Honor

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by Zenjael, Apr 5, 2012.

  1. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    As a Martial Artist, what is honor to you?

    The text below I have quoted is the background as to why I am asking this question.

    Sorry for typos, my arms hurt after typing this.
     
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  2. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    I'm not worried about honor. I'm worried about going home. For most CMA practitioners of the fuedal era honor was a convenience when needed. Most of the practitioners of TCMAs were not nice people & honor didn't always mean the same thing to another.

    Honor be damned. If it's legal, I'm going to use it to get home.
     
  3. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    @Zenjael, I agree with several of the assertions - particularly that honour exists beyond our quite narrow definition of the word. I think when we move away from our MA-informed view of honour and appreciate that honour is a quality of being honourable, then it is more apparently an everyday common trait that most of us (I believe) demonstrate.

    As you have correctly identified, honour is not an intrinsic concept. By its definition honour cannot be conveyed inside the conscious mind. It can only be demonstrated as a behavioural response to another behaviour.

    As a martial artist what does this mean to me? It means that I try to conduct myself respectfully, govern myself by the core way of my art even under the duress of conflict which is not always easy, do not misrepresent myself, defer when it is appropriate and regard my own esteem and that of others highly yet making no obligation of others to act similarly and but still hoping my demonstration is enough for them to reciprocate. It is often not :) However, this to me is my way of demonstrating honour.

    ps. I think pavlonic is not a word I know and but from the context I think you are referring to the Pavlov conditioning experiments then the correct adjective = Pavlovian :) Do not want any marks squandered as a result of silly mistakes! Kind wishes.
     
  4. yak sao

    yak sao Senior Master

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    I'm too ADD to read your posts, there may be some good stuff in there, but my eyes glaze over when I see all that text....as for honor, to me it's more pragmatism than philosophy.....a matter of minding your own business and staying out of trouble until it's thrust upon you.
     
  5. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    I don't know...I think Chen Fa Ke was exceptionally honorable when he beat the hell out just about all who challenged him :D
     
  6. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    I'm sure he was when it came time for gong sau or lei tai matches. I was more broad brushing. Professional soliders, rebels, caravan guards, body guards, etc...

    Sent from my Thunderbolt on Tapatalk. Excuse the auto-correct spelling errors.
     
  7. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    And of course we should not forget how honorable Yang Shaohou allegedly was when a student asked him to demonstrate fajin and he did…and killed the student.

    However I am not sure what compartmentalized category of fajin it was so... :lfao: (sorry everyone, inside joke with CLFSean)
     
  8. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Honor be damned? If you're going to neglect it in the name of survival, why pull anything in the name of survival. Might as well butcher them in the process also. I think honor is where you know how to act, in a situation, and act accordingly, without taking any kind of personal benefit from what need be done. I kinda like the idea of calling a cab with a karate chop tho.

    What happens when you live in an area where the legal methods to defend yourself are effectively 0. Further, if you do, you can end up in jail for years. F jail, it's not as fun as it seems. Sometimes you might have to kill just so you can live to get to your trial. It sucks, but sometimes that's the situation people get stuck with. As martial artists, and the people who are most likely to end up in the situation, I it's more practical to know when. Cause that button you shouldn't push, you shouldn't push, but it is there for a reason.

    Ach, I knew I saw it in there. I scrolled up to do a ctrl+F but instead flipped the keyboard the bird because I still have to finish the paper in question. Thank you though, your post means a lot to me that somebody actually read that wall of text and found something conducive out of it... instead of well, the usual lol.
     
  9. WC_lun

    WC_lun Senior Master

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    For me, honor has nothing to do with martial arts. I would act as I do whether I trained or did not train. I think most people are the same. I believe some people like to attach the word honor to martial arts in an attempt to make martial arts practitioners something they are not. A person's morals do not change because they study martial arts, though those morals may be tested in ways a non-martial artist may not be. I see this in the same vien as instructors who like to play at the fantasy of martial artist being super human in some way or enlightened.
     
  10. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    Y'know... this just kinda shows me you don't understand self defense & survival. There's no such thing as a fair fight. You don't heap praises about what a worthy advisary the crack head was that you flattened to keep him doing the same to you. Martial arts is about one thing... winning to go home. My training is better than yours because I'm going home & you're laid out.

    Your description of honor was what WC_lun said, morals. There's a difference between honor & morals. There's a line to not cross to keep things from becoming illegal. But honor is not right & wrong. You were referring to right & wrong. I'm talking about going home any way I can, within the bounds of the law.


    Like you've ever been to jail.
    :BSmeter:
    To your comment about martial artists are the people to end up in the situation & answer your question (that wasn't a questions), all I can say is you need to change your friends & your neighborhood.
     
  11. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Define "honor." Define "emotion." Until you do that -- you're spitting into the wind on the topic.
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I've never heard "honor" described as an emotion. Honor, integrity, character, strength of will, selflessness... these are attributes. Anger, rage, sadness, happiness... these are emotions. Two very different things.

    My dad said to me when I was a little guy (probably after I'd just lied about something stupid), that honor and integrity were the only two things that could never be taken from you. You have to give them away.
     
  13. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Zenjeal

    Honor is honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions and I think you are focusing on Bushido more than martial arts.
     
  14. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    I believe honor is an important part of Martial Arts training. But, I am somewhat of a hypocrite. For, as a wise man once said, "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck."
    In the case of self defense, honor be damned.

    It seems that many people overlook honor as part of martial arts. That saddens me. Maybe it's an example of Yin Yang, and maybe I'm just full of crap. But, really, do we want to discount honor so easily? Are we just fighters? I like to think we are something more.
     
  15. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    More attempting to philosophy basic actions.
    I shant say more.
     
  16. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    In your opinion, how would you explain the bowing in and bowing out of sparring matches. Is this a way of showing honor or respect as we proceed to destroy them. Asking with all due respect.
    Anyone else want to weigh in.
     
  17. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    First off, you aren't an intellectual, and this entire post shows a deep lack of understanding of a huge number of things. I'm getting a little fed up with it, though, so I'm going through the entire thing bit by bit.

    Strap in, this'll take a while....

    We'll come back to this, first we're going to clear up the truly astounding amount of bad precepts, false assumptions, and simply screwed up ideas throughout this winding, pointless (in the main) post of yours.

    So here's my question... all of this is put down in your words, written for this forum (in other words, it's not part of anything you've written for a school assignment, or anything similar), so why is it in quotations? Where did you take it from? The main reason I ask is that the use of quotation boxes is to show that something has come from another source, removing the basic ideas from yourself, but that's not the case here at all.

    But to get to it...



    Hmm. A "400 level class" just really means that it's a fourth year class... but, so you know, nostalgia isn't an emotion per se, it's more a feeling derived from a range of emotions, and linked into particular criteria. But what we refer to as nostalgia today is not what was referred to back then, either (it was used to refer to a form of mental disorder, and had the meaning of an unhealthy obsession with past events, to the point of not being interested in the present. Essentially, it was a form of depression, and would be linked into suicidal tendencies and so on... interestingly, the term itself refers to homesickness, with the additional belief that you'll never see home again), so you're already starting with a false premise on a few fronts.



    No, they don't. The use of language around them might, but not often when it comes to emotions (meaning true emotions). Your second sentence doesn't make any sense. What field? Why do you always add "where, when, and a theory as to why?" If you're saying that you need to understand the context (modern or older) when using language, well, yeah.



    What study is less than a quarter of a century old? Really, Alex, you've provided no context of what the hell you're talking about.... but please don't tell me you consider yourself a "scholar", aspiring or not... scholars tend to know the meanings of the words they use.



    "Causation"? And what does this have to do with anything?



    Right... coming from you, that's quite a statement...



    Then stop. It's not one.



    It's not. Paper done.



    No, behaviour can be based on a concept of honour, but honour is not behavioural. Honour is more about personal integrity within certain situations. So you're wrong in both your precepts there.



    "Causually"? And no, not necessarily. Behaviour is defined as actions, thoughts, words etc, but it's not necessarily in response to something.



    Well, that's a lot of words that don't really say anything... and no. There's a larger factor involved.



    Actually, we do that all the time. The instant you see someone you assess them, their place respective to yours, and how you're going to need to interact with them. You see, human beings are social creatures, and we've been doing this for millenia now.



    Er, what? No. By walking into a martial art class, for instance, and recognizing who is a teacher, and who is a student has absolutely nothing to do with honour at all. You're really just trying far too hard to confuse yourself here.



    Well, no, we don't act "honourable", but we do act honourably. And acting honourably is basically saying that you act in a way that is seen as being honourable... so, uh, what are you saying there? "Carrying a value to honour"?



    Er, we do. All the time. Mainly when reading your posts.



    And when you act because of anger, you act angrily.... so.... huh?



    Wow, did you even read that yourself? "The emotion does not dictate.... it can... but it heavily influences it..."? You're going in three directions at once here, Alex. The rest makes no sense whatsoever.

    Oh, and the word you want is "often", not "oft". Again.



    Something you're trying to tell us?



    Right. And that has what to do with honour being an emotion or not? But at least you're almost on the right path here... look to the ideas of the development of socialisation in the human race, starting with hunter-gatherer tribes, through to the agricultural development, and you'll see that you've been wrong in all your ideas so far.



    Nor anything correct, from what we've seen.



    Really? And what makes you think you can do anything to "clean up what is already there"? I ask as you seem rather ignorant of the realities you're discussing.



    Huh?



    Hang on, did you just suggest that we react, then internalize, and that leads to what causes us to act... even though we've already reacted in your construct there? Alex, no... just.... no.



    Sure. It's your pheromones that have lead to the response you've generated here....



    Imagine our shock....



    That's the only reason?



    Ah. No, not the only reason then.



    "Xtian"? Weren't you telling people that you're versed in religious ideals and theology? Kind of a faux pas there, then...

    And you do understand that there hasn't been much for us to actually give such statements any credence, yeah?



    No, it's not disingenuous (but well done on using a big word properly!), it's a basic aspect of psychology. If you think such things to be unusual, you're decades behind the times, son. At least.



    You tested it? How? Seriously, all this is just telling me you don't have a clue what you're actually trying to explain or explore.



    No, Alex, it tells you that people alter their behaviours to fit into the different social environments and situations that they find themselves in. As to "reason or cause", that's not really part of it, unless you can state what the particular reason is that the behaviour alters in one or another situation... which isn't what you've described here.



    Good for you. Are you actually going to say anything to do with your actual topic any time soon?



    So again you're deciding what you think things should be like with absolutely no basis or experience?



    Rethink it, then.



    "Causation"? And what does honour have to do with this? So far you haven't said anything that even tangentially relates to it.



    Because that's the way human beings work, Alex. You're not special, or different.



    "Pavlonic"? You meant "Pavlovian", yeah? "Similar to Pavlov's Dog's experiment"?



    Again, what does anything here have to do with "honour", Alex? You had a teacher who was an overt disciplinarian, which honestly just pushes it more into the "questionable" category, but nothing here has anything to do with your own topic.



    Right.



    Liked the sound of his own voice, huh?



    How are you defining "sense" there? There's a difference between a sense (hearing, touch, taste), which is a method of attaining information from the world around you, and having a "sense" of something (humour, common sense, sense of honour - hey, what d'ya know, the topic! Knew I'd find it somewhere around here....), which is an internal way of interpreting the world and your interaction with it.



    So you make the claim that there are up to 25 senses, without clarifying what you mean by "sense", and then say to not ask you what they are, as you can't say? What was the point of this?



    You're not a bat.



    You're also not a dolphin.

    And no, it's nothing like kiai.



    That's not really what Kiai means, though.



    Seriously. You're not a dolphin. And you don't understand kiai as a concept.



    Where do you get this from?



    Oh, for crying out loud... the "katana wielder" (I thought you said you'd trained in Kenjutsu, although you've never answered where, under who, or what system...) who can cut airsoft bullets is a showman, not a swordsman. It really has no relevance whatsoever.



    You can't talk about honour as an emotion, as it isn't one.



    No kidding...



    Really?



    Hmm... nope.



    No, when you try to look at honour as an emotion, as it isn't one, it's impossible. Didn't you ever think that that's why you're finding such problems with your premise?



    Because that's not the way honour works. Honour is seen in the observing, not as a response mechanism.



    "Causation"? Again? And no, the "working theory" (alternately known as the "definition") of honour doesn't label it as a behaviour, it is a concept related to morals and ethics which can then be used to describe aspects of behaviour.



    What are you talking about?



    Huh? Dude, you're not making any sense....



    What field?



    Hang on, you went to Cambridge now?



    Perhaps if you understood what honour was, you may have your answer there.



    Have you considered that:

    a) That's not anything to do with honour, more about respect, which is really not the same thing at all.
    b) It's such a convoluted premise that there's no reason for it
    c) You are looking at things from such a tiny sense of perspective that you really have no idea what's really going on.



    I can imagine you're the only martial artist on the planet who had this idea, as I've never come across anyone so misguided as to what you're talking about. But hey, if you want to strap electrodes to your brain when you see your instructor, go for it....



    Is this meant to make sense? At all? Really?

    Honour is not a behaviour.

    Respect is not the same as honour.

    And honestly, what kind of sentence structure is that supposed to be?



    What?



    Nope. "Honour" is not the "established acceptable norms" at all... in fact, it's more commonly a idealised way of holding to personal integrity, and is not the norm... hence it being recognized. And, as it's completely situationally based, you really can't get "concrete data" to define it.



    Honour is not an emotion. You really don't have a clue what you're talking about here.



    So what you're saying is that this began because you have extrapolated a false premise by not understanding the very simple, basic concept of situational differences? Wow.



    Then you're looking in the wrong area, and have so much bad information and poor conceptual workings that I don't think you have much chance of getting far with this. And as far as honour changing, that's pretty much defined by the social environment at the time.



    Wow, how much fantasy are you trying to live by here?

    Let's just say... no.



    First you need to learn what honour actually is, as you've missed it completely.



    What?



    "Analyzation"? Uh, "analysis" perhaps? Seriously, if you don't know how to use the words, don't use them.

    "How honour behaviourally affects martial arts"? Dude, what kind of sentence structure is that? How about before you start thinking about what to write a paper on, you look at how to write... then learn something about your subject.



    Forgive us, but you're hardly the resident expert on martial arts here.



    Marines don't bow to each other, either. And parkour as a martial art? Seriously?



    So again you're making comment on something with no basis in experience or knowledge? And no, parkour has no immediate relevance to any martial art, modern or not.



    Parkour has nothing to do with "energy channeling"... so.... what?



    What experience do you have in Aikido? And no, that's not what parkour does.



    What on earth does that mean?



    And again.... what?

    Frankly, Alex, 90%+ of this post has nothing to do with even your own topic, going off on bizarre tangents, saying nothing at all. So if your arms hurt after typing it, well, learn to be a bit more concise, and stay on topic yourself. Oh, and learn to only use words that you understand. Common mistakes are "oft", "opine"... these are never used correctly by yourself.

    But to get back to it, and to what the core topic really should be here:

    Honour is a personal concept, based in having personal integrity and congruence in your actions in line with an ethical and moral code. Depending on the context, it will change...
     
  18. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    I do not think honour is an emotion from the set of emotions that some have described in the posts above.

    The closest honour can come to an emotion is being seen as a "social emotion". This however is distinct from the internalised emotions that have been amply described here already, in my opinion. Honour is instead a notional response (as you have asserted) that is informed by the social context of the honourable person. The implication is that what is honourable in one social group is quite the opposite in another. And which I think this is borne out in reality, no?

    And why should I not read your wall of text? :) You have posted it and so I assume you regard it as worthy of reading. Well so do I. I understand what you mean by "the usual". I think a proportion of the reception you are receiving is driven by the perception of affront among those that might give you that reception. People are fragile no matter how tough they seem :) To utilise fragility on the other hand I think is a clever way to fight. I wish you well.
     
  19. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    I...
    I need to take a breath.
    That was too good.
     
  20. The Last Legionary

    The Last Legionary All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu

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    I don't even know where to begin.

    123
     
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