Reality check... would the world implode if you couldnt get Kukkiwon certification?

[granfire]

Wasn't there a time when you just send them your money and got the paper in return?

Something like 'getting your BB registered'

But I might have gotten that wrong, happened once or twice before.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But there are people on this thread who are questioning why one would teach KKW patterns, do KKW sparring, etc. but belong to a different organization. Which shows that there are, in fact, multiple organizations that do KKW Taekwon-Do, just like there are multiple organizations that teach ITF Taekwon-Do. The KKW isn't and has never been the only game in town even for KKW Taekwon-Do.

The KKW and the ITF are the biggest and best known of the organizations that teach their respective styles, but they certainly aren't the only ones. Your argument about hapkido and kumdo can certainly be made regarding getting certified by the ITF or KKW.

Pax,

Chris

Chris,

I said raise an eyebrow, not write off or consider then frauds.

I suspect that there are far more independents teaching Chang Hon TKD than there are teaching Kukki taekwondo. Every independent school that I have ever visited taught Chang Hon in some fashion. Browsing the web and looking at TKD school websites, you will find a lot of indie schools or smaller organizations promoting Chang Hon taekwondo, with few, if any, promoting Kukki taekwondo.

It is normative for non ITF schools to teach Chang Hon taekwondo. It is not the norm for non KKW schools to teach KKW TKD or for non ATA schools to teach Songahm TKD. Songahm is more problematic because the ATA can potentially sue the school owner for using Songahm forms outside of the ATA. With Kukki curriculum, it isn't problematic; simply unusual.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

It is normative for non ITF schools to teach Chang Hon taekwondo. It is not the norm for non KKW schools to teach KKW TKD or for non ATA schools to teach Songahm TKD. Songahm is more problematic because the ATA can potentially sue the school owner for using Songahm forms outside of the ATA. With Kukki curriculum, it isn't problematic; simply unusual.

I think this is just due to the relative youth of the KKW forms and also because KKW TKD has experienced less fragmentation historically. However I would not be surprised to see it happening more frequently.

Last night I saw various people on Youtube performing Palgwes. They were wearing crossover uniforms, so I'm inclined to think they are independent. I even saw someone doing Taegeuks with an Independent Taekwondo Association banner on his walls. That's John Pelligrini's group and I've heard he can get his people KKW certs but they're not required at all there.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But who does that? People who leave organizations generally change their curriculum, if only for legal reasons if we're talking ATA.

With regard to KKW, I thought the requirements were quite minimal anyway, like learning the Taegeuks, and thus most schools add additional material on their own. I don't think it's unusual for people to drift away from the KKW while still teaching KKW forms, albeit not to the KKW's current poomsae specs. GM Kim Soo for example uses the Palgwe forms in his Chayon-ryu system while also teaching the karate kata and chuan fa sets.

They are minimal. The defining factor is Taegeuk or Palgwe pumse and WTF sparring. That's about it.

It isn't that nobody does, but from what I have seen, as I said to Chris, it is unusual. Most indie schools or small orgs are invariably Chang Hon in some way, shape, or form.

Also, as I said to Chris, it would raise an eyebrow; not cause me to write them off as a fraud or inferior. Because it is not normative, however, I would be asking the reasons why this came to be.

You don't really break off from the Kukkiwon because you don't join the Kukkiwon. You really can't break away. You're simply certified. Since the Kukkiwon won't prevent you from throwing in BJJ groundwork and Shorin Ryu kata on top of it all in your school, and as there are no annual dues, the dan fees are non-onerous, KKW/WTF stickers are a nice customer draw, and KKW certification is a nice selling point, KKW school owners have little incentive to break with the KKW.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

Chris,

I said raise an eyebrow, not write off or consider then frauds.

Yes, I know. I don't think I implied otherwise.

I suspect that there are far more independents teaching Chang Hon TKD than there are teaching Kukki taekwondo. Every independent school that I have ever visited taught Chang Hon in some fashion. Browsing the web and looking at TKD school websites, you will find a lot of indie schools or smaller organizations promoting Chang Hon taekwondo, with few, if any, promoting Kukki taekwondo.

Well, I have seen a few doing the Palgue forms. Interestingly, though, I don't know of any non KKW types who do the Taeguks. Then again, I know more than one extremely highly ranked KKW GM who gets his students certified by the KKW who do the Chang Hun tuls either in lieu of or in addition to the Taeguks. The ITF stuff is out there all over the place in one form or another.

It is normative for non ITF schools to teach Chang Hon taekwondo. It is not the norm for non KKW schools to teach KKW TKD or for non ATA schools to teach Songahm TKD. Songahm is more problematic because the ATA can potentially sue the school owner for using Songahm forms outside of the ATA. With Kukki curriculum, it isn't problematic; simply unusual.

Well, I would hazard to say that in my opinion this is a conclusion drawn from experience which doesn't raise above the level of anecdotal evidence given the size of the KKW membership. YMMV, of course. The ATA is a different stiry, of course, since they've apparently gotten their forms under copyright.

I'd also say that any talk of what is "normative" for any school or system of schools outside of the KKW (or the ITF for that matter) is irrelevant since they are, by definition, not tied to any sort of norm set by a central organization. Pretty much everything is up for grabs if one is independent.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Well, I have seen a few doing the Palgue forms. Interestingly, though, I don't know of any non KKW types who do the Taeguks. Then again, I know more than one extremely highly ranked KKW GM who gets his students certified by the KKW who do the Chang Hun tuls either in lieu of or in addition to the Taeguks. The ITF stuff is out there all over the place in one form or another.

Well, I would hazard to say that in my opinion this is a conclusion drawn from experience which doesn't raise above the level of anecdotal evidence given the size of the KKW membership.

 

[dancingalone]

T
You don't really break off from the Kukkiwon because you don't join the Kukkiwon. You really can't break away. You're simply certified. Since the Kukkiwon won't prevent you from throwing in BJJ groundwork and Shorin Ryu kata on top of it all in your school, and as there are no annual dues, the dan fees are non-onerous, KKW/WTF stickers are a nice customer draw, and KKW certification is a nice selling point, KKW school owners have little incentive to break with the KKW.

I said drift away from KKW not break away. If one is no longer seeking higher KKW rank, doesn't submit one's students for KKW certification, isn't interested in more KKW training, arguably one is drifting away. And if those 3 conditions are true, then it's just an issue of semantics about the wording.

The real question is whether this means you still practice KKW TKD or not, especially if you have made a mental determination to use your own internal standard as the final arbiter.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think this is just due to the relative youth of the KKW forms and also because KKW TKD has experienced less fragmentation historically. However I would not be surprised to see it happening more frequently.

Youth? For all intents and purposes, the KKW is only about eight years younger than the ITF and both have been around for about four decades, the ITF going on five.

I thinkd that the reason that there is less fragmentation is because you really don't join the KKW. You just certify students through them. Nothing to break away from because there's nothing to join.

Last night I saw various people on Youtube performing Palgwes. They were wearing crossover uniforms, so I'm inclined to think they are independent.

I suspect that you're more likely to see Palgwes being done by independent groups. The dobok doesn't really mean anything one way or the other. The KKW doesn't enforce vee necks. My master wears a crossover because it was given to him by a sales rep and he finds it comfortable. The thing has dragons all over it. But he's a KKW sixth dan and issues KKW certs to all students.

I even saw someone doing Taegeuks with an Independent Taekwondo Association banner on his walls. That's John Pelligrini's group and I've heard he can get his people KKW certs but they're not required at all there.

Correct about GMP's group offering KKW certs. http://www.dsihq.com/#the-independent-taekwondo-association-ita-4c5084 Its no different than USAT in that regard, however. You can join USAT as a member and can probably join as a member school and through them, have access to the KKW. But USAT doesn't issue its own seprate certs and if you are issuing school certs, there is no mechanism to prevent you.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I said drift away from KKW not break away. If one is no longer seeking higher KKW rank, doesn't submit one's students for KKW certification, isn't interested in more KKW training, arguably one is drifting away. And if those 3 conditions are true, then it's just an issue of semantics about the wording.

Yes, you did say drift, and I said break. And yes, you are correct in what you say above. I think that there are fewer people who drift away/break away from the KKW than from other organizations is mainly because unless you jetison the KKW specific material entirely, there really is little reason to.

The real question is whether this means you still practice KKW TKD or not, especially if you have made a mental determination to use your own internal standard as the final arbiter.

Well, if you don't still practice it, then the eyebrow raising issue becomes a non-issue: not KKW cert because it isn't KKW material.

My eyebrow comment was only with regards to schools that have changed nothing except the cert.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

But who does that? People who leave organizations generally change their curriculum, if only for legal reasons if we're talking ATA.

A lot of instructors teach the Kukkiwon curriculum but do not give Kukkiwon certification, at least in the US. The US has so many Kukkiwon certified instructors that if every single one gave out Kukkiwon certificates to all their students, the US would be the leader in number of Kukkiwon certifications, not Korea.

 

[puunui]

Glenn, have you considered asking the KKW to change the name of the art they practice to Taesoodo? Since, obviously, what they're doing isn't so completely different from what Gen. Choi envisioned Taekwon-Do as being? You can't have your cake and eat it, too, after all.

We all would be calling it Taesoodo if General Choi hadn't forced the KTA to change the name. As for what General Choi envisioned, I don't think too many are going along with that, not even you. Are you part of NK ITF for example? Isn't that what General Choi envisioned, that the ITF be led by Mr. Chang Ung? Besides, General Choi doesn't get to decide what is or isn't Taekwondo and he never did. He gave up that right when he forced the KTA to change the name of the art from Taesoodo to Taekwondo. At that point, he lost control of his precious and gave it up to the KTA.

 

[dancingalone]

Youth? For all intents and purposes, the KKW is only about eight years younger than the ITF and both have been around for about four decades, the ITF going on five.

I was talking about the forms, not the organizations. At least in Texas, the Palgwe and Taegeuk were quite rare well into the eighties. If you did TKD, you practiced Chang Hon forms. As people inevitably grew and split along factional lines, you began to see the growth of smaller independent groups, all still practicing the same forms but with increasing variation as well.

If Youtube is any indicator, the Palgwe are not immune to the same phenomenon.

I thinkd that the reason that there is less fragmentation is because you really don't join the KKW. You just certify students through them. Nothing to break away from because there's nothing to join.

Maybe so. The main examples I know of people drifting away from the KKW are GM Kim Soo and Ralph's GM. There are probably others.

I suspect that you're more likely to see Palgwes being done by independent groups.

Probably if we are comparing to the Taegeuk series. Performed with medium to low stances, the Palgwe are a reasonable enough substitute for any other pattern set for indie schools.

The dobok doesn't really mean anything one way or the other. The KKW doesn't enforce vee necks. My master wears a crossover because it was given to him by a sales rep and he finds it comfortable. The thing has dragons all over it. But he's a KKW sixth dan and issues KKW certs to all students.

Other than that ITA guy I saw on Youtube, I know of NO ONE who uses the white v-necks who is not in KKW TKD. This may only be anecdotal evidence, but I stand by it. The v-necks are very much a KKW trait, aside from the garish competition outfits used by sport point karate fighters.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well, I would hazard to say that in my opinion this is a conclusion drawn from experience which doesn't raise above the level of anecdotal evidence given the size of the KKW membership. YMMV, of course.

Absolutely. If I am off base, I would be curious to know; I have no personal attachment to my conclusion.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Other than that ITA guy I saw on Youtube, I know of NO ONE who uses the white v-necks who is not in KKW TKD. This may only be anecdotal evidence, but I stand by it. The v-necks are very much a KKW trait,

Completely. I was just saying that a non-Vee neck is not necesarilly an indicator that they are independent, that is all.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Youth? For all intents and purposes, the KKW is only about eight years younger than the ITF and both have been around for about four decades, the ITF going on five.

For all intents and purposes, the Kukkiwon really began in 1961, with the formation of the KTA. It was the KTA which set the curriculum and also started issuing dan certificates, a role inherited from the KTA at its formation. For example, the what we now call the Kukkiwon poomsae was created by a KTA committee, and the dan certifications given by the KTA were grandfathered into the Kukkiwon. Most who receive Kukkiwon dan certification have serial numbers which begin with "5" or "05", but if you had received a KTA dan, then your Kukkiwon number starts with a "1" or "01".

 

[puunui]

Other than that ITA guy I saw on Youtube, I know of NO ONE who uses the white v-necks who is not in KKW TKD.

I believe that Hwarangdo uses v necks for at least part of their dobok. It might be colored though.

 

[puunui]

If one is no longer seeking higher KKW rank, doesn't submit one's students for KKW certification, isn't interested in more KKW training, arguably one is drifting away. And if those 3 conditions are true, then it's just an issue of semantics about the wording.

A lot of people out there are seeking higher Kukkiwon certification, but don't give Kukkiwon certification to their students, and aren't interested in further training. That is a huge group in the US.

 

[dancingalone]

I believe that Hwarangdo uses v necks for at least part of their dobok. It might be colored though.

They use a variation of the general's uniforms also used in Kuk Sool Won. Flashy stuff. A v-neck shirt might be part of the outfit, I do not know.

 

[dancingalone]

A lot of people out there are seeking higher Kukkiwon certification, but don't give Kukkiwon certification to their students, and aren't interested in further training. That is a huge group in the US.

I would call those people rank hypocrites if you'll excuse the pun, and they should be outed and shamed.

 

[puunui]

They use a variation of the general's uniforms also used in Kuk Sool Won. Flashy stuff. A v-neck shirt might be part of the outfit, I do not know.

Kuk Sool Won and Hwa Rang Do both used to be part of the same group. Their curriculum at one point was the same.