" and train tuesday and thursday (I train monday and wednesday). They are quite a large respected club in the area. She suggested that I go and do my 1 month free and find out first hand how similar or different it is. She just may have an idea and Im sure my training partner will be up for it also. I would have be honest with them and tell them I have a black belt in another 'style' of tkd as it would become obvious Im not a complete newbie. I will make some calls and go in "undercover" if I can. I will keep you posted if/when it happens, Im not real busy at work currently so I will aim to start in the next fortnight. Stay tuned.

I just gave the school a call and explained that I am a black belt in tkd, but a different style. I told them I would like to try kukki tkd to see how I find it compared to what Ive done in the past. The instructor seemed nice and was very welcoming and is happy for me to train with the class for a month to see what I think. He gave me a brief outline of how their classes work and said Im free to start whenever I wish. If I can swing it, I will do my first free class next week.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I just gave the school a call and explained that I am a black belt in tkd, but a different style. I told them I would like to try kukki tkd to see how I find it compared to what Ive done in the past. The instructor seemed nice and was very welcoming and is happy for me to train with the class for a month to see what I think. He gave me a brief outline of how their classes work and said Im free to start whenever I wish. If I can swing it, I will do my first free class next week.

Sorry, forgot to mention, they asked what club I have trained at and when I told him he said "oh, this will be very different to what you're used to", so it looks like this could get interesting.

 

[andyjeffries]

I just gave the school a call and explained that I am a black belt in tkd, but a different style. I told them I would like to try kukki tkd to see how I find it compared to what Ive done in the past. The instructor seemed nice and was very welcoming and is happy for me to train with the class for a month to see what I think. He gave me a brief outline of how their classes work and said Im free to start whenever I wish. If I can swing it, I will do my first free class next week.

This is a great idea, I'm looking forward to following your thoughts...

 

[ralphmcpherson]

This is a great idea, I'm looking forward to following your thoughts...

Yeah, Im looking forward to it, they have a good reputation in my area, so the quality of instruction will be good. I'll have to find the old white belt though

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So by your definition, how much would have to be altered from what is now KKW tkd before you would not give out that cert? From training with kukki guys I would say that what we do is about 30-40% kukki based, so do you believe a student who is taught less than half the kukki stuff should have a kukki cert?

I'm not sure where you're getting your percentage from, but unless you are doing mostly non TKD techniques, then I'd say that aside from the modified sparring rules, you're still within KKW TKD, though using an older form set.

I listed the differences between our club and kukki earlier in this thread and even puuini said that by definition what we are doing is karate, and not tkd (which I dont necessarilly agree with), but the differences went way beyond how we spar.

Is that what he said? I think that he responded with an 'if you feel that way, why don't you call it karate?' rather than 'you're essentially doing karate.' If I am mistaken, my apologies; this conversation has taken place over more than one thread, each of which tops ten pages.

So do you belive we should have a kukki cert hanging on our wall? I appreciate where you are coming from, but I still maintain that I would be way out of my depth in a kukki school and thus feel that me having a certificate saying I was a kukki black belt would be bordering on fraudulent. Also as Ive said earlier, our GM is more than happy to get us a kukki cert if we want one, so he does offer the same cert that he got many years ago, its not like he refuses to give out the same cert he received.

One of the nice things about the Kukkiwon is that it is designed to accomodate more than one type of school. Not all schools are 'olympic sport' schools. Some Kukki school owners focus on self defense more than the competition. Not all school owners want to run their school identically. Certainly, it didn't bother your GM to get a Kukki certificate. Realistically, he probably is practicing along the same lines he was back when he first received his KKW cert.; what you describe is not unfamiliar and is pretty much how quite a few of the TKD schools out my way looked in the eighties.

The main idea of the Kukkiwon is to furnish a common set of forms and techniques, most of which you likely are doing, around which a school owner can build his or her curriculum and add to it if they so choose. That is why you see Kukki schools with hapkido grafted on; the kwanjang has HKD experience and simply blends it into his curriculum.

Every school does things differently, so no matter how 'compliant' you may be or think you may be, you will probably have to get up to speed on something if you switch schools. I'm sure that Steven Lopez, were he to move to a different area and go to a Kukki/WTF school with olympic rings decorating the door would still have to get up to speed on something. The Kukkiwon curriculum isn't a straight jacket, a format, or even a comprehensive curriculum (though one could study just what is in the Kukki textbook for a lifetime). It is an area of common ground for all taekwondoin.

Certainly, you are not the school owner, so you cannot determine what kind of certificates your GM issues. But if he is higher than fourth dan KKW and is teaching taekwondo, he should at least allow his students access to KKW certification. And perhaps he does; you may have said so, so if I missed it, my apologies.

If he is offering you access to a Kukki cert, personally, I'd take him up on it. He wouldn't offer it if he felt that it had no value. Obviously, it did for him.

Daniel

PS: You'll do your part to stave off planetary implosion by receiving your KKW cert as well!

 

[terryl965]

ralphmcpherson would you be willing to share the name of the school for us, I will be watching this thread to see your revues of this KKW school.

 

[andyjeffries]

Actually my wife has been following this thread and just made an interesting suggestion.

Whoah! This almost slipped past me. Does your wife train in Taekwondo as well? If so, that's very cool. My wife appreciates what I do but has no interest in the art at all.