You need to ask "what if" like ras...or you suck

[ATACX GYM]

http://martialtalkmagazine.com/you-need-to-ask-what-if-like-ras-or-you-suck-preface-part-a/



What…did you think I’d let guys like Doc–however much I may respect them as martial artists and their accomplishments–call me out and NOT respond? Please. This is THE ATACX GYM here. Don’t make me go A MAN CALLED HAWK on you and call you a damn fool.

This article is the preface to a somewhat scathing and brutal point by point direct rebuttal to some of the positions taken by some of our esteemed Kenpo Elders like Doc and whoever agrees with the specific positions that I’m rebutting…and in doing so I hope to make the position of my ATACX GYM clear. If you’re sensitive? You don’t want to read this article, because if you know me? You already know I’m bringing the flame with every piece I write and this piece is no exception to the rule. If you don’t know me? Read on, hopefully you’ll like what I have to say.
Lemme make this clear: the core and crux of THE ATACX GYM is Functional Versatility. To my knowledge, we are the only Kenpo Gym that developes our sequences with every consideration of h2h combat in mind from jumpstreet. We believe that the complete enchilada of self-defense…360 degrees of technique application from any stance or position, ranging from firearms to ground grappling to Evasion and Escape to Rescue to Multifights Armed or Unarmed to First Aid etc etc and any combination thereof…is what we’re supposed to learn. All of our techs and sequences…every single one…reflects this philosophy. We also have crafted a very unusual training paradigm reflective of our specific philosophy. We are extremely results oriented…so much so that we guarantee specific results every 8 hours of training time with us. I know of no other Gym that makes such specific guarantees.
Here are the top issues that I have with people who champion the sucktastic dysfunctional more popular “idea not Ideal” Phase techs:
1. They don’t train in a Functional/Alive fashion so 99% of the time their lack of Alive/Functional training virtually guarantees that they will fail to defend themselves when put to the test. How many students are paying for the priviledge of NOT being able to defend themselves?
This is ALIVE training defined by Matt Thornton. I like much of what he has to say, but he didn’t originate his position [ which he'd be the first to acknowledge ]


2. Many Kenpoists will denigrate sports oriented martial arts with claims that “we train for the street, not sport”. No, they don’t. If these so-called street oriented self-defense centered Kenpoists did as they claimed? They’d be working on far more things than their sports combat brethren and they’d loooong be converts of Functional/Alive Training. There would be zero argument about universal performance in the most common ranges of h2h SD befalling citizens, LEO and HRSP types [ which my research leads me to define as: Projectile Weapon Range, Non-projectile Weapon Range, Stand Up, Clinch, Seated, Kneeling [ either and both knees ] Ground, Prone, Escape, Evasion, Rescue, Rescue and Escape/Evade, Multifight Armed and Unarmed, Transitions to and thru all of the above, Breakfalls, Rolls, First Aid and CPR ] and the absolute mandate to have universally applicable and universally trained sequences comprised of universally applicable and universally trained techs.
3. Most Kenpoists have been hugely duped brainwashed and mindwiped. They seek to cleave to a dysfunctional model of their IP training and identify this craptastic expression as the standard to live up to. Even if Doc Chapel hadn’t completely nuked that crap by reciting the true history of the IP? Simply SPARRING and training functionally with [ whatever ] tech will ensure that it DOES NOT look like its dysfunctional predecessor…because it works.
4. Now. Like I frequently say and I’m repeating again: You don’t have to wholesale adopt my specific comprehensive expression of doing any technique, but WHATEVER technique or sequence you train? It needs to work in EVERY PRIMARY ARMED OR UNARMED, MULTIFIGHT, RESCUE, EVADE/ESCAPE etc etc scenario. If you do this? Then whatever expression you come up with will be universally functional. You will discover that it’s alot more fun, alot more work, alot more rewarding in every sense, and that there IS a single expression of say…GRASP OF DEATH…that allows you to deal with each and every one of the primary self-defense considerations. This single expression should be your BASE technique; the technique that you personally practice and the one that you teach your students. Whatever refinements that you hit upon should start from your new, highly functional GRASP OF DEATH and NOT from the dysfunctional crap that passes as the Ideal Phase Grasp of Death.

You and I must train Functionally. If you don’t? You’re deceiving yourself, your students, the general public, and are likely contributing significantly to the likelihood of someone using your craptastic techs in a actual scrap ends up getting hurt. That’s on you but it reflects poorly on all of us who are responsible functional martial art instructors.
So….WHAT IF YOU KNOW ABOUT WEAPONS, GRAPPLERS, MULTIFIGHTS, LEG KICKS, ETC. BUT YOU CHOOSE NOT TO TRAIN YOUR STUDENTS FOR THESE AND OTHER BASIC REALITIES FROM DAY ONE?
ANSWER: YOU SUCK.
That’s why…YOU NEED TO ASK WHAT IF LIKE RAS...[ for the rest, click: http://martialtalkmagazine.com/you-need-to-ask-what-if-like-ras-or-you-suck-preface-part-a/ ]

 

[Carol]

Well now...THAT is an article, Ras!

Who's the cat that won't cop out, when there's danger all about...

 

[ATACX GYM]

well now...that is an article, ras!

Who's the cat that won't cop out, when there's danger all about...

sho you right!!

 

[Tames D]

Who, or what is ras? Excuse my ignorance.

 

[Cyriacus]

Who, or what is ras? Excuse my ignorance.

The poster. Ras is His name.

 

[oaktree]

Hi I do not train in Kenpo but from the impression in your article it seems to be "why you are better than everyone else and how everyone else is wrong but you.
Your article sounds more like an advertising ad and an attack on other Kenpoist who disagree with your methodology. To think that this is a Martial Talk magazine article is distasteful.

 

[LawDog]

I stepped in late here and at the moment I am evaluating what has really has been said here and why. But for the record, not all or even most Kenpo schools are sports focused. What is being said here is what most Kenpo "old schools" have been doing for decades. Many of us know well the streets and how to train for it. Some of todays schools, traditional, modern or mixed arts learn street techniques by seminars or by Master DVD.
Some of todays school head Instructors worked the street in one form or the other. It is easy to figure out who knows or does not really know, just pair them up against someone who does know and have a verbal sparring match.
Posting on a forum really doesn't prove much. Don't hit the style or a school just go after the expert who really isn't.

 

[Chris Parker1]

For those that have the patience, what I feel is a big part of the reason for Ras (again!!) saying that he's the only one who does things right can be found in this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?100693-Sword-and-hammer-pt-1-and-2.

Ras is wrong. Repeatedly. He misses what he's being corrected on. Repeatedly. He used Doc and others so support his ideas and defences, until at Kempotalk Doc in particular turned around and pointed out that Ras was wrong. Repeatedly. The entire article Ras has written also misses the point of what he was being corrected on. Repeatedly.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that Ras should just be ignored. Repeatedly.

But Bob? Take his self-aggrandizing, ego-centric, mis-appropriated sense of superiority fueled "article" and flush it. As Oaktree says, it's just distasteful having it as a legitimate article on the magazine.

 

[Carol]

I stepped in late here and at the moment I am evaluating what has really has been said here and why. But for the record, not all or even most Kenpo schools are sports focused. What is being said here is what most Kenpo "old schools" have been doing for decades. Many of us know well the streets and how to train for it. Some of todays schools, traditional, modern or mixed arts learn street techniques by seminars or by Master DVD.
Some of todays school head Instructors worked the street in one form or the other. It is easy to figure out who knows or does not really know, just pair them up against someone who does know and have a verbal sparring match.
Posting on a forum really doesn't prove much. Don't hit the style or a school just go after the expert who really isn't.

You sir have been sorely missed!! Hope all is well :asian:

 

[ATACX GYM]

Hi I do not train in Kenpo but from the impression in your article it seems to be "why you are better than everyone else and how everyone else is wrong but you.
Your article sounds more like an advertising ad and an attack on other Kenpoist who disagree with your methodology. To think that this is a Martial Talk magazine article is distasteful.

I suggest that you read the article again. My article was formulated as a response from a serious but essentially non-personal challenge by one of the ranking Kenpo Elders in the world, the highly esteemed Doc Chapel. I have never at any time said that everyone is wrong but me. Look at the article. I specifically refute that allegation.

It is not an advertising ad or an attack on other Kenposits who disagree with my methodology. However, it IS filled with blunt talk that is long overdue. Loooonnnng overdue. I warned the general public about the bluntness of my posts on this matter and I warned the general public that if you're of the more sensitive persuasion? My posts on this matter aren't for you. I then proceeded to provide empirical--not just anecdotal or my personal opinion, EMPIRICAL--data to support much of my position and opinions.

At no time--ever ever ever--did I say everyone else is wrong but me. I railed against TRAINING METHODS. I rail against DYSFUNCTION. And I rail against the sheep-like mentality that allows such drivel to exist...at the expense of Kenpo, TMA as a whole, and also at the expense of far too many of us from whatever martial art that doesn't use functional,universal performance as our litmus test for sufficient efficacy. Nowhere--NOWHERE, SIR--do I say anything like what you claim.

Please produce the quotes that cause you problems, and I'll be happy to point out that your concerns are not only NOT borne out by the quotes but solidly and wholeheartedly reaffirm the truth that I have neeever eeeever made nor intimated the claim that everyone else is wrong but me.

 

[LawDog]

Greetings Carol,
when you rehab your house you know how your personel life can get.

 

[ATACX GYM]

For those that have the patience, what I feel is a big part of the reason for Ras (again!!) saying that he's the only one who does things right can be found in this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?100693-Sword-and-hammer-pt-1-and-2.

Ras is wrong. Repeatedly. He misses what he's being corrected on. Repeatedly. He used Doc and others so support his ideas and defences, until at Kempotalk Doc in particular turned around and pointed out that Ras was wrong. Repeatedly. The entire article Ras has written also misses the point of what he was being corrected on. Repeatedly.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that Ras should just be ignored. Repeatedly.

But Bob? Take his self-aggrandizing, ego-centric, mis-appropriated sense of superiority fueled "article" and flush it. As Oaktree says, it's just distasteful having it as a legitimate article on the magazine.

Actually--as Chris the non-Kenpo man's link to my SWORD AND HAMMER PT. 1 AND 2 thread will resoundingly prove--there is not a single atom of his statements which at any time bear even the slightest factual similarity to the real world. His opinion is essentially comprised of utter contrariness...for the sake of being contrary. There is no--and never has been nor will there ever be--even the most inifinitesimal facts to support his negative opinions about me.

I invite him and any and all critics to prove--PROVE--otherwise. Let us move beyond cogent posts to empirical data.

I have provided video evidence to buttress my position with real world data. I have provided historical evidence drawn from the pioneer of Kenpo himself to buttress my position. I disagree with several of our most decorated and respected Elders on various positions of import, but they all boil down to a simple, single concept:

Whatever technique that you learn? It must be universally functional. THE SAME TECHNIQUE OR SEQUENCE must operate equally well whether you're armed or not, in multifights or not, ground grappling or ground fighting or not, regardless of stance or position, in a 360 degree circle, whether you're escaping/evading or not, rescuing someone or not,address every concern in The Web of Knowledge, address transitioning to and through any or all of the above or not, and address any combination of any or all of the above. It's...the essence of common sense.

Not all or even most martial artists do so. Not all or even most martial artists are MANDATED to do so if they choose to do otherwise. But whatever concern they choose not to address and/or develope combat proficiency in? THAT'S THE CONCERN THAT THEY'RE VULNERABLE TO. You don't address and get proficient in offensive and defensive leg kicks/blocks? Well...guess who's getting kicked in the leg? You don't address ground submissions? Well...guess who's getting tapped snapped or napped? You don't address multifights? Well...guess who's gettin stomped in a multifight? Etc etc.

Btw Chris, I'm still waiting upon that video that you never produced to prove your point...which of course is never going to come because it's like all your other evidence: spurious and non-existent.

 

[Carol]

Greetings Carol,
when you rehab your house you know how your personel life can get.

Ohhhh yes....I became a homeowner (condo owner) myself up in the 603 since we last chatted. I can relate

 

[ATACX GYM]

Greetings Carol,
when you rehab your house you know how your personel life can get.

I actually recall this gentleman...LawDog...from YOUTUBE. I hope that he's able to see that my blunt talk is simply that: accurate, not self-aggrandizing at all, direct, unflinching. It is a response borne from Doc's MT article challenge to me...WHAT IF RAS STOPPED ASKING WHAT IF?...and that article was borne from the multipage threads that arose on both KenpoTalk.com AAAAND here on MartialTalk.com due to my incessant questioning about the origins of The Ideal Phase...and the dysfunctionality of it.

How did it come about? Who authored each and every Ideal Phase? How did we get a UNIVERSAL Ideal Phase when Mr. Parker very specifically not only didn't want such a thing but his definition of The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique Process specifically prevents such a thing from occurring because each head of each Kenpo school and group were to fashion their OWN expression of Alternating Maces or Sword and Hammer or whatever?

Well, Doc answered. I agreed with everything except the stricture placed upon keeping one's response within a specific narrow band. Doc said essentially that alll Sword and Hammer sequences had room for individuality and were mandated to do so, but they all in the end had to bear a significant physical resemblance to this:

[video=youtube_share;oJbyIBmhDN0]http://youtu.be/oJbyIBmhDN0[/video]

My response was...what is significant about that up there^^? What's shown up above should be a White Belt drill that we learned to do when we learned how to throw handswords to the cardinal directions and any point in a 360 degree circle around us, repeat the drill with the hammerfist, then repeat with combinations of all the techniques we learned in White Belt [ in my Gym, this is BELOW WHITE BELT...it's a Pre-White Belt Level A technique. The lowest rank in my Gym ].

The difference when I teach my students our iteration of Sword and Hammer is that it presupposes a surprise attack that lands for the most part...and you must respond while you're dazed, in a position of disadvantage, and while being belabored with blows from your opponent.

We recognize right off top that your opponent will not be helpfully standing still and posing for you, and the BG won't be sitting there allowing you to hit him. IN THE REAL WORLD, THE ATTACK THAT THE SWORD AND HAMMER IS SUPPOSED TO DEFEAT WILL BE SOMETHING LIKE THIS ATTACK:

[video=youtube_share;A36Bw5I3-g0]http://youtu.be/A36Bw5I3-g0[/video]

Will the most common training expression of THE SWORD AND HAMMER deal with that attack? NOPE. The TRAINING PARADIGM SUCKS. Kenpo doesn't suck. The Sword and Hammer doesn't suck. BUT THE TRAINING PARADIGM FOR THE MOST COMMON EXPRESSION OF THE SWORD AND HAMMER SUCKS. Do you understand and grasp the difference I'm making here? I have confidence that most of you do.

Now, look at the above attack, and consider that most flank attacks aren't even preceded by a grab [ essentially a Hockey Punch from the flanks ]. Guys just catch you nappin and FIRE A SUCKER PUNCH ON YOU. Like so:

[video=youtube_share;LFnIESr658k]http://youtu.be/LFnIESr658k[/video]

Do you train your Sword and Hammer...or ANY technique...to deal with that? Take a look-see at the most common Sword and Hammer and honestly ask yourself if you've trained for the more common reality that you'll be called upon to use it in. The truth is? The overwhelming majority of us...90%+ I'd guesstimate--have NOT trained our Sword and Hammer for this and have not changed our Sword and Hammer's expression to deal with this reality.

Now take the above and notice...these attacks can occur face to face, from the flanks, from the rear or any point in a 360 degree circle around you. Is your Sword and Hammer taught from DAY ONE to deal with this reality? Has your sensei sifu Coach whatever prepped you for this by changing the Sword and Hammer training methodology so that it's functional and it really works? No? Most haven't.

But I have.

[video=youtube_share;AuvuhW1u2WE]http://youtu.be/AuvuhW1u2WE[/video]

How many Kenpo or Kempo instructors have considered making throws, takedowns, sweeps, displacements, unbalances, submission/compliance locks etc. an integral part of every single sequence they
teach and teach the whole expression seamlessly meshed with the grappling arsenal at your belt rank? Answer: Nowhere near enough have done so.

But I have.


[video=youtube_share;R-mmdyIHkjs]http://youtu.be/R-mmdyIHkjs[/video]


What happens if you're KNOCKED DOWN by the surprise attack and you have to deal with a BG who's trying to stomp you out, punch you, knife you, or any combo of the above?

[video=youtube_share;8XsykPOhBRI]http://youtu.be/8XsykPOhBRI[/video]

Is it a common sight in Kenpo for your Sword and Hammer or whatever sequence you prefer to be trained for this reality? No?

It is for me and my students. In THE ATACX GYM, you are taught to use THE EXACT SAME TECHNIQUES ON THE GROUND AS YOU DO ON YOUR FEET.

[video=youtube_share;R-mmdyIHkjs]http://youtu.be/R-mmdyIHkjs[/video]

But wait...what if he sucker punches you, switches sides and keeps punching you or goes for a chokehold? Well, we already showed you that at THE ATACX GYM we train our techs to strike in a circle and the cardinal directions [ showing the part of our hybrid lineage that's BKF-Parker-Tracy ]...but we also realize that students must be equipped with techniques that deal with all the primary h2h categories and attacks, so we train our SWORD AND HAMMER vs these kinds of situations too:

So clearly I think Kenpo works. Clearly I think the techniques are valid. IT'S THE TRAINING PARADIGM AND ATTENDING MINDSET THAT IS DYSFUNCTIONAL AND PROBLEMATIC. The question isn't:"Why does THE ATACX GYM and a very veeerrry select few Kenpo schools even remotely address the kind of self-defense reality that I'm likely to encounter?" Nope. The question is:" WHY IN DA HELL DO THE OTHER 99% OF KENPO SCHOOLS NOT COVER THESE REALITIES?"

That's the question. And it's not self-aggrandizing, it's not ego-centric. It's the straight up real world reality. It's blunt talk that we need.

It's why you need to ask "What If" like Ras does...or you suck.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ras, I think there's a whole lot of people talking past each other here. You believe in your methods and that causes you to critique and criticize what you perceive others are doing. At the same time, other people believe in their methods, and they likewise critique and criticize what they see other people doing. Including what they see you doing.

People are beholden to their methods, for better and for worse. If they (and you) believe in what they do, have seen the "proof in the pudding", they (and you) are not going to be particularly receptive to someone telling them they are making some mistakes and might want to do it differently. That's actually OK, there's nothing wrong with that.

I happen to agree with you in that I feel a whole lot of martial arts are being practiced poorly, taught by a whole lot of people who don't understand very well what they are doing and should simply not be teaching. But there are also some very capable people out there, even those whose methods are fundamentally different from my own. I can't really tell them they need to change because apparently they've got something that works well for them.

Your posts are very wordy and honestly it makes them difficult to read. Not because I am unable to handle a difficult read, but because it comes off as garbled and artificially intellectualized in a way that the topic doesn't seem (to me, at least) to merit. You also post a lot of video clips to support your positions, and refer to them as proof of your points. I've seen some of your clips but not a lot of them. Video is blocked for me at work, and that is where I am most of the time when I'm on the forums (the cat's out of the bag there...). I rarely have the time or desire to go back at home to look at video. However, the videos that I have seen have not, in my mind, been proof of anything. At all. They show you working on things, they illustrate an example of something that you do, but they are in no way, shape, or form, "proof" of anything.

You've initiated a number of threads that become exceptionally wordy and long and don't settle anything, they become circular arguments that don't end and don't resolve anything and get rehashed over and over in the various threads. I don't really see the point of it all.

You have your ways that you believe in, other people have theirs, and it doesn't really matter if they don't meet.

For myself, as an ex-kenpo guy, I don't buy any of it. For me, I realized the basic approach to the curriculum just isn't a good match, doesn't work for me. So I do something else altogether. That's just another example of two people (you and I) who both believe in what they do, who will never agree on the best approach to teaching and training, but who both get excellent results from what they do.

it ain't a crusade out there. you don't need to convince or convert anyone.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Ras, I think there's a whole lot of people talking past each other here. You believe in your methods and that causes you to critique and criticize what you perceive others are doing. At the same time, other people believe in their methods, and they likewise critique and criticize what they see other people doing. Including what they see you doing.

People are beholden to their methods, for better and for worse. If they (and you) believe in what they do, have seen the "proof in the pudding", they (and you) are not going to be particularly receptive to someone telling them they are making some mistakes and might want to do it differently. That's actually OK, there's nothing wrong with that.

I happen to agree with you in that I feel a whole lot of martial arts are being practiced poorly, taught by a whole lot of people who don't understand very well what they are doing and should simply not be teaching. .

Whassup FC!! You did see the parts where I repeatedly say that if [ whatever others are doing ] works in these ranges for them? Hey, not a problem. I'm not addressing them. I've also repeatedly stated that if [ whatever others are doing ] is all they want to do? That's ALSO cool with me. But if they're not training for various considerations in The Web of Knowledge? Well...

a) They'll be vulnerable to attacks that those considerations cover

b) That's proof of a insufficiently comprehensive training paradigm.


However, it IS somewhat of a crusade. People DO need convincing...not so much CONVERSION, but CONVINCING. Convincing of what? Convincing that oftentimes we need superior training paradigms to efficiently cover more practical, more comprehensive martial arts training. Basically? Take your [ whatever martial art ] any direction you want to go with it. Just make sure it works in the primary armed, h2h, ground and multifight scenarios. That is NOT being done and hasn't been done in TMA for far too long.

That's our fault. Those of us who know better and don't do it enough. Don't show it enough. Don't prove it enough.

Your posts are very wordy and honestly it makes them difficult to read. Not because I am unable to handle a difficult read, but because it comes off as garbled and artificially intellectualized in a way that the topic doesn't seem (to me, at least) to merit. .

I usually don't answer the above criticism because usually the people making them are:

a. Being Contrary for the sake of being contrary

b. Just looking to insult me

c. Brain Dead


But I know that you're not like that, Michael, so I'll answer this comment [ yet AGAIN ]:

To me and to quite a few who contact me on a weekly basis [ dozens and more ], my posts aren't overly wordy nor are they difficult to comprehend. They're pretty straightforward. The part that flips most people is that I've challenged many of their positions and/or beliefs in almost every sentence, and they're still attempting to digest one challenge or question when I hit them with a dozen more. To compound the matter, they oftentimes completely misunderstand or mischaracterize what I'm saying. They'll conflate, for instance, my utter disgust with and disdain for dysfunctional training with me saying that they and/or their martial art sucks. I have neeeeever said such a thing, and have repeatedly and in no uncertain terms repudiated even the notion of such a thing.

Even when I disagree with Chris Parker, I have never dissed his personal martial art. And I never will.

This whole conversation [ from my perspective ] revolves around training paradigms, their effectiveness or lack thereof, and the mindsets that they spawn. Even Functionality has a continuum. I am Functional, but I can be MORE Functional...so I'm open to ideas drills suggestions and criticism along those lines. I have adopted the verbiage and corrections offered by others like Doc, Professor Durgan, and others [ even you, Michael ] when I agreed with the criticisms or even disagreed but found merit in the suggestion anyway.

It's worth noting that NONE of my critics have reciprocated.

With that in mind...who is truly the person with the more open mind? Who is truly the person who is less ego-stricken?

Something to ponder.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Ohhhh yes....I became a homeowner (condo owner) myself up in the 603 since we last chatted. I can relate

Yaaaayyy homeowners!

 

[Flying Crane]

Whassup FC!! You did see the parts where I repeatedly say that if [ whatever others are doing ] works in these ranges for them? Hey, not a problem. I'm not addressing them. I've also repeatedly stated that if [ whatever others are doing ] is all they want to do? That's ALSO cool with me.

who do you think, out there, honestly believes that, "what I am doing is flawed, but I'll just keep doing it and pretend otherwise"? I'd say just about nobody fits that description. So if you believe what you stated above, then you are talking to nobody.

Whether or not something is flawed is a matter of perception. Some people's perception may be sharper than others, but try and convince everyone that their perception isn't as accurate as yours, and you'll get a lot of pushback and resistance. It just becomes this circular argument over and over and over and over and over and over...... we are talking about human nature. From my perspective, kenpo is fundamentally flawed as a system and as a curriculum. But whenever I made such a suggestion and said, hey maybe there are some things the kenpo community is confused on...well I got some serious hostility in response. OK, I get it, my ballgame isn't the same ballgame they are playing and that's cool. What works for me may not work for them and vice-versa. That's the same thing you are doing. Play your ballgame, they will play theirs, and the people who are looking for it will decide which ballgame they want to play. There's nothing wrong with discussion and discourse, but I think you are deluding yourself over this need to convince and convert. People ARE convinced, even if they aren't convinced by you.

But if they're not training for various considerations in The Web of Knowledge? Well...

a) They'll be vulnerable to attacks that those considerations cover

b) That's proof of a insufficiently comprehensive training paradigm.

I came up in the Tracy kenpo lineage and we didn't have the web of knowledge. I have read Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights series, so I have a very shallow familiarity with what it is, but not what it really contains. Given that caveate, I don't see any use in the Web of Knowledge, and see zero "proof" of anything with it, one way or the other. It's just a way of organizing some information, and I don't see it as being a useful tool.

However, it IS somewhat of a crusade. People DO need convincing...not so much CONVERSION, but CONVINCING. Convincing of what? Convincing that oftentimes we need superior training paradigms to efficiently cover more practical, more comprehensive martial arts training. Basically? Take your [ whatever martial art ] any direction you want to go with it. Just make sure it works in the primary armed, h2h, ground and multifight scenarios. That is NOT being done and hasn't been done in TMA for far too long.

who's definition of superior? Yours? Again, who out there keeps training in something that they are convinced is inferior? Everyone's got their perception of what is superior, what's the best way to go about it. Everyone is already convinced, but not by you. They are convinced by what they already do, or they would not do it. Why would they then be convinced by you? I personally think the superior way to do it includes dumping the whole approach that kenpo takes in its curriculum and doing things very differently. But will I ever convince you or Luckkboxer or Doc of that? Hell no. You are pushing your notions of what is superior, and others aren't buying it. And that will NEVER happen over an internet forum. That's all there is to it. Again, discussion and discourse is completely appropriate, but have some realistic expectations of what you might accomplish.

As far as what is being or not being done in TMAs, I think you don't know what is being done. And do you include kenpo as a TMA in that assessment? All kenpo branches and types and flavors? I train a very traditional Chinese martial art and I have full faith in the system. My skills with it may have room for improvement, but the system and the method make 110% good sense to me, I believe in it whole-heartedly. But our approach to training and what we do with our material is very different from what I see you discussing and doing in your videos. I am sure that if you looked at how we train, you would find faults or deficiencies in it. I don't care, I'm not interested in convincing you or anyone else. But I have the utmost confidence in our method and that's all that matters to me. I don't care what the rest of the world might think about it.

No, there is no crusade.

That's our fault. Those of us who know better and don't do it enough. Don't show it enough. Don't prove it enough.

I'd say there are a lot more of "us" doing it than maybe you think. But to whom do we need to show it and prove it? I don't care what the world thinks of what I do, I'd rather keep it in my back pocket and let you or anyone else think it's no good. That gives me an edge.

Those of us who know "better"? How do you define that? I think I know better, and that caused me to leave kenpo altogether, 100%. You'll never agree with my decision, but should I be trying to convince you that I know better and you should be listening to me?

the circular arguments just continue and there is no resolution. Just people talking past each other.

 

[ATACX GYM]

who do you think, out there, honestly believes that, "what I am doing is flawed, but I'll just keep doing it and pretend otherwise"? I'd say just about nobody fits that description. So if you believe what you stated above, then you are talking to nobody.

Whether or not something is flawed is a matter of perception. Some people's perception may be sharper than others, but try and convince everyone that their perception isn't as accurate as yours, and you'll get a lot of pushback and resistance. It just becomes this circular argument over and over and over and over and over and over...... we are talking about human nature. From my perspective, kenpo is fundamentally flawed as a system and as a curriculum. But whenever I made such a suggestion and said, hey maybe there are some things the kenpo community is confused on...well I got some serious hostility in response. OK, I get it, my ballgame isn't the same ballgame they are playing and that's cool. What works for me may not work for them and vice-versa. That's the same thing you are doing. Play your ballgame, they will play theirs, and the people who are looking for it will decide which ballgame they want to play. There's nothing wrong with discussion and discourse, but I think you are deluding yourself over this need to convince and convert. People ARE convinced, even if they aren't convinced by you.



I came up in the Tracy kenpo lineage and we didn't have the web of knowledge. I have read Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights series, so I have a very shallow familiarity with what it is, but not what it really contains. Given that caveate, I don't see any use in the Web of Knowledge, and see zero "proof" of anything with it, one way or the other. It's just a way of organizing some information, and I don't see it as being a useful tool.



who's definition of superior? Yours? Again, who out there keeps training in something that they are convinced is inferior? Everyone's got their perception of what is superior, what's the best way to go about it. Everyone is already convinced, but not by you. They are convinced by what they already do, or they would not do it. Why would they then be convinced by you? I personally think the superior way to do it includes dumping the whole approach that kenpo takes in its curriculum and doing things very differently. But will I ever convince you or Luckkboxer or Doc of that? Hell no. You are pushing your notions of what is superior, and others aren't buying it. And that will NEVER happen over an internet forum. That's all there is to it. Again, discussion and discourse is completely appropriate, but have some realistic expectations of what you might accomplish.

As far as what is being or not being done in TMAs, I think you don't know what is being done. And do you include kenpo as a TMA in that assessment? All kenpo branches and types and flavors? I train a very traditional Chinese martial art and I have full faith in the system. My skills with it may have room for improvement, but the system and the method make 110% good sense to me, I believe in it whole-heartedly. But our approach to training and what we do with our material is very different from what I see you discussing and doing in your videos. I am sure that if you looked at how we train, you would find faults or deficiencies in it. I don't care, I'm not interested in convincing you or anyone else. But I have the utmost confidence in our method and that's all that matters to me. I don't care what the rest of the world might think about it.

No, there is no crusade.



I'd say there are a lot more of "us" doing it than maybe you think. But to whom do we need to show it and prove it? I don't care what the world thinks of what I do, I'd rather keep it in my back pocket and let you or anyone else think it's no good. That gives me an edge.

Those of us who know "better"? How do you define that? I think I know better, and that caused me to leave kenpo altogether, 100%. You'll never agree with my decision, but should I be trying to convince you that I know better and you should be listening to me?

the circular arguments just continue and there is no resolution. Just people talking past each other.

Mike...I don't know anyone who looks at their approach as "flawed". However, if you ask any of my Taekwondoin brethren if they have a substantial submission grappling arsenal standing and on the ground? The honest answer is NO. Does that leave them vulnerable to being subbed or facing a good wrestler who can gnp them? YES. Is there a way to train their TKD--without having to sacrifice their distinct TKD flavor and identity--to deal with competent submissions takedowns and gnp? YES. Is this routinely done? The honest answer is NO.

How do I know? Because I'm a 5th dan in TKD and when I made these suggestions? Many TKD guys went nuts...until I pointed out that Master Hee Il Cho has done the very thing I was talking about...although I started converting mine well before 1994, as I was learning TKD and HKD nearly hand in hand with each other.

When I make comments about this or that art in TMA? They're GENERAL comments. There is NO WAY I'd know exactly what every single martial artist is doing, and I'm not interested in that. If I gave you the impression otherwise? I don't know how but I apologize for that. What I CAN say though--with certainty--refers to the GENERAL METHOD OF PRACTICE. The GENERAL training paradigm.

I'm a Judo black belt.Generally speaking? Judoka don't do jumpkicks or triple kicks, even in our self defense atemi-waza [ which I have learned ].

I'm a Kenpo 5th dan and a Hung Gar black sash. In general, you won't find Kenpoists or Kempoists--American, Chinese, Japanese, whatever---pulling off flying triangles or working the guard or pulling off The Flying Squirrel or The Spladle. In fact? Throws pins locks chokes and holds are not what these arts are generally known for...although they DO IN FACT possess these techs. Their training emphasis, IN GENERAL, is elsewhere...which gives them a largely "stand up striking" identity. Which means that they too are vulnerable to what they train LESS of or DON'T TRAIN.

Do the practitioners of ANY of these arts feel that their art is flawed? NO. Their art is NOT flawed. They have good reason to feel the way that they do. Now, can anyone from any of those arts improve drastically by employing a training paradigm that improves their entire martial arsenal [ inclusive of tactics and healing ] in every category and range of self defense? YES.

A training paradigm that improves martial performance, knowledge, etc. is a SUPERIOR training paradigm.

Therefore...Taekwondoin who reach into their art and realize that they have throws, locks etc. and proceed to practice throws locks takedowns ground strikes weapons and defenses against same have a TRAINING PARADIGM SUPERIOR to those who DON'T do so...even though all TKD practitioners in theory have THE SAME ARSENAL.

Chinese Kempoists who develope superior athleticism and comprehensive grappling and subgrappling have a superior TRAINING PARADIGM to those who don't...even though all Chinese Kempoists in theory have the same arsenal.

American Kenpoists who train their techniques and self-defense sequences to perform in every range of h2h combat and every category of combat HAVE A TRAINING PARADIGM SUPERIOR TO THOSE WHO DON'T.

Judoka who make it a point to cultivate comprehensive atemi waza as well as every aspect of their grappling game HAVE A TRAINING PARADIGM SUPERIOR TO THOSE WHO DON'T.

Capoeiristas who actually spar with weapons and train to make contact and realistically takedown and strike, etc etc in addition to cultivating their extraordinary vocabulary of movement, memorize and enrich the songs and music through direct contribution and participation, learn the history of capoeira, etc etc HAVE A TRAINING PARADIGM SUPERIOR TO THOSE WHO DON'T.

How do I know who has a superior training paradigm? Cuz superior martial arts performance is quantifiable: forms [ if your art has any ], weapon use, strikes locks chokes takedowns etc etc are all combat applicable and yield superior fighting skill. This rigorous physical training coupled with rigorous indoctrination in the various honorable martial arts codes of conduct tends to yield a disciplined, physically fit, honorable, long lived person who is a benefit to whatever community that this person belongs to.Furthermore... The greater your fighting [and healing ] skill? The greater the ancillary benefits you receive: physical fitness, stress relief, self-confidence, etc.

In short? The superior training paradigm perforce yields superior martial artists who perform their art in ways superior to those who don't. That's how I know. It's the most elementary, obvious common sense.

Sooo...look at your training paradigm, and see what it doesn't cover. That's one of the two areas you can improve upon. The OTHER area that you can improve upon is the area that your art DOES cover. When you cover them both? Guess what?

You're employing a superior training paradigm. Easy.

Now maybe there are martial artists out there who are perfectly satisfied with what they ARE training and don't feel the need to train any other way or any other range or whatever. That is perfectly fine with me. Have at it and have fun. They're engaged in the method that they prefer, and that's great.

However, if they engaged in a training paradigm that covered more--and did so with at least equal quality to what they're covering now--they'd have a SUPERIOR training paradigm.

Floyd Mayweather is a boxer. Boxing is good. Kickboxing is better. If Floyd added savate or TKD or Muay Thai or Capoeira to his boxing base? He'd have a combatively SUPERIOR training paradigm...although he strongly prefers and is quite happy with his BOXING training and its paradigm.

I hope you grasp my point now.

 

[Flying Crane]

Mike...I don't know anyone who looks at their approach as "flawed". However, if you ask any of my Taekwondoin brethren if they have a substantial submission grappling arsenal standing and on the ground? The honest answer is NO. Does that leave them vulnerable to being subbed or facing a good wrestler who can gnp them? YES. Is there a way to train their TKD--without having to sacrifice their distinct TKD flavor and identity--to deal with competent submissions takedowns and gnp? YES. Is this routinely done? The honest answer is NO.

How do I know? Because I'm a 5th dan in TKD and when I made these suggestions? Many TKD guys went nuts...until I pointed out that Master Hee Il Cho has done the very thing I was talking about...although I started converting mine well before 1994, as I was learning TKD and HKD nearly hand in hand with each other.

When I make comments about this or that art in TMA? They're GENERAL comments. There is NO WAY I'd know exactly what every single martial artist is doing, and I'm not interested in that. If I gave you the impression otherwise? I don't know how but I apologize for that. What I CAN say though--with certainty--refers to the GENERAL METHOD OF PRACTICE. The GENERAL training paradigm.

I'm a Judo black belt.Generally speaking? Judoka don't do jumpkicks or triple kicks, even in our self defense atemi-waza [ which I have learned ].

I'm a Kenpo 5th dan and a Hung Gar black sash. In general, you won't find Kenpoists or Kempoists--American, Chinese, Japanese, whatever---pulling off flying triangles or working the guard or pulling off The Flying Squirrel or The Spladle. In fact? Throws pins locks chokes and holds are not what these arts are generally known for...although they DO IN FACT possess these techs. Their training emphasis, IN GENERAL, is elsewhere...which gives them a largely "stand up striking" identity. Which means that they too are vulnerable to what they train LESS of or DON'T TRAIN.

Do the practitioners of ANY of these arts feel that their art is flawed? NO. Their art is NOT flawed. They have good reason to feel the way that they do. Now, can anyone from any of those arts improve drastically by employing a training paradigm that improves their entire martial arsenal [ inclusive of tactics and healing ] in every category and range of self defense? YES.

A training paradigm that improves martial performance, knowledge, etc. is a SUPERIOR training paradigm.

Therefore...Taekwondoin who reach into their art and realize that they have throws, locks etc. and proceed to practice throws locks takedowns ground strikes weapons and defenses against same have a TRAINING PARADIGM SUPERIOR to those who DON'T do so...even though all TKD practitioners in theory have THE SAME ARSENAL.

Chinese Kempoists who develope superior athleticism and comprehensive grappling and subgrappling have a superior TRAINING PARADIGM to those who don't...even though all Chinese Kempoists in theory have the same arsenal.

American Kenpoists who train their techniques and self-defense sequences to perform in every range of h2h combat and every category of combat HAVE A TRAINING PARADIGM SUPERIOR TO THOSE WHO DON'T.

Judoka who make it a point to cultivate comprehensive atemi waza as well as every aspect of their grappling game HAVE A TRAINING PARADIGM SUPERIOR TO THOSE WHO DON'T.

Capoeiristas who actually spar with weapons and train to make contact and realistically takedown and strike, etc etc in addition to cultivating their extraordinary vocabulary of movement, memorize and enrich the songs and music through direct contribution and participation, learn the history of capoeira, etc etc HAVE A TRAINING PARADIGM SUPERIOR TO THOSE WHO DON'T.

How do I know who has a superior training paradigm? Cuz superior martial arts performance is quantifiable: forms [ if your art has any ], weapon use, strikes locks chokes takedowns etc etc are all combat applicable and yield superior fighting skill. This rigorous physical training coupled with rigorous indoctrination in the various honorable martial arts codes of conduct tends to yield a disciplined, physically fit, honorable, long lived person who is a benefit to whatever community that this person belongs to.Furthermore... The greater your fighting [and healing ] skill? The greater the ancillary benefits you receive: physical fitness, stress relief, self-confidence, etc.

In short? The superior training paradigm perforce yields superior martial artists who perform their art in ways superior to those who don't. That's how I know. It's the most elementary, obvious common sense.

Sooo...look at your training paradigm, and see what it doesn't cover. That's one of the two areas you can improve upon. The OTHER area that you can improve upon is the area that your art DOES cover. When you cover them both? Guess what?

You're employing a superior training paradigm. Easy.

Now maybe there are martial artists out there who are perfectly satisfied with what they ARE training and don't feel the need to train any other way or any other range or whatever. That is perfectly fine with me. Have at it and have fun. They're engaged in the method that they prefer, and that's great.

However, if they engaged in a training paradigm that covered more--and did so with at least equal quality to what they're covering now--they'd have a SUPERIOR training paradigm.

Floyd Mayweather is a boxer. Boxing is good. Kickboxing is better. If Floyd added savate or TKD or Muay Thai or Capoeira to his boxing base? He'd have a combatively SUPERIOR training paradigm...although he strongly prefers and is quite happy with his BOXING training and its paradigm.

I hope you grasp my point now.

firstly, I don't take any insult at anything you say, so don't worry about that. that was never my point in speaking up.

as to the rest, I do understand your point, but I don't agree with how you approach it. I'm not interested in debating the differences, but I'll just say I don't agree. Again, two people talking past each other.

I'm reminded of an ongoing debate I've had with my mother for far too many years. She is a devout catholic and sees aspects of her religious faith in all aspects of her life. I don't. I've separated myself from the church and andy organized religion of all kinds, much to my mother's despair. She keeps trying to pull me back into it. I try to explain to her that while my path differs from hers, I am a good person, she did a good job raising her son to be a good person, and my path is the right path for me. She can't leave it alone and keeps trying to tell me: well you are wrong about your choice because XYZ...

that's an argument that neither of us will win, neither of us will ever convince the other. So I finally just said, this topic is not open for discussion or debate. It just is what it is, end of story.

That's the same kind of debate that I see going on in your threads.