Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Bullsherdog, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. Bullsherdog

    Bullsherdog White Belt

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    Because of their frequent defeats in the early years of MMA especially in the first UFC tournament and because they failed to get much representation up until recently, traditional martial arts are now frequently bashed for creating ineffective fighting and using BS training and methods. In particular most schools of karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Kung Fu gets the most hack for this.

    However I'm watching the documentary TV series Human Weapon...... I am lovely shocked by how some of these traditional styles frequently criticized in the current martial arts climate have HARDCORE TRAINING in their highest quality school. The Tae Kwon Do episode had medium level practitioners smashing through stacks of hard floor tiles with one open hand strike, the karate episode shown incredible jumping and acrobatic training, the kung fu episodes shown stuff like carrying heavy objects while brisk walking, and the Ninjitsu Episode showed walking across wooden poles on a a pond and climbing buildings.

    In addition some of the showcased techniques are lovely insane and can literally break someone's ribs or smashed a skull cracked open if done correctly. At least KO an opponent VERY FAST.

    In addition all the fighters were muscular as hell, at worst skinny with no fat on their body and the strongest people can pass off for lighter classes of bodybuilders or looked like powerlifters.

    So I am curious. When the first UFC was taking place, most of the traditional martial artists came from the quite dumbed down Western schools that did focused mainly on forms and light sparring and did not do much physical conditioning (most even lacked basic light 10 lbs dumbells). The traditional martial artists shown were often extremely out of shape being skinny and frail looking and obese. In addition even the execution their kicks and punches were pretty sloppy looking even by the low standards of UFC at the time.

    So much of the traditional martial arts were beaten within seconds and for the next UFC tournaments, the pattern would repeat until the late 90s and early 2000s when Western traditional martial artists began not only to incorporate other styles but even actually take their strictly traditional martial arts training seriously that they actually hit heavy bags and do live sparring rather than the kata based and points sparring so common in Western TMA schools.

    Now at least some techniques of TKD, Karate, and even Chinese styles have proven effective enough that fighters have made them standard arsenal in MMA.

    However as I said the Human Weapon series shows a lot of the old school traditional martial arts schools back in Asia have some very hardass training. Further personal research I doneshows that while the average practitioners spar with limitations (such as no punches to the head in Kyokushin training), in dojo vs dojo and style vs style bouts all bets are off and high ranking students and senseis pretty much fight no holds barred like MMA, in some cases even removing MMA's limitations and allowing stomping opponents on the ground, etc.

    Hell in Asia's own local MMA organizations and tournaments, they have traditional martial artists fighting quite full contact and realistically to UFC standards in an MMA style match decades before UFC came! While its not strictly MMA, Muhammad Ali had to forfeit a mockup match in a shootboxing rules because his opponent was doing serious damage to his legs with kicks.

    So I am curious why from the 90s up until the 2010s, the traditional martial artists (who did not mix in boxing and other styles) that represented Asian styles in UFC were often mediocre quality or worse? Why didn't we get guy as strong and well trained as Mas Oyama or Korean tae kwon do practitioners who's served in Korean special forces?

    I still think they would lose due to the rules but at least they're a proper representation of traditional martial arts in a so-called "ultimate fighting championship" style tournament rather than the terrible practitioners we got in the West!

    I mean since the Gracies had the means to, why couldn't they invite fighters directly from Japan, Korea, China, etc to get the cream of the crop in the first UFC?

    In addition I notice Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu suffered the worst criticism and for a while back karate did too. At least TKD is now getting more respect thanks to George St-Pierre and other fighters who specialized or started with TKD now having good performances in UFC. Karate already got skilled practitioners who won belts after learning to incorporate boxing and other styles in. However Kung Fu still suffers from this stigma badly.

    How come these three styles were the most popular to attack especially during the 90s (and today Kung Fu still gets so much criticism)?
     
  2. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Who cares? I'm sure you'll find a TV show to answer the question for you
     
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  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Because this.
     
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Look it is basically like this. When people tell you it is the individual and the training not the style.

    They are basically wrong.

    Imagine I find an athletic guy and i enter him in to a triathlon. Swimming, running, bicycle.

    And I take him to an expert who trains him every day. And he gets fit and strong.

    But I train him in horse riding.

    Because he has done the wrong style. He probably won't do as well as he could have had he trained swimming, running or bicycle.

    So just because a fit guy can break a piece of wood. Doesn't make him a UFC fighter.
     
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  5. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Lol I haven't read all this nonsense but I did see you call gsp a taekwondo guy.....lol gsp has never trained taekwondo in his life. He's a black belt in karate not taekwondo
     
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  6. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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  7. dvcochran

    dvcochran 3rd Black Belt

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    It is pretty to find what ever you want to read on the internet. You are making the story fit you agenda. You have written a lot to say a little.
     
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  8. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Doesn't Georges St-Pierre have a background in Kyokushin Karate
     
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  9. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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  10. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    If you really want to research, you should get the book “Is This Legal” by Art Davie. He’s the guy who started the UFC and the book is the detailed story of every step of the way. It’s a fascinating read, especially for Martial Artists and fighters, and readily available on Amazon. Inexpensive, too.

    You really need to start there in order to know what the many questions are that you might want to ask. You’re kind of in the dark here, the book would help you a lot. And it’s a fun read.

    It’s also good to keep in my mind what the UFC was then compared to now. It was tournament then. A very difficult one, too.
     
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  11. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    This is entirely true except that it really is NOT about the style.

    Fighting is a skill in its own right that requires specific training.

    All MA styles can train to fight. There is and never has been any rules that prevent tma schools from improving their fighting skills.

    Whether they do or not is up to the instructor of the school. That is why the style argument is nonsense. The fighting style is about how you fight, not how you train. How you train would be called a training style.

    And yes there are stupid exceptions to this like that no touch knockout school or aikido that never advertised it's self as a fighting style. But if you're art has good basics like punching and kicking and moving then you can train to put them together in a fight effective way.

    So if anyone can train to fight, why did so many tma fighters get their butts kicked?

    Bad training mostly. TMA tend to train to "do" TMA. Breaking boards, kata, powerful strikes, chi sau etc. When they fight they often pick formats designed to highlight their niche skills. Taekwondo is all kicking, wing chun starts from chi sau rolling, shotokan pulls the fist back to the hip etc.

    Doing these skill based exercises without exposure to other methods easily convinces people that they have more ability than they do.

    Add to this the fact that people who want to fight usually go to combat sports, not TMA, especially after all the YouTube videos of TMA losses. That means you have a much smaller pool of fight contenders to choose from.

    Then you have to consider that tma has no direct route into mma. You go to a karate school, you enter karate tournaments. If you dream of fighting ufc, you go to an mma school and get taught to fight a different way.

    More TMA fighters will come, but it will take strong talent and strong personality to persist with tma methods in a non tma training environment.
     
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  12. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    This is what karate looked like back when i first started training. i was recently watching the Glory organization fights on Fight Pass and the few that i watched look horrible. so i YouTubed PKA kick boxing and found this clip. competitive fighting is competitive fighting MMA does not have an exclusive market cornered where only they have the secret.
    i blame it on the 1980's everything was glitz and glam. the hair, the music, most everything sucked. the 1982 corvette only had 200 HP.
    martial arts didnt escape this black hole of a time period. we saw the advent of disco kata with super light weight bo staffs with neon lights twirling like there was a marching band behind the multi color Gi majorette.
    it was a dark period ...the 80's were not kind. while there were no bell bottoms the mullet was taking over the country side. as hair grew the brains of people seems to diminish.

    but before the dark ages there was a time when there were good fighting karate men. as these men aged the younger generation was lost in a mix of shiny objects and Ritalin.
     
  13. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    So we both train using the same methodology however, your style for holding your guard is a bit different than mine and your fundamental stance, weight distribution, & footwork is slightly different to my style. The training therefore is basically wrong but one of our styles make the difference?

    Nah...I don't agree with that.
     
  14. dvcochran

    dvcochran 3rd Black Belt

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    PKA was very popular in Memphis, TN and surrounding areas. I went down and did 6 or 7 weekends of fighting there. It was a great learning experience. I really had to adjust to the spinning backfist being used so often. I never got knocked out but got the s*** beat out of me a few times. I would match it with any kind of up fighting out there.
     
  15. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    'effective' is a spectrum, as is 'ineffective'.

    Let's take Connor and Kabbib. Both very effective, but also very different.
     
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  16. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    There is two different arguments. Saying more than one style works is different to saying all styles work.

    It is ultimately where you 0lace from and function.
     
  17. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Dude does not really know much about capoeira.
     
  18. paitingman

    paitingman Blue Belt

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    I think there have always been legitimately skilled fighters in a lot of styles, but many people today and definitely in the early days of the UFC are/were training with "blinders" on.

    I don't care whether it's boxing or taekwondo. There are those out there training with blinders on and not thinking of what others outside of their approach may do like leg kicks and takedowns. Then again lots of people training boxing and tkd and keep these things in mind as they train or include them in their training.

    Today many more martial artists are exposed to and familiar with all sorts of different techniques and tactics so the blinders are off.

    Those training hard and keeping their minds open to all the possibilities should do well enough no matter the style
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Guys, we see logic terms misused all the time around here. People throw the term Straw Man out all the tome, inappropriately.

    This is a textbook straw man . Made me laugh out loud when I read it. Bravo.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  20. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I think there are lots of blinders still . We see hints of them all the time around here. It's often from the, 'my style might work and you can't say otherwise because you arent an expert in my style" contingent.
     
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