'Okinawan Karate'

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by Zenjael, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Alex, I think the most obvious thing from your posts here is that:
    - you think you have real experience, knowledge, skill, and understanding.
    - you actually don't have any of the above.

    Now, whether this is because you have been misled over your time by less than skillful instructors basically making stuff up along the way, or because you have no self-editing ability, that's up for debate. But it is painfully obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all in anything you've posted on. An example? Sure!

    One more time.... "acu" has no place in the terminology here. But more than that, attacking nerves doesn't create locks, attacking joints does. It's really not possible to "lock" a nerve... other than that, this entire thread (and especially the aboce quote) simply serves to point out that, no matter what your claims of experience, you really don't have any that any here would count.
     
  2. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Sorry it took so long to get to the OP but had to clear some collateral damage alonge the way. :)
     
  3. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Damn! Chris, what took you so long to get here? I'm tagging you! :)
     
  4. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    Wow... you actually brought Wiki-wrong into this.


    Wait... your Chinese bagua teacher also learned Daito-ryu AND Aikido?? In a post WW2 environment?? Where exactly did this happen?

    It's already been said... :deadhorse

    :bs: I was covering double digit feet before you were long thought about. I believe I mentioned even toasting my knee doing that same kick probably about the same time you were born.

    Umm... Size does matter. The bigger the player, the more mass is brought. A guy I know teaches Gao Bagua. He's built like a fire hydrant. You don't want him snatching you up. My Gao Xingyi teacher is an older guy... boxer... TSD from the 70's & 80's... 6'3" or so... also teaches Gao Bagua. You dont want him getting close to you. Size matters.

    Dong Hai Chuan was reported to be a large framed guy. Yin Fu wasn't. Cheng Ting Hua bigger than Yin Fu. Yin's bagua is different than Cheng's. Yin was Lohan adept, Cheng a Shuai Jiao player. Yin's is different than Cheng's. Yin's works one way, Cheng's another, but they're the same thing.

    You can't say bulk wouldn't work for bagua. It might not work for you, but bulk works very well.

    Umm... this applies to anybody.


    Yeah... not so sure about that one. Can you provide something on that?
     
  5. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I leave MT for a few hours and I come back to a tornado.

    Here's the thing, Zenjael. You're picking out basic physical observations which actually aren't too meaningful when discussing what makes a system 'Shorin-ryu'. Raised stances compared to what? Quicks strikes to nullify the attack? I'd hope most strikes would be quick as slow ones generally don't work unless the opponent has already been neutralized. Deconstruct? What does that mean? A single punch in the jaw can 'deconstruct' and overwhelm in the same moment.

    It seems that we have different conceptions of what makes an art that art (hint: it's not all physical), which is fine once we understand what you're actually trying to say.

    I guess if we're speaking broad terms. The fact is that karate is really up to the practitioner. The tool box is all there - it's up to the individual to pull out the correct tool for the right job or to favor a specific subset if he wants. A full martial art once you've actually tapped the depths of it goes way beyond simple adjectives like linear or hand-oriented.

    Are you saying Shorin-ryu came from Shotokan and Chinese Kempo? If so this is incorrect. Shotokan is a Japanese evolution of the karate taught by "Anko" Itosu to Funakoshi, Gichin. Shorin-ryu is a somewhat modern name for the Te taught in Shuri village and Itosu Sensei would fall in this group if we must choose a classification for him. Incidentally, the Chinese connections for Shorin-ryu are much more obscured and faded over time. While it is probably accurate to say there was some influence there, the statement itself doesn't mean much, and serious students of Okinawan martial arts understand that.

    Jhoon Rhee did not create the Chung Do Kwan style. He is a senior member of Chung Do Kwan and finished his training there before he emigrated to the United States, before the unification movement within TKD essentially created a (mostly)common form of study now under the Kukkiwon umbrella.

    What you say about Chung Do Kwan punches being converted Wing Chun punches is news to me. The first kwan head of the Chung Do Kwan, LEE Won Kuk, studied early Shotokan karate, and the rotating technique of the horizontal punch within TKD is largely one-for-one the same as in JKA Shotokan karate today.

    I said nothing at all about tradition and TKD above. And the relative youth of the art is no revelation to most here.

    I don't think LEE Won Kuk studied Taekkyon at all, but perhaps someone who knows better will chime in. There is at least one person on MT who has talked with GM Lee in person.

    FAR older? The Pinan forms were introduced in the early 1900s by Itosu Sensei. His student Funakoshi took them to Japan and renamed them the Heian sometime in the 1920s or 1930s. Depending on which historical event you pick, TKD started in the 1940s, 1950s, or 1970s.

    Assuming I understand you correctly, why should it be unusual that no one at your studio realized your instructor changed and made up his own forms albeit using other forms as source material? This is nothing new. It's happened before and will happen again.

    It depends on whom you choose to believe/follow, but I personally don't believe there was much if any of any of those 3 Korean ancient arts in TKD as it was during the kwan era or in the early unification period. I can definitely believe there is an effort now to research and preserve them now if possible with a goal of reintroducing ideas from them gradually into mainstream TKD.

    The person on MT who is personally acquainted with LEE Won Kuk, says GM Lee learned a higher natural stance from Funakoshi Sensei, rather than the deeper stances commonly associated with JKA Shotokan. I would be curious if you could provide a more extensive description and critique of what you think Chung Do Kwan's technical standards are for stances, theory of power production, movement, etc. are.

    I'd say it's more accurate (and politic) to state that a person's expression of TKD can vary greatly depending on whom their teacher was, as the technical standards of TKD have evolved over time within and without enforcing organizations.

    More on the rest of your post as I have time. Suffice it to say, I think much of what you've written is very inaccurate to say the least and you should probably revisit the topics with a knowledgeable guide so as to avoid passing along misinformation to others.
     
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  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    If we were all offering different ideas and disagreeing with each other, okay. But we're not. We're all telling you the same damn thing.

    And you're not listening.

    It's really not "uncouth in martial arts" (whatever that may mean...) to assume you're wrong because you keep saying things that are incorrect, you know. It might be considered "uncouth in martial arts" to continually ignore what you're being told, though... although that would probably just be considered "uncouth" in regards to basic manners and netiquette.

    In short, you don't know one tenth of what you think you do, and what you do know is likely made up garbage. Time to start over, I feel. Strap on a white belt, find a proper school, and try to learn something, if you can.
     
  7. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Doesn't it get tiring,though?
     
  8. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Umm....what? So, the acu term is just what I thought...something made up. Once again, you seem to be missing this....Kyusho is the proper term. As Chris said, you don't need to attack a nerve to get a lock. I do locks all the time in Arnis, and I'm not targetting the nerves prior to the lock. If you look at what Dillman does, he's striking a nerve or series of nerves, to get a desired result, which is usually a KO.

    But what does this have to do with the topic?
     
  9. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    QFT! I second and third this! LOL! Might I add to this Chris....spend more than a few months. Try spending years, preferably upwards of 10+.
     
  10. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    I just couldn't go to bed and leave this .... :)
     
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  11. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I believe it is Goju, Uechi, and and Shorin. Isshin-Ryu has been submitted to the Okinawan Prefecture Karate Rengokai for recognition, but has not yet been formally accepted as I understand it. I believe Wado is Japanese.

    http://www.gojukarate.co/Products/gojuryukarate/traditionalkaratedefined
     
  12. Brian King

    Brian King Master of Arts

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    Whew, this thread reminds me of a fun proverb, a quotation, and a joke. The proverb I first learned it as a Spanish proverb, then heard it was Italian, and just recently read that it was Chinese... sounds like a great meal regardless of where it originated.


    “Si alguien le llama un culo, no te preocupes. Si dos personas te llaman una mirada culo en el espejo para estar seguro, pero si tres personas te llaman un culo que usted debe comprar una silla de monta”


    Roughly translated (thank you google), substituting burro for a three letter word that starts with an A and is followed by a couple of s’s. Political correct and all that, but I do think the three letter word works so much better on many different levels.


    “If someone calls you an *** burro, do not worry. If two people call you an *** burro look in the mirror to be sure, but if three people call you an *** burro you should buy a saddle.”


    The way I first heard it, rather than saddle the term used was “a bridle” which I have often found appropriate for many circumstances this proverb comes to mind.


    The quotation that comes to mind is one attributed to Albert Einstein. “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”


    If not truly insane then this joke comes to mind.


    A guy went out bear hunting one day. He saw a bear and shot it. It was a perfect shot in the head. He walked over to retrieve the dead bear and it wasn't there on the ground. He was wondering where it went. Then he felt a tap on his shoulder. He looked back and it was a bear. The bear said, "Grab your ankles." So the hunter did and the bear mounted him.
    The next day, the hunter went back out hunting with a bigger gun. He thought, "I am going to get that bear this time!"
    He saw the bear, shot him twice, then he noticed the bear was again not on the ground when he tried to retrieve it.
    He got another tap on the shoulder. You guessed it, a bear again, saying, "Grab your ankles."
    The next day the guy went out again, this time he had a 50 caliber machine gun with Armor piercing, explosive tip rounds.
    He saw the bear and filled him full of lead! Then he got another tap on the shoulder. He looked back and saw a bear. The bear said, "You know, I am beginning to think that you are not really coming out here to hunt!"


    Someone pass the popcorn would ya? Also perhaps a cold beer to wash it down?


    Regards
    Brian King
     
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  13. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Hi Zenjael

    To be very skilled in Daito ryu would take along time. I am guessing at least 10-20 years. He would most likely started in the 1930-40's so he may have trained with Ueshiba and Takeda or his son was teaching. I am guessing your teacher is Chinese if so it should be easy to find his name in the books for Daito ryu and Aikido for that time period.
    If he trained in Daito ryu he may have been friends with Ueshiba and already skilled so I'd think he would have achieved a pretty high rank in Aikido.
     
  14. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    So, your "Krav Maga" training was from unnamed military personnel. The US military doesn't use Krav Maga. Some individuals have undoubtedly trained in it -- but I'd be skeptical of you having learned Krav that way. Care to name a couple techniques that you learned?

    Alex... You don't know half of what you think you do. You've got a thorough background in taekwondo, in several forms. You count your "training" in things in a bizarre manner. By your standards, I suppose I've training Krav Maga (actually, I have a very specific instructor license in particular range of Krav Maga techniques), bagua, taekwondo, and lots more. Nope. I train in Bando. For longer than you've lived. I don't consider myself to have mastered it, though there are those who say I know a fair bit. Don't know. I still find time to train with others, and to work on things from my teacher's earliest lessons. I've been exposed to and learned a bit of the rest, in narrow circumstances.
     
  15. Ray B

    Ray B Green Belt

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    First my I ask, is this the Alexander Borschel that we are talking with?


    I find it interesting that you list the Red Ranger as a point of expertise...

    "The Red Power Ranger when the series first took off at the beginning of the decade, features a martial artist using Chung Do Kwan. Who happened to be taught by the same person who taught me."

    Also to clarify, Tang Soo Do is not named so to honor it's Chinese roots. It is the Korean pronunciation of Kara Te Do (before the kanji change to empty).

    I try not to get into these kind of pissing matches, and to respond by correcting the young man is only giving him the information that he is fishing for.
    Why should we give him all the answers when we have put in the time and effort.

    Alex is a young man trying to make himself out to be greater than he really is.
    He is trying to build his street credit here but is not doing a good job of it.
     
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  16. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    I was too tired to check, not to mention exhausted by my literary efforts. Thank you for the clarification. :)
     
  17. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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  18. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Moderator Note:

    This thread has been moved to Forum:
    The Great Debate due to excessive forum disruption surrounding the OP. We have not vetted this thread for content. If members other than the OP wish it restored please contact the Administrators.

     
  19. Ray B

    Ray B Green Belt

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    After skimming over his posts, I'm speechless.
    Clearly not someone worth my time and more so, not someone I want to give my hard earned insights to...
     
  20. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I must have been under a rock...

    I am sorry I wasted the time replying in a serious fashion to this guy.
     

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