Reality check... would the world implode if you couldnt get Kukkiwon certification?

[granfire]

Pretty? Not just pretty. This thing will raise the value of your house!

Daniel

Then again, everything I put on the walls increases the value of my house (it's too easy)

 

[dancingalone]

To be fair, Glenn also gets flack for simply suggesting that people would benefit from it and that there is no reason not to have one.

It seems an overwhelming burden to prove that EVERYONE practicing tae kwon do can BENEFIT from paying an admittedly non-onerous fee (for a westerner) for certification. A primary justification seems to be the ability to be a part of something bigger which seems like a benefit rather difficult to quantify in real terms. You can likewise be part of something bigger by joining a church, or the AARP, or the ACLU - yet I don't see anything advocating that everyone should join at least one of those groups.

 

[puunui]

Using the same logic, it is not also of utility to go out and get ITF certification because we just might find ourselves in Poland or Vietnam someday where ITF TKD is strong?

Is ITF still strong in Poland and Vietnam? I have no idea, but I do know that Vietnam is a very active participant at WTF International Events, and have even hosted its own WTF events over the years. I would think that ITF may have been strong at one point, but has since faded in favor of the Kukkiwon and WTF.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Everything you just said could also be said for ATA or ITF or depending on your locale, Jhoon Rhee, GTF, ITA, CTF, etc. Just saying.

I appreciate puunui's passion in promoting his form of TKD and I enjoy his participation on the forum. That said I utterly reject the default assumption you and he hold that it is better to have KKW certification than not.

I'll let Glenn answer for himself, but I do not think it better. I do think that if you are teaching Kukkiwon taekwondo, it raises an eyebrow for me if you aren't issuing them, but outside of that, I don't see it as necessarilly better.

It is a tool like anything else - of use to those who can use it, useless to those who cannot. And it is only one brand out of a competing group of dozens. Do we go out and buy a Ginsu knife to have in our homes just in case, if we already have a perfectly functional knife already? Using the same logic, it is not also of utility to go out and get ITF certification because we just might find ourselves in Poland or Vietnam someday where ITF TKD is strong?

As you say, it is a tool. Good for many jobs, but not all jobs. Given the tool analogy, all that I can say is that I own many tools that are only useful for very specific jobs, jobs that I do not do on a regular basis (haven't used that timing light in over a decade).

If it is a tool that you do not need, do not expect to use, and have no real personal desire for, then save the space in your toolbox and don't get it.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Just curious, but what type of Taekwondo certification do you give to your own students? Any particular organization that you go through? How about for Okinawan Goju Ryu?

My TKD students will receive only a house BB. We only have 1 dan rank, you're either a BB or not. Seniority, instructorship, and administrative roles in the training group will likely sort out any chain of command issues.

As for Goju-ryu, my teacher was a Jundokan member, but we're not currently affiliated with any outside organization. He is a 7th dan and destined to stay there, and it's likely that no one under him will ever promote higher, which may or may not be an issue depending on whom you are. Personally, I am not concerned about the problem myself. I don't really care about higher rank and at yondan, I have another 20 years before I likely would feel adequate to taking on a 7th dan. And as I have learned the entire system already along with kobudo, I really don't gain anything from promotion other than gratification of my ego.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It seems an overwhelming burden to prove that EVERYONE practicing tae kwon do can BENEFIT from paying an admittedly non-onerous fee (for a westerner) for certification. A primary justification seems to be the ability to be a part of something bigger which seems like a benefit rather difficult to quantify in real terms. You can likewise be part of something bigger by joining a church, or the AARP, or the ACLU - yet I don't see anything advocating that everyone should join at least one of those groups.

Sure. I am a Christian so I joined the Catholic church (largest Christian church to my knowledge). I'm a Catholic man, so I joined the Knights of Columbus (really, I thought I'd get a sword out of the deal). I am not retired, so I have no need of AARP at this time. I am a moderate, so I do not affiliate with any activist groups, as most are either hard right or hard left.

I do practice taekwondo, thus I see a level of value in having Kukki certification.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Is ITF still strong in Poland and Vietnam? I have no idea, but I do know that Vietnam is a very active participant at WTF International Events, and have even hosted its own WTF events over the years. I would think that ITF may have been strong at one point, but has since faded in favor of the Kukkiwon and WTF.

I still have extended family in Vietnam, although I don't know them other than by letter (odd, since I can't read Vietnamese) or a rare phone call. My father still kept up with the familial connections as he could after the war and our subsequent emigration, and now that he's passed away, I still help ease their lives financially as I can.

One of my cousins is in ITF TKD there and just from what I understand secondhand through him, ITF is still thriving there from the Oh Do Kwan/Vietnam war connection.

 

[puunui]

It seems an overwhelming burden to prove that EVERYONE practicing tae kwon do can BENEFIT from paying an admittedly non-onerous fee (for a westerner) for certification. A primary justification seems to be the ability to be a part of something bigger which seems like a benefit rather difficult to quantify in real terms. You can likewise be part of something bigger by joining a church, or the AARP, or the ACLU - yet I don't see anything advocating that everyone should join at least one of those groups.

The Kukkiwon non-onerous fee is even lower in developing countries. But again, if you don't want Kukkiwon certification for yourself or your students, then simply don't get it. No one is forcing you. To tell you the truth, in my circles, I don't have to convince people with regard to the desirability of Kukkiwon certification. In fact, everyone I know hungers for it and want to know the secret to getting higher and higher Kukkiwon dan, because their instructors seem to be reluctant to given them Kukkiwon rank after a certain point. So at this point, there is a whole group of 4th and maybe 5th Dan, but it becomes very few and far in between after that.

As for joining a church, AARP or ACLU, I would say if you are involved in the same type of issues that these organizations are involved in, then go ahead and join.

 

[dancingalone]

I do practice taekwondo, thus I see a level of value in having Kukki certification.

Daniel

And that's fine for you. Surely you can see that to a non-KKW person, the idea that they could benefit from taking a KKW cert might come across as patronizing or arrogant? Turn it around. What don't you get an ITF cert or an ATA cert 'just in case'?

 

[dancingalone]

No one is forcing you. To tell you the truth, in my circles, I don't have to convince people with regard to the desirability of Kukkiwon certification. In fact, everyone I know hungers for it and want to know the secret to getting higher and higher Kukkiwon dan, because their instructors seem to be reluctant to given them Kukkiwon rank after a certain point. So at this point, there is a whole group of 4th and maybe 5th Dan, but it becomes very few and far in between after that.

I know it's an option and a desirable one to many. Really what I object to is the evangelizing that everyone would benefit from joining the KKW. Not true in my opinion.

 

[puunui]

I know it's an option and a desirable one to many. Really what I object to is the evangelizing that everyone would benefit from joining the KKW. Not true in my opinion.

I don't know if everyone would "benefit", but I do believe that everyone should have access to Kukkiwon certification. It was created to be an inclusive certification for all. But again, if you don't want it, don't get it. No one is forcing you.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And that's fine for you. Surely you can see that to a non-KKW person, the idea that they could benefit from taking a KKW cert might come across as patronizing or arrogant?

I don't see the idea that someone could benefit as patronizing or arrogant. If it were phrased in a 'my first dan is better than your first dan because its KKW' manner, then it would be.

Certificates have their greatest value in the school where you train. Within the organization, be it KKW, ITF, ATA, etc., it is more of a fraternal sort of thing that opens up doors that might not otherwise be open, or gives common ground with somone else of the same organization. Outside of the organization, it means nothing except that you have a black belt. If your school is independent, then skip from in school to outside of the organization. For many people, meaning within the school is enough. I happen to be included in that group. But just because it is enough for me to have a school certificate (both my hapkido and kumdo certs are essentially in school certs) doesn't mean that I don't see benefit in an organizational cert.

I'm happy as a clam with my no name folding knife that works well for most everything that I use a knife for. But that Swiss Army Knife sure is cool! Is it better? No; probably about equal with regards to being a knife. But probably once or twice a year, I find myself in a social situation where someone asks if anyone has a bottle opener and nobody does. About then, that Swiss Army Knife is quite handy to have. Or would be.. except I don't have one.

Turn it around. What don't you get an ITF cert or an ATA cert 'just in case'?

If taekwondo were my primary art? Sure. It would open up opporunities to train with seniors that I would otherwise have no connection to. If a ITF school or ATA school were willing to bring me in to test for one for a non-onerous fee, I'd be happy to.

Daniel

 

[StudentCarl]

At 48, I figure I'm good for at least another 30 years of active training, maybe more if I don't count sparring competitively. I'm in a KKW school, and I can't guarantee my school and master will be here as long as I will. I'd rather have it than not.

I do understand the other side though...same idea as it doesn't matter what color belt you wear because your training is what's inside you...not cloth or paper.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know if everyone would "benefit", but I do believe that everyone should have access to Kukkiwon certification. It was created to be an inclusive certification for all. But again, if you don't want it, don't get it. No one is forcing you.

I'm discussing the idea that everyone should acquire KKW certification. The fact that it was created to be inclusive doesn't mean all should go ahead and join or that those who didn't or their teachers didn't should feel like lesser taekwondo-in for it.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't see the idea that someone could benefit as patronizing or arrogant. If it were phrased in a 'my first dan is better than your first dan because its KKW' manner, then it would be.

You don't see the proposition that we should all join in the collective under the KKW as patronizing or arrogant? Especially as when it is assumed a priori that this is 'truth'? I don't know what to say then.

I'm happy as a clam with my no name folding knife that works well for most everything that I use a knife for. But that Swiss Army Knife sure is cool! Is it better? No; probably about equal with regards to being a knife. But probably once or twice a year, I find myself in a social situation where someone asks if anyone has a bottle opener and nobody does. About then, that Swiss Army Knife is quite handy to have. Or would be.. except I don't have one.

Then it sounds like you would find utility in acquiring and carrying a Swiss Army knife just in case. Others may find differently.

If taekwondo were my primary art? Sure. It would open up opporunities to train with seniors that I would otherwise have no connection to. If a ITF school or ATA school were willing to bring me in to test for one for a non-onerous fee, I'd be happy to.
Daniel

Well, clearly it would. Only you can decide if it is worth the added time and money. Much like the decision-making points others have in trying to decide whether to pursue KKW certification.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You don't see the proposition that we should all join in the collective under the KKW as patronizing or arrogant?

That is not what I responded to.

I responded to this:

Surely you can see that to a non-KKW person, the idea that they could benefit from taking a KKW cert might come across as patronizing or arrogant?

and said that "I don't see the idea that someone could benefit as patronizing or arrogant."

I did not, however, say that I "don't see the proposition that we should all join in the collective under the KKW as patronizing or arrogant."

Especially as when it is assumed a priori that this is 'truth'? I don't know what to say then.

How is this being presented as 'this is truth'?

The only time truth has come up was in Terry's 'true taekwondo' thread.

If you are referring to my posts there, I was pretty clear (or at least tried to be) that I was speaking hypothetically and that as far as I am concerned, any taekwondo descended from the five original kwans is true taekwondo.

If you are referring to something that Glenn or someone else said, then they will have respond.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

No I don't. I have repeatedly said that if you do not want Kukkiwon certification, fine don't get it. Again, please do not misrepresent me or my position on anything.

Glen you do say don't get it but the way you present it say otherwise alot of the times. Maybe I am reading it wrong, if so sorry.:asian:

 

[terryl965]

Being "worthy enough" has nothing to do with it. Everyone should have access to Kukkiwon certification, no matter who they are.

puuniu I can understand your point but in reality everybody does not have access to them.I have a set of students with me that there old instructor took the money and never ever got the certificates, of course that has been taken care of but that is still a major problem here in the US. To many instructor never ever turn anything in and when the student seperates they find out. I like this position of yours that everyone should have access to them.

 

[puunui]

I'm discussing the idea that everyone should acquire KKW certification. The fact that it was created to be inclusive doesn't mean all should go ahead and join or that those who didn't or their teachers didn't should feel like lesser taekwondo-in for it.

Again, I don't know about the idea that everyone should get it, more so the idea that I think everyone should have access to it. That is the big problem, people who want it but do not have access, or at least that is how they feel, not forcing everyone to get Kukkiwon certification. That is part of the mission statement of USTC, giving people access to the Kukkiwon who otherwise do not have access. It isn't about making everyone get Kukkiwon certification or forcing everyone to accept Kukkiwon certification. Again, if you don't want it, no one is forcing you to get it.

 

[puunui]

puuniu I can understand your point but in reality everybody does not have access to them.I have a set of students with me that there old instructor took the money and never ever got the certificates, of course that has been taken care of but that is still a major problem here in the US. To many instructor never ever turn anything in and when the student seperates they find out. I like this position of yours that everyone should have access to them.

That has always been my position. The shenanigans are what we are trying to fix. I understand that people are getting and got ripped off, lied to, and cheated regarding their Kukkiwon certification. There is much bitterness out there regarding this. I believe in the Kukkiwon and believe that its programs and certification should be accessible to all.