'Okinawan Karate'

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by Zenjael, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Similar is not the same as, but when it's the same, it's the same. I consider there to be 3 types of 'front-stances' in martial arts, a very deep one, a medium, but still considered deep one, and the higher found in karate. I might argue that there is a more relaxed type than that, like a front stance found in some chinese martial arts, but at that point it's a walking stance.



    From my understanding the motion is less of a push through, and more of a strike which from the momentum of your full body moving forward, drives the strike in without needing to twist or torque. It's short, and powerful movements, are not very effectual when you are small. The issue is not that there is no balance; for the strikes in Isshin their stances are more than capable of providing the base needed, but when you try to operate a swinging round-kick, or the more complicated kicks from Taekyon, the stances begin to lack as they weren't designed for kicks like that. For one thing, it's trying to force circular techniques down the throat of a linear system.


    I am not sure if I said shotokan is based on chinese martial arts, but I do not believe it is. I believe I stated it is Tang Soo Do which is based off Chinese Kempo, but this is readily aparent when you translate tang soo do and it is supposedly 'chinese way of the hand'. Go-figure. That name was apparently made up by Won Kuk Lee as well.

    I have to wonder how much of MA, especially TKD, is just shill. There is really not enough difference despite what I wrote about between the kwans for there to be 9, and much of the division is political, which is stupid for a martial art. At least to me it is.
     
  2. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Shimabuku Soke:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatsuo_Shimabuku

    He was a very small person by American standards. He was devastatingly powerful and again I ask why would he invent a system he himself could not be proficient in?

    The answer, not surprisingly, is that your statement is incorrect.

    Please stop making statements like that about an art you clearly know nothing about.
     
  3. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    Couple of points...

    1 - No such critter as "Chinese Kempo". This is an Americanism. Regardless of what you see out there, literally the words don't match. It's like saying "Kobe Fried Chicken" or a "Centerfire Musket". Chinese practice quan fa or kuen faht depending on the dialect. They do not practice kempo.

    2 - TSD is more closely related to JMA than anything CMA. I know what they say & I've seen a couple of advanced hyungs of theirs. I see no more CMA influence there than in Shotokan. Really & truly the only OMA styles that display any concrete CMA origins in my experience & opinion, are Goju ryu & Uechi ryu.

    In Shorin ryu, I know the name pays respects back to CMAs, but I'm not seeing CMAs in how they move.
     
  4. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

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    Bit of a tough sell. The word "kenpo" is a translation of "quan fa". And there are no shortage of people who would disagree with you about the term "chinese" being mismatched to "kenpo"

    But I'll let someone a little more versed in the history go into detail.
     
  5. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Think this could be a late night!
     
  6. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    Let me rephrase & that might help. This is a peeve of mine. You won't find any serious TCMA practitioner calling what they do kempo. We don't do kempo. We practice wu shu/mo suet or quan fa/kuen faht. Even then, the quan fa/kuen faht terms normally have very specific ideas behind their usage.

    Kempo is Okinawan. We don't practice Okinawan MAs. Okinawans may call what was learned in China "kempo" because that is their translation, but to say something is Chinese Kempo as a defined term is to like calling ramen, spaghetti.
     
  7. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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  8. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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  9. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Perhaps you could answer the questions I have posed. Namely for your Shotokan karate, your Krav Maga and your Aikido, where did you train, with whom did you train and for how long did you train? That will give us a good understanding of where you are coming from.
     
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  10. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Sigh...I wasn't going to involve myself in this potential train wreck, but I'm sitting at work with nothing better going on, so I figured, what the hell...may as well jump into the pool. :D

    I've been training in Kenpo and Arnis the longest. I do not claim to know every single ounce of history, however, I know enough. I feel pretty confident that I could answer most questions pertaining to those arts, and if I couldn't, I have sources to get that info. from. I've jumped into the TKD sections here, the WC sections, the BJJ section, even the Ninjutsu section, and posted questions. One thing that I do not do, nor will I ever, is go into those sections, and start talking like I know all there is to know about TKD, when in reality, I have never trained in it a day of my life..lol.

    I think thats what we're seeing here. We see someone saying things, making claims, and being countered by others that know alot more than said individual, yet said individual doesn't want to listen. Go figure...lol.
     
  11. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Tell ya what...the :popcorn: and :cheers:
    are on me, while we wait, for what will most likely be forever, for an answer to these questions.
     
  12. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Hey, I don't practise Kenpo either. It's not an Okinawan term, it's more an American term. From my understanding Ed Parker was the first to use it in the US. I think he named his style "American Kenpo Karate". :)
     
  13. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    The Moscow Olympics? That would be quite impressive...

    The main issue here, is that even though you claim to have over two decades of experience, you have displayed a lack of fundamental knowledge about these systems. As you asserted above, knowing about something without having had any kind of real practice in it doesn't convey you a lot of knowledge.

    Please refresh my memory... I thought you had a shodan in "Okinawan Karate?"

    http://betterfly.com/va/fairfax/combat-sports-martial-arts-teachers/user-32427

    You also claimed 10+ years of training in Jiu Jitsu, yet no ranking? If you came from a respectable school, I really doubt that your sensei would allow you to essentially "audit" these classes, if you were solidly training in them.


    I thought that you have only practiced your "Okinawan Karate" for 5+ years? If I am wrong, you may want to update your lofty list of accomplishments!


    You may be able to tell what things look like on the surface, but you really *don't* have a deep understanding of all of those arts.

    I've practiced both systems for years (but never at the same time), so I am going to boldly claim that I am *somewhat* qualified to answer this. These two systems are significantly different from each other, and Chung Do Kwan is NOT Shotokan. The fundamental techniques differ quite a bit, in addition to the focus on many mechanics. While it's fair to say that Chung Do Kwan has significant Shotokan influence in it, it isn't the same as Shotokan + modified kicks.





     
  14. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

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    Definitely helps clear up your point. I'd venture even to say that you wouldn't find even NON-serious TCMAers call their stuff kempo. But calling something Chinese kenpo does make sense if someone has incorporated knowledge from Hung Gar and Choi Li Fut, for example, into their curriculum (such as Ed Parker Sr. When he was calling his product Chinese Kenpo)
     
  15. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

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    Not that it's literally correct. I get that. It's not.
     
  16. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Its not that anyone is claiming they 'know' the entire history of any martial art. We don't have to in this day, transitive memory allows us to remember where we need to look for info which is pertinent toward what we are discussing or learning about, and thankfully, wikipedia is an excellent compendium for cursory information on a subject. Martial arts history is convoluted, often, especially in relation to Korean, Chinese, and Japanese arts.

    This is fair. It's not a matter of not listening, or I frankly wouldn't be responding to this at all, but rather that we disagree. Frankly, assuming I'm just wrong on my opinion of things is a bit uncouth in martial arts, from my experience. I generally don't tell people, do it this way, because I might be in err of what their teacher expects, and has instructed. What's to counter? Are we debating? Sparring?

    the Aikido training I have had has been through several teachers. One is instructor Cotrell, though that was only for a few months. My teacher of Bagua was very skilled in daito ryu aikijujutsu, and learned Aikido in the 50s around the time they added 'dan' ranking for Aikidoka. I do not believed he was ranked in aikido. He just happened to enjoy Bagua, and was gifted at the art because he treated it less as a combat system, and more as something to add into the meditative circle walking.

    Krav Maga I learned from special forces members who frequented my family's home. My mother is a colonel in the army, and these guys were, from what I can gather, the army equivalent to CIA spooks. They wore no uniform, and tried to look civilian. You can always spot them out at an airport.


    Bill, I am also a small person, and I can cover a range of 10+ feet with a one step-motion kick. I made this kick up, designed it, everything. I have never witnessed another able to do it, much to my regret. It is not for lack of teaching. What works for some, might not for others. Being small doesn't stop us from being able to generate force or momentum, but arts which take advantage of those kind of forces, as opposed to speed or flexibility, are better suited toward larger people. Sure, a small person can do them, just as a small person can do Oh Do Kwan. It's not the same thing, though, as when its in the hands of those best suited toward it. I think the grossest example would be if you stuck a skinny person into a sumo match, even if they knew the style. the question isn't if it's doable, the question is why do it, when there are other paths which can be taken, with less resistance, which go better with your body? I know how to grapple specifically so I can escape from grabs, holds, and throws, not so I can execute them myself. I see no need to when my goal is to hit the vitals, as opposed to put someone on the ground. I do this because I have realized, when I actually go against professional jiujitsu people, who are MASSIVE, I cannot compare. I am happy to just not get hurt, and be able to unentangle from them. At least then, when standing, I can stomp on them if it were the street, and so on.

    But Bagua works with my small size; bulk would actually inhibit it. I don't need strength when there are other styles happy to give it to me. Isshin ryu has phenomenal power in my opinion, but this also just makes it easier to redirect them. Same thing for Shotokan. The lunging, aggressive tactile push forward is what works best for bagua to contront, and mitigate. In Karate, in TKD, there is a tendency to want to stand there and just take hits, and so the arts have become oriented for people to operate like that. But if you take an art which specializes in generating tremendous amounts of force this means a couple of things need to be kept in mind; normally, the more force comes at a cost to speed, and additionally, against arts designed to channel force, those arts which generate such tremendous physical force for striking... are only empower the person practicing the channeling art. The more force, the harder it is to control, and it takes next to no force to just position one's arm in a way to shift their strike a fraction to the left or right, and their power disintegrate harmlessly against the air.

    You want to know the easiest way to take down a practioner of Bagua, or Aikido? An Armbar. Simple, crude, and they get so close its nearly unavoidable at times if you do it right.





    I concur with this. TKD, likewise, just translates out into way of the hand and foot. Whose way? Why? I find korean arts lacking because they are kind of generic. Anytime you just decide to create a martial art to represent your national identity, and assemble a dozen masters to come up with something, in the end it's going to get a little wonky. That's my theory for why half of TKD looks like TKD, and the other like Karate, at least.

    Even then Uechi is debatable because Kanbun Uechi incorporated outside techniques while in china. That's not a bad thing, but if asking for 'pure' Okinawan karate... it gets a little fuzzy between the lines I think.
     
  17. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Awesome post. I haven't enjoyed something this much in a long time.

    Zenjael, you should consider a career in the political arena. I hear it's a great gig, and would still allow ample time for training.
     
  18. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Sorry, I disagree. Knowing the history of the art(s) that one trains in, is in fact very important, and is often part of rank exams. Imagine training under a teacher who had to always tell their student, "Hmm..I dont know that answer. Hang on, lemme run and look at wiki and I'll get right back to you." LMFAO.. laughable at best, pathetic at worst. You've made claims, people have questioned those claims, you've failed to answer the questions.



    I think it is a matter of not listening, because there're people here, who know 10 times more than you, have given you solid advice and you disregard it. Go figure.
     
  19. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    If they really were government operatives trying to look civilian, you would never know. I'm guessing that they would also have had quite a bit of experience when it came to training one's self to look incognito in public.

    If you try to cover 10+ feet with a single one step-motion kick, you're going to be telegraphing it severely. Unless you're some phenomenally well-built person the likes of Bruce Lee, of course.

    If it's really that good of a technique, I think we would have seen it on the WKF stage by now, utilized by the likes of George Kotaka, Shannon Nishi, etc.
     
  20. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    You completely side-stepped the statement I made. Shimabuku Soke was a small person and he invented Isshin-Ryu. It is clearly suited for smaller people, SINCE HE WAS ONE. Your opinion of the requirements is noted and rejected; you are incorrect, as should be eminently clear by the fact that the founder of the art was as small as you are. If you cannot make it work, that is YOUR PROBLEM. The art is suited for people of your size, period. Beyond dispute. Anything you say differently is both wrong and insulting. Stop pretending you know anything about Isshin-Ryu, you do not.

    And as a side-note, I once again ponder on your inability to address any subject without injecting your 'how great I am' statements. I don't care about the kick you invented and it has nothing to do with the subject. You're pure awesome, we all get that. None of us is impressed but you by your magical powers. Get over yourself.
     

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