Hapkido instructor claims that jump spinning kicks in TKD came from Hapkido

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Acronym, Dec 24, 2020.

  1. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    There's a first for everything I guess. All historical account of Hapkido that I've read documents that above the waist kicks in Hapkido were lifted from TaeKwonDo (some say Taekkyon as well). Everything else is basically variants of those arts kicks.

    This Hapkido instructor has a different historical reading.

    Beck Martial Arts - Controversial Hapkido Frequently Asked Questions

    "The specialty jumping spinning kicks of Hapkido proved very useful for demonstration and breaking purposes and got adopted into Taekwondo"

    The source I find give 1961 around the time kicks to waist and above got adopted into most, if not all branches of Hapkido.

    It's not entirely out of the question that TaeKwonDo had not yet influenced any martial art at that time but Tang Soo Do surely had, and Tang Soo Do probably had well established practices of spin kicks by 1961.. And Tang Soo Do was the precursor to TaeKwonDo.
     
  2. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    And this colorful chap even ignroes Tang Soo Do!

    What is it with muddy Korean history???

    Strikes and kicks from Taekkyon? Taekkyon was a leg game in Korea, and had no hand techniques.
     
  3. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Well, it you consider just the generally accepted year that each style was created/formalized, TKD is about 20 years older. This and the various differences in the two styles makes this idea on the kick originating from Hap very doubtful for me.

    It is an interesting article however. This guy has taken the time to compare and contrast just about every major style against Hapkido. Something I have never seen before. Is it 100% accurate? Who knows? When researching history, especially in the MA's, it is easy to find what we Want to find and ignore the rest.
    A fickle thing history is.

    I does sound like a pretty school with Arnis in the mix. Similar to what we do.
    But man oh man is that ever one bland website.
     
  4. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    I don't understand how Hapkido is supposed to have influenced any aerial kicking when it' well known that it was not a kicking art originally.

    It's uncontroversial that Ji han jae of Bruce Lee fame added the more elaborate kicks and I'm quite certain he didn't invent them.
     
  5. paitingman

    paitingman Brown Belt

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    I was taught "traditional" Hapkido used mainly low kicks and no high kicks.
     
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  6. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    One branch only, and probably the smallest of the bunch.

    There are also branches that focuses primarily on striking.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2020
  7. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    It should also be noted that the style of Hapkido with no high kicks was not called Hapkido. The art named Hapkido has always had high kicks, the precursor did not.
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    What was it called?
     
  9. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Agree. I am hoping @skribs will chime in on this.
     
  10. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    The founder referred to it as Yawara.

    "Initially, Choi made no attempt to mask the fact that he trained in the Japanese style Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu (often pronounced Dae Dong Ryu Yu Sool or Dae Dong Ryu Yawara in Korean), referring to his style simply as Yawara. The name Hapkido appeared around 1958, when Ji Han Jae, along with some of Choi’s other students, incorporated the kicking techniques of Korean Taekkyon and created a unified syllabus of training material and techniques.

    Historical Lineage of Hapkido
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    So, you're saying that before it was Hapkido, Hapkido didn't include the kicks not originally in Hapkido.
     
  12. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    If they weren't originally in the art, then they obviously wouldn't be included. Just like Bob wouldn't be part of Anna before she was impregnated with him.

    Amazingly, there is still an ultra old-school branch calling itself Hapkido that rejected the modern kicking additions, lacking both side and roundhouse kick.

    I find it ironic that they consider themselves Hapkido traditionalists when the first use of the integrated system Hapkido did in fact have all the bells and whistles, and what they are training is pre Hapkido, not traditional...
     
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  13. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    The kicking influence is clearly Korean going by the hips and overall body mechanics. It's more of a full swing in Hapkido however with less control and more torque. TKDs default spins are more of a half spin.

    There's also as I mentioned in the Hapkido forum running wheel kicks, which is very Kung Fu-ish. TKD does not formally train such kicks. You rarely run into aerial wheel kicks in TaeKwonDo. It's something that tends to be preserved to the demo teams.

    The roundhouse and side kicks are exactly the same in both arts.

    As to the circular principle of Kung Fu and Hapkido, the Karate arts tend to consider straight paths the most efficient trajectories and moved away from emphasis on circularity which is interesting.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You’re very invested in the name, which isn’t the same thing as the system. Systems evolve, and it’s really odd for someone with apparently no experience in an art to be so adamant about what is and is not that system.
     
  15. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Just tra
    I can see there being some national pride behind it, thus deviations of that and viewed disrespect could be a issue. Just Transpose something you care about equally as much. Or in a similar way.

    im getting flashbacks to TKD dating back to ancient Korea and was devoloped to kick cavalrymen off their horses. (that one will never not make be giggle)
     
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  16. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    I quoted it.
     
  17. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    Hapkido is represented int the TaeKwonDo Federation in my country. That's how closely tied they are. It's just like Jiujitsu as a term for both Judo and BJJ. Same fundamentals, different orientation, sometimes different methodology (way of delivering the same or very similar technique).

    The grappling of Hapkido is in TaeKwonDo(how much is dependent on lineage and emphasis of the instructor) and the same goes for the kicks.

    There are some very sloppy instructors who do their own joint manipulation in classes without much tought into it, but that's true of both arts. And like I said, some Hapkido schools focus on striking as much as TKD does
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
  18. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    The comment below (taken from Quora) was very interesting for those thinking there is a clear divide between TaeKwonDo and Hapkido

    David Fish
    ·
    August 22, 2016

    A comment on the video said: I actually trained under this Hapkido guy when this was originally filmed. What I can say with honesty is that he was an instructor but had no real fight experience and he didn't train very hard. When I was learning from him, his focus was almost entirely on strikes with very little grappling/joint lock sparring.

    End of quote. How is small joint manipulation and joint lock (of which there is a plethora in Hapkido) relevant against a wrestling tackle? That wouldn't help him one bit.

    The only thing that would help him would be to learn submission grappling.

    "Grab my wrist bro" will not show up against someone who knows that he is doing. He won't be grabbing the wrist. That's so incredibly stupid, yet the scenario drilled in Hapkido, TaeKwondo, Aikido, etc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
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  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Quoted what?
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That’s a bad misunderstanding of the principles I assume made it to Hapkido from Daito-Ryu.123
     

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