New anti Sine Wave pattern deliveries on Youtube

[Acronym]

Here is a TAGB member discussing the split from ITF and how the ITF changed since that time

Worth a watch for those wanting to learn more about TaeKwonDo

 

[Acronym]

I love the anti Olympic TKD attitude "does not want to be associated with them". Hard core!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Based on a youtube video of the world champion in ITF forms.

Based on your interpretation of a YouTube video.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because you and dirty dog resort to argument from authority. Just because Weiss is a gm and I'm a red belt doesn't automatically make him knowledgeable about boxing.

If you take a concept of boxing and then throw it in the pin the moment you actually strike, you are not using the principles of boxing, you are abusing them.

You're pivoting this to an argument about what is/is not in boxing. I thought you were making an angry point about TKD?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is a delibrate misrepresentation. I trained for 4 years, in the dojang, under GM Yeo Chin Huat.

um..........

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Weight transfer is the difference between an arm punch and a punch with knockout power.

Transfer of momentum to the opponent's head is what does that. It can be done with your weight primarily on your rear leg.

 

[Acronym]

Transfer of momentum to the opponent's head is what does that. It can be done with your weight primarily on your rear leg.

It's nowhere near the power it would have been if it's on your rear leg. You are basically dependent on the actual step-in to generate the force, rather than your entire body driving into the target.

Note that I am not arguing for the boxing punch over Karate, just saying that if you are looking for power, boxing is the way to go.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's nowhere near the power it would have been if it's on your rear leg. You are basically dependent on the actual step-in to generate the force, rather than your entire body driving into the target.

Note that I am not arguing for the boxing punch over Karate, just saying that if you are looking for power, boxing is the way to go.

Boxers can also punch with power without having to move their weight over (or beyond) their front foot. That longer weight transfer is often because of the range needed.

 

[Acronym]

Boxers can also punch with power without having to move their weight over (or beyond) their front foot. That longer weight transfer is often because of the range needed.

They have other shots such as the jab, which is not a power shot in the scoring precisely because it's just an arm and hip twist. It's called a power jab if you push off the back foot for the reason of weight transfer.

The travel path of the reverse punch in Karate is not shorter than the boxing straight right either. It will basically come down to which one you have learned to throw. If you can throw them both, the one you feel more comfortable with.

For my money, in self defense, the karate reverse punch can be effective for a surprise body shot (especially since guard and head movement in karate competitions is questionable). The boxing straight right at full force to the body makes less sense to me, and it is usually not thrown from an orthodox position at full power.

Hooking punches in boxing are more suited for body shots, but those require close range, which you may not want.

 

[Earl Weiss]

B

I referenced the world champion in ITF forms. Weiss did NOT object to the rear foot being put down when punching.

.

Sir, you are confusing 2 different things. The heel is raised and the knee flexed to enable the legs to facilitate power in hand techniques. This helps the arm extend forcefully forward. Placing the heel down as the fist reaches full extension is of little import since the power has already been generated and the purpose of doing this for patterns is to resume the Walking stance which is designed for stability to the front and rear. This is the kinetic llnking principal. The fist has already made contact before the heel is fully set down. National Geographics Fight Science kinetic linking - YouTube

 

[Earl Weiss]

The point of lifting the rear foot in boxing is to facilitate a weight transfer, which is why it doesn't drop when you actually deliver the punch on impact. If you put the rear foot down when you punch, you reverse the attempted transfer back to a planted rear foot position and no weight transfer has been accomplished. All you did was raise and lower your gravity=no weight transfer.

Well, yes and no. Lifting the rear heel in boxing also gives you greater reach. Dropping it back down may or may not be done in order to move the head back. You seem to feel keeping the rear foot on the ball of the foot is essential to power generation. Many a technique can be done in different ways depending on varous factors. Which way is "Better" depends on those factors. Placing the heel back down is to resume the stable walking stance . Will it lessen the reach? Quite possibly. No one should ever think that pattern motions directly translate to "Sparring" , nor should they think Sparring directly translates to Combat.

 

[Acronym]

Sir, you are confusing 2 different things. The heel is raised and the knee flexed to enable the legs to facilitate power in hand techniques. This helps the arm extend forcefully forward. Placing the heel down as the fist reaches full extension is of little import since the power has already been generated and the purpose of doing this for patterns is to resume the Walking stance which is designed for stability to the front and rear. This is the kinetic llnking principal. The fist has already made contact before the heel is fully set down. National Geographics Fight Science kinetic linking - YouTube

I will refer you to one of the encyclopedias:

Tkd Volume 3

"The heel of the rear foot should be raised slightly off the ground at the beginning of the motion and placed firmly on the ground at the moment of impact"

 

[Acronym]

Will it lessen the reach? Quite possibly. No one should ever think that pattern motions directly translate to "Sparring" , nor should they think Sparring directly translates to Combat.

The burning point isn't the reach, it's that the weight is being transferred back when it's supposed to transfer forward. But of course that's just the tip of the iceberg. The bigger issue is that there is no forward lean so the weight isn't traveling anywhere, it's just going up and down.

I might also add that in boxing, the heal is raised and stays raised, regardless if you are shadow boxing or sparring. Forms relate to sparring in boxing, instead of being counter to them

 

[dvcochran]

No one should ever think that pattern motions directly translate to "Sparring" , nor should they think Sparring directly translates to Combat.

Sir, would you please elaborate on this statement? I would like to hear your follow up before I frame any response.

 

[Acronym]

There's a saying in Chinese, be careful what you wish for.

I asked for a hip twist and i got it in spades .

This delivery is so tensed that I shiver.

 

[Acronym]

No one should ever think that pattern motions directly translate to "Sparring" , .

There's no reson why they shouldn't, and the encyclopedias parameters for punching are based the mechanics of the forms. So a fair assumption is that Choi considered the form mechanics to override the sparring mechanics when applied for combat/self defence

 

[Earl Weiss]

No one should ever think that pattern motions directly translate to "Sparring" , nor should they think Sparring directly translates to Combat.

Sir, would you please elaborate on this statement? I would like to hear your follow up before I frame any response.

Naturally I cannot speak to every TMA system. So I will address how it is in the Chang Hon system. And my albeit limited observation of other pattern performances. There is an aesthetic component to patterns. None of that aesthetic element is relevant to Sparring or combat. Certainly patterns can develop traits that are applicable to Sparring or combat just as drills like hitting a peed bag or Jumping rope can help develop boxing skills. Sparring has rules. Most sparring has a goal of scoring points and possibly knocking out or submitting an opponent. Points are irrelevant in combat. Goals are to survive or decimate the adversary. While there is certainly an overlap the optimal training concentrates on the objective. I would not expect a Pro MMA athlete to spend a lot of time doing patterns.

 

[Earl Weiss]

There's no reson why they shouldn't, and the encyclopedias parameters for punching are based the mechanics of the forms. So a fair assumption is that Choi considered the form mechanics to override the sparring mechanics when applied for combat/self defence

Sir, your assumption is mistaken . I will have to locate it in the text and get back to you but there is a place where he addresses "Standard" methods for performing techniques and adaptation for situations. It is difficult to comprehend that you would think he would really consider punching with pulling the opposite hand to the to be the overriding standard for combat.

 

[Acronym]

Sir, your assumption is mistaken .It is difficult to comprehend that you would think he would really consider punching with pulling the opposite hand to the to be the overriding standard for combat.

So you don't know the applications of withdrawing with the other hand?

Why is it difficult to comprehend that I have that interpretation, when the principles for punching outlined are Sine Wave proper mechanics.

 

[Acronym]

Naturally I cannot speak to every TMA system. So I will address how it is in the Chang Hon system. And my albeit limited observation of other pattern performances. There is an aesthetic component to patterns. None of that aesthetic element is relevant to Sparring or combat. Certainly patterns can develop traits that are applicable to Sparring or combat just as drills like hitting a peed bag or Jumping rope can help develop boxing skills. Sparring has rules. Most sparring has a goal of scoring points and possibly knocking out or submitting an opponent. Points are irrelevant in combat. Goals are to survive or decimate the adversary. While there is certainly an overlap the optimal training concentrates on the objective. I would not expect a Pro MMA athlete to spend a lot of time doing patterns.

Whenever I've seen black belt do breaking with SW, they place the heel down when striking as well. It's clearly done more harm than good, and I'm convinced this is based on a misconception from the person responsible for it, rather than an easthetical decision.