New anti Sine Wave pattern deliveries on Youtube

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Acronym, Dec 28, 2020.

  1. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    73
    It went from miles away from Boxing textbooks to galaxies. The body mechanics of a baseball pitch has more in common with Boxing than Chois Sine Wave.
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,311
    Likes Received:
    7,400
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I'd challenge you to look into the stack-and-tilt golf swing. You can absolutely raise and lower a heel without dropping weight into that foot.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Yes but it makes no sense for a punch. The mechanics have nothing to do with boxing. Glad we put that to rest.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,311
    Likes Received:
    7,400
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    You're really stuck on boxing. You do recall this is a TKD forum, right?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    73
    You do recall that Mr Weiss started the "Sine Wave is boxing rabbit hole"?
     
  6. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    73
    My favorite Sine Wave quote uttered by my *** instructor is: "Sine Wave is physics!"

    Well, duh! Everything is physics!
     
  7. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Btw, if ones reach is possibly shortened by putting the rear heel down, as Weiss said, how does that not lead to sinking backwards (some of the time)? If your reach is less than before, then you must have gone in an opposite direction, If your fist at the same time is moving forward
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
  8. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    5,840
    Likes Received:
    1,691
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Southeast U.S.
    The easiest way to think of this is in two static positions. Stand near a wall and do a punch with heel on the ground. Measure the distance from the fist to the wall.
    Then simply raise the back heel up. For a number of reasons, the greatest being the angle of the back leg I think, your fist will move forward closer to the wall.

    Not trying to speak for Mr. Weiss, it is more complex than my simple answer in application however. There are a plethora of reasons why a person may want to have the heel off the ground and just as many why the heel needs to be planted.

    There just is not One answer to your query. I imagine every video you watch can lead to another question on the matter.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,444
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Agree! If your opponent moves back, how will you be able to reach him if you don't raise your back heel up?

    To assume that your opponent is always a static object is not a realistic assumption.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,090
    Likes Received:
    1,428
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Australia
    Yep this! I just did some bagwork, tried back heel up, back heel down, felt mostly the same hitting the bag, and was still able to generate and drive power into the bag. I even stood on one leg and you can actually still generate power haha. Not overly recommended against a live opponent but who knows!

    Heel up/heel down depends, and may even depend on what movement you're wanting to do AFTER the strike.

    But anyways, onward!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,444
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    In some MA systems, it's wrong when you are in the

    - beginner level, you punch with back heel up (you don't understand how to borrow the counter force from the ground)
    - advance level, you punch with back heel down (you don't understand how to do running punch).

    IMO, after the power has been generated from your back leg and reach to your hip. your back leg ground connection is no longer important.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    73
    That in it self reveals that you aren't utiziling proper leverage. Heel up is a huge difference when done right. If all you do is Karate, you won't know that. What you write is to be expected from someone with muscle memory that will overwrite any potential to change the muscle memory, because your body is hard-wired to punch in a certain way no matter what.
     
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  13. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,090
    Likes Received:
    1,428
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Australia
    Interesting conclusion of finality you've jumped to there! ;D It was a quick play around on the bag, and moreso to say that not everything we do has to be 100% maximum power 100% of the time anyway. Like I said, I could stand on one leg and get some solid of power through knowing my own equilibrium and utilising what I call 'sinking' and tight hip wobble/compression, maintaining good structure and balance.

    Each method of power generation/different body structures have pros and cons. Heel up vs heel down depends, it's a debate that seems to keep going on but they each have their own use.
     
  14. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,444
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    When you push a car, will your heels be up or down?

    If your heels are

    - down, why?
    - up, why?

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,009
    Likes Received:
    553
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Sir, If I said that (I think it a misquote) I mis spoke. What I say is the legs are used to generate punching power in Boxing. This is done thru flexing the knees. This knee flexion is what causes the up / down (down / up / down) motion General Choi used the term "SW" to describe. (A metaphor convenient to contrast with Flat Wave and Saw Tooth Wave) The idea of flexing the knees to generate punching power is not unique to TK-D. You may see it as different I see it as the same notwithstanding pattern motions being stylized and exaggerated.
     
  16. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,009
    Likes Received:
    553
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Sir, perhaps your key is "Some of the time" Look at the Suska video again. Raising the rear heel CAN extend the reach but if flex the rear knee as you raise the heal there is no forward motion so if you straighten the knee as you drop the heel there is no rearward motion. Don't believe me - believe your own eyes.

    Now, as far as "some of the time goes", if you keep the rear leg locked and raise the heel of that leg you will move forward and if you then drop the heel you would move backward. This is incorrect methodology. This was specifically addressed by General Choi due to a direct question at one IIC.
     
  17. Metal

    Metal Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Essen, Germany
    Then why did you post and ask about it on this forum instead of just giving your former instructor a call and ask about it?

    Btw, you didn't answer my question in that thread.

    Why did my ITF instructor give me EKF gloves?

    Sorry if you thought my intention was to denigrate you. My post was simply an advice to look beyond Youtube videos and if you look up your own posts, you'll realize that you post those a lot.

    There are few things that need to be considered:

    - With a lot of techniques, there isn't just one 'right' way to execute them.
    - Just because it's in a video and appears to be perfect in your eyes, does not mean that it's actually perfect
    - Some things can't really be compared: Taekwondo Kibon Dongjak movements and a Boxer's in fight movements for example.

    Also: This is a discussion platform for Martial Arts, with this is the Taekwondo Section. Discussion does not mean repeating and insisting on your own opinion over and over and ignoring the objections and explanations of others.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    73
    The knee flexion is purely symbolic if you are in the process of putting it back down when you punch. Not only have you failed to generate any extra power, since you are fixed in one position, you are guaranteeing this fixed stance by placing the heel down during the excecution phase. To add insult to injury, your reach will only be as good as the length of you arm.

    You can't say that placing the heel down is purely to reach the default fighting stance in the kata, since Chois principles clearly state it in the encyclopedias that it should be placed firmly on the ground at the moment of impact, and makes no exception to this rule.
     
  19. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,009
    Likes Received:
    553
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Sir, I am sorry but you are mistaken
    .
     
  20. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Then why isn't sine wave taught in mitts and sparring in TaeKwonDo schools?123
     

Share This Page