Yet another TMA vs. MMA debate

[Andrew Green]

Apparently yes. The argument always seems to come back to having to defend yourself against an MMA guy, so the only thing I can think is that they must be out there circling like sharks waiting to start fights.

Lol - No, I don't think that's it

I will agree that a lot of stuff that will work on a person with any training, won't work on a person with training. That's basically common sense.

One of the key differences though is a Sport driven martial art, be it wrestling, Judo, boxing, MMA, or anything else the assumption is that you will be fighting a person that is skilled, and knows what they are doing. That's who we train against, and who we train to fight.

Of course we fight untrained people too, they are called beginners

But we never assume that "I'll get away with it because he won't know what to do." So something like a jumping spin kick, a good way to land on your head against a trained fighter, is not going to get done

 

[zDom]

But we never assume that "I'll get away with it because he won't know what to do." So something like a jumping spin kick, a good way to land on your head against a trained fighter, is not going to get done

And what makes you think a hapkido-ist operates on the premise of "I'll get away with it because he won't know what to do"?

I've hit trained fighters with jump spin kicks and not landed on my head. Many times. It DOES get done. I've done it. I hit one of the fastest point-style stylists within a couple hundred miles with one, in front of a gym filled with people. I think someone even has it on tape.

It probably won't work for a beginner, though, or somebody who has tried to cherry-pick that technique from our art and add it to the mix.

I'd rather have a tool and not need it than need the tool and not have it.

It is all a matter of knowing WHEN it is appropriate and useful. That is the "art" you study once you have the basic tools (having basic tools = black belt).

Only a beginner without any true knowledge and understanding of the art is stupid enough to try a jump spinning kick at the wrong time and "land on their head."

I've seen spinning kicks end UFC fights. I've even seen sloppy, amatuerish roundhouse kicks end UFC and Pride Fights.

So if I have someone stunned, why not jump spinning heel kick them to the head for a finish instead of landing a "barrage of Muay Thai elbows" or "jumping Muay Thai upward knee kick" to the head?

This may come as a surprise to some MMA enthusiasts, but guess what: I know how do to a jumping upward knee and an elbow strike. Very well.

But I ALSO know how to do a jump spinning heel kick.

That combined with feinting (something we practice LOT during stand up sparring) means an opponent just doesn't know what might be *really* coming next. And those are the ones that end up hitting really, really hard.

Limit your options, and soon enough your opponents will have trained responses for your limited list of options and a good chance of anticipating exactly what you will do.

Ask Royce.

 

[zDom]

Sure it is, merge Wrestling, boxing and BJJ, what do you get? All are very different in goals, and produce something unique.

This is yet another fallacy.

To wit: wrestling, boxing and BJJ are *all sports*. The goal in each is exactly the same: win within the parameters of the sport.

So what do you get when you mix them? A new sport with new parameters.

Cfr is asking: is possible to merge sport-oriented training with non-sport oriented training to train self-defense.

My answer: yes, but your sport training will suffer some because you are taking time away from training for your sport to concentrate on things that happen outside your sport.

Having said that, there are LOTS of things that work IN the ring that will also work OUTSIDE the ring (i.e., during self defense).

But self defense is not limited to what happens IN the ring.

Example: IN the ring you train to deal with ONE opponent. Outside the ring there very well may be MORE than one (that is *usually* the case in Southeast Missouri, by the way).

So something like "taking them to the ground to get to a mounted position" is something that is NOT a good stratgegy to use outside the ring.

I can provide more examples if you want to discuss this at length -- I suggest a new thread for this discussion, if so.

Sometimes, but not for everyone. Most people that train in MMA will never step into a ring. Does the training have to be geared towards ring work? No, no more then TKD has to be geared towards Olympic style sparring, or Karate to point fighting. It's just one aspect and the most visible one.

Just one aspect and the most visible one because: MMA was developed for use inside the ring! It is a subset of martial art techniques demonstrated to be effective inside the ring. Period.

If most people that train MMA never step into the ring, I submit they may have their purposes better served by training a TMA, but then I also recommend selecting the BEST training hall you have available, regardless of style, regardless of if its MMA or TMA.

Just like those who closely tailor their MMA practice to fighting in the ring, those who closely tailor their TKD to Olympic Style or their Karate to point style often find they are not as prepared for self-defense.

Why? Because training is highly specific. You fight like you train.

Completely ineffective? I don't think so. A sport martial artist (MMA, TKD, or Karate) probably has the tools to do pretty well against most attackers.

But that is not their speciality.

For a non-ring based but rather well known example have a look at the Dog Brothers. Same ideas, but with sticks, and without being a "official" sport. But the concepts are the same, set up the environment, provide minimal rules required for safety and see what works when you really go at it with very limited rules. They still punch, kick, wrestle, use submissions, etc.

In that case, they are no longer "MMA" as defined above. They are simply a "non-traditional martial art." See the JKD forum, for example.

You think the concept of "provide minimal rules required for safety and see what works when you really go at it with very limited rules" isn't something TMA have used for centuries?

It is just a matter of where you set the bar for "safety" and how much you want to limit the rules.

So if MMA can be merged with weapons fighting, something with different goals, it seems perfectly plausible that it can be merged with self-defence geared training doesn't it?

MMA = TMA minus some techniques to make it sport.

Right? I mean, MMA fighters aren't doing anything that we don't do already in hapkido, are they?

MMA plus previously ommitted techniques to make it self-defense, then = ...........?

Answer: reconstituted TMA.

So what is your big beef with TMA? You don't like our white pajamas? You don't like our colored belts? You don't like our courtesies and customs?

Tell me why you think the MMA path is so much better than the TMA path. Again, this is probably best done in another thread, but start one and I will play along.

Speaking for myself only: I train for Real Life. I play games because they can give some indication of what works, how to make things work.

But I choose my games based on my long term goals.

For example, I like sparring without kicks to the knees (non-Olympic TKD style) because I want to be able to continue to kick for another 50 years instead of 5. But don't think for a SECOND that I am unable to kick knee high. I am able to do so with devastating force.

 

[tradrockrat]

And why should I only keep techniques that work against high-caliber opponents? Is Matt Hughes out to get me?

If he's after me I'm ****ed.

 

[tradrockrat]

For a non-ring based but rather well known example have a look at the Dog Brothers. Same ideas, but with sticks, and without being a "official" sport. But the concepts are the same, set up the environment, provide minimal rules required for safety and see what works when you really go at it with very limited rules. They still punch, kick, wrestle, use submissions, etc.

Dog brothers LOVE Bando stick work. They've incorporated it into their training system. Does that make me a MMA?


I only bring this up to get back on subject. W're supposed to nbe talking about if you have attempted to incorperate MMA style training into your TMA or vice versa in order to maximize the benefits of both ways of training...right? Or am I completely wrong here?

Those that want to argue the supperiority of their way should PM each other or go back to one of the TREMENDOUS amount of threads already dedicated to that. Don't TMA's and MMA's stress discipline? Can we show some here by sticking to the topic?

sorry to sound like a teacher...

 

[tradrockrat]

I agree. Ive been known to wonder off topic a time or two, which is why I haven't complained too much.... but I still agree.

yeah - I'm no angel myself as far as it goes, but there are some very good responses here. Unfortunately they're burried under the arguing. I'm just genuinely interested in the question, myself.

 

[Rook]

Why does it have to be the most likely or optimal way? I thought we were discussing "effective."

There is a whole spectrum of less-effective to more effective ways of doing things. Its hard to simply make this a black or white issue - its more of a discussion about the best, optimal way to fight unarmed rather than what could work.

Better way? Fights are dynamic. Training a wide variety of responses improves your chances. That's what TMAs do.

This is a huge discussion topic on CMA boards where the idea of an ideal number of techniques to practice ranges from one favorite technique done well to thousands upon thousands. Part of what we have seen to date in MMA is that someone with only a few techiques often be forced outside his area of specialty, and someone with many techniques often isn't very proficient at any of them. We're not sure exactly what the ideal number is yet, but we're working on it.

You think a scoop throw is "better" than a major outer reaping thow (Osoto Gari) just because it is easier to learn and you see it used in the ring more often?

There are advantages and disadvantages to both ways, but the outer reaping throw gives up your back and brings you off balance in a way the standard scooping throw doesn't. Osoto gari has been used in MMA and will likely continue to show up when especially appropriate.

Which is better -- a screwdriver or a hammer? An allen wrench or a crescent wrench? Shouldn't we just find the best tools and throw out the rest? No -- because different tools are "best" in different situations.

Well, any fighter has a large toolbox. The search is for the best mix of tools. Should I have 10 screwdrivers and 1 hammer, with no room for the cresent wrench, maybe 3 of each instead, maybe 4 hammers.... I'd rather see who gets more work done and gets the tool they need faster and then buy a similar set of tools.

And why should I only keep techniques that work against high-caliber opponents? Is Matt Hughes out to get me?

I think this is a critical difference. I see my quest as figuring out the best possible way to effectively fight, rather than how much I can get away with with what I already have.

I need tools that help me in what I am most likely to have to deal with: a small group of drunk, mean hicks.

Ok.

 

[zDom]

While this seems mostly to be off-topic, here we go:

There is a whole spectrum of less-effective to more effective ways of doing things. Its hard to simply make this a black or white issue - its more of a discussion about the best, optimal way to fight unarmed rather than what could work.

Not sure the above is really this topic. Maybe a new thread should be started. I would argue that "best, optimal" changes significantly depending on the circumstances.

This is a huge discussion topic on CMA boards where the idea of an ideal number of techniques to practice ranges from one favorite technique done well to thousands upon thousands. Part of what we have seen to date in MMA is that someone with only a few techiques often be forced outside his area of specialty, and someone with many techniques often isn't very proficient at any of them. We're not sure exactly what the ideal number is yet, but we're working on it.

Here is a place I can completely agree with you. "Ideal" varies from individual to individual, I believe, and is influenced by how much time one is able and willing to dedicate to training.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both ways, but the outer reaping throw gives up your back and brings you off balance in a way the standard scooping throw doesn't. Osoto gari has been used in MMA and will likely continue to show up when especially appropriate.

Fallacy and/or misconception.

Major Outer Reaping Throw does NOT give up your back. It begins chest-to-chest and ends with the receiver's head hitting the ground. When done correctly, the thrower is not off balance.

Maybe this is a good example of how MMA's lack of depth in some areas, such as throwing, leads to misconceptions and misunderstandings about techniques.

When especially appropriate? Like, maybe, in all those clinches when one guy is committing his balance to one leg while trying to use a knee strike?

Well, any fighter has a large toolbox. The search is for the best mix of tools. Should I have 10 screwdrivers and 1 hammer, with no room for the cresent wrench, maybe 3 of each instead, maybe 4 hammers.... I'd rather see who gets more work done and gets the tool they need faster and then buy a similar set of tools.

BS. Boxers, for example, have a relatively SMALL toolbox - jab, hook, uppercut, cross -- am I forgetting any?

Having the right tools readily available (in this case = well trained) always means getting more work done, not being able to grab a tool faster.

I think this is a critical difference. I see my quest as figuring out the best possible way to effectively fight, rather than how much I can get away with with what I already have.

You misinterpret me once again and infer too much. Just because I don't dedicate an overwhelming percentage of my training time techniques that work against high-caliber opponents does NOT mean that I am trying to get by with "how much I can get away with with what I already have."

You keep LOOKING for the "best possible way to effectively fight." I wish you well in your quest.

In the meantime, I will keep TRAINING in a curriculum that is PROVEN (many, many times over) to be a VERY effective fighting method.

Is it the best possible way to effectively fight? Depends: what kind of fight are you talking about?

In any case, MSK hapkdio happens to be THE best training option in THIS area for self defense -- for those able and willing to endure the training.

The local MMA guys have all the respect in the world for us. You know why? They've seen us train.

Come visit us (as you are on a quest, after all) and I think your opinion of TMA may change.

 

[Andrew Green]

Maybe this is a good example of how MMA's lack of depth in some areas, such as throwing, leads to misconceptions and misunderstandings about techniques.

And again, this is not the case. MMA lacks depth on certain things simply because they do not work well in that environment. A outer reap is not that common in Freestyle wrestling either, why?

I did traditional styles for years, and you know what, they are not any "deeper" in there understanding, just more misconceptions due to a lack of testing thing, not always, but often. Palm to the nose kills, kick the knee, it only takes 8 lbs of pressure to break and will snap, etc.

When especially appropriate? Like, maybe, in all those clinches when one guy is committing his balance to one leg while trying to use a knee strike?

Guys don't start throwing knees without tieing up loose ends first, just because you don't recognize what they are doing, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

BS. Boxers, for example, have a relatively SMALL toolbox - jab, hook, uppercut, cross -- am I forgetting any?

Many, thats like saying all Hapkido has is punches, kicks and a few locks. Again, just because you don't see the depth, doesn't mean it isn't there.

In any case, MSK hapkdio happens to be THE best training option in THIS area for self defense -- for those able and willing to endure the training.

That's your opinion, mine is that MMA is the best place to start, if that is not around Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Wrestling, Catch, Sambo, and a few others would come in after it.

The local MMA guys have all the respect in the world for us. You know why? They've seen us train.

Excellent, now why not return it?

If there is a way to find a medium it is going to require respect and understanding from both sides. So unless you can accept that MMA does have things that Hapkido lacks, and does have just as much depth you will never be able to bridge the two.

 

[Rook]

While this seems mostly to be off-topic, here we go:

Not sure the above is really this topic. Maybe a new thread should be started. I would argue that "best, optimal" changes significantly depending on the circumstances.

To a certain extent, yes. Mostly, though, physics is physics. There are a lot of ways to generate power or techniques to use, but some are better than others in general.

Here is a place I can completely agree with you. "Ideal" varies from individual to individual, I believe, and is influenced by how much time one is able and willing to dedicate to training.

Definately.

Fallacy and/or misconception.

Major Outer Reaping Throw does NOT give up your back. It begins chest-to-chest and ends with the receiver's head hitting the ground. When done correctly, the thrower is not off balance.

"When done correctly" is ussually a problematic statement. Done perfectly correctly, a given technique is perfectly effective every time, yet we know that this doesn't happen. We have to look at what happens and how often.

Maybe this is a good example of how MMA's lack of depth in some areas, such as throwing, leads to misconceptions and misunderstandings about techniques.

Perhaps. Misconceptions are best changed in matches.... its how MMA got started and its how it will evolve.

When especially appropriate? Like, maybe, in all those clinches when one guy is committing his balance to one leg while trying to use a knee strike?

That would be a time when a person is more vulnerable to a throw; During a kick, even more so.

BS. Boxers, for example, have a relatively SMALL toolbox - jab, hook, uppercut, cross -- am I forgetting any?

You skipped shovel punches, unless those count as uppercut variations. Boxers are specialized to one range, however. It might be a good idea to add tools from other ranges (kicking range, cliching range, ground) to supplement what they have at that range. The matches so far have supported that.

Having the right tools readily available (in this case = well trained) always means getting more work done, not being able to grab a tool faster.

Perhaps. I do volunteer work for habitat for humanity on occasion and one of the things I notice is that enthusiastic volunteers often show up with huge toolboxes with way more tools than they need (or no tools at all...) and the professionals ussually carry a few high quality pieces that they reach for without even needing to look at the box.

You misinterpret me once again and infer too much. Just because I don't dedicate an overwhelming percentage of my training time techniques that work against high-caliber opponents does NOT mean that I am trying to get by with "how much I can get away with with what I already have."

Ok.

You keep LOOKING for the "best possible way to effectively fight." I wish you well in your quest.

Thanks.

In the meantime, I will keep TRAINING in a curriculum that is PROVEN (many, many times over) to be a VERY effective fighting method.

Ok.

Is it the best possible way to effectively fight? Depends: what kind of fight are you talking about?

In any case, MSK hapkdio happens to be THE best training option in THIS area for self defense -- for those able and willing to endure the training.

The local MMA guys have all the respect in the world for us. You know why? They've seen us train.

Come visit us (as you are on a quest, after all) and I think your opinion of TMA may change.

 

[zDom]

Talk about defending against mulitple attackers

Where do I begin? With yet another line-by-line rebuttal that you two will then dissect and counter with out-of-context arguments?

Hardly seems worth the time.

MMA lacks depth on certain things simply because they do not work well in that environment.

I disagree. I've seen Judo guys pull off some devastating throws in MMA contests. It just takes time to develop proficiency in throwing -- time MMA would rather spend on groundwork and clinches.

And throwing becomes even MORE effective when its not happening on a mat.

I did traditional styles for years, and you know what, they are not any "deeper" in there understanding, just more misconceptions due to a lack of testing thing, not always, but often. Palm to the nose kills, kick the knee, it only takes 8 lbs of pressure to break and will snap, etc.

I never said "deeper understanding" in the way you are implying. Depth of technique is achieved through repetition. So, getting depth in throwing requires lots and lots of throwing.

Not much repetition, shallow experience. Lots of repetition results in depth.

Does BJJ have more "depth" in groundwork that hapkido? Absolutely. They got that depth at the cost of not spending as much time on throwing.

Yet you seem to think MMAists know everything they need to know about throwing and kicking after taking a crash course in Muay Thai and BJJ.

FWIW, we don't practice "palm to the nose." Our techniques are firmly rooted in physics and physiology.

Sorry if your TMA experience wasn't as productive as mine has been.

And, fwiw, a single punch to the mouth or evan a single slap to the head can kill someone dead (both happened here.) Of course, I don't base my self defense around the hope that a one-hit kill will happen. I use that information to caution myself on the possible repercussions of my choice of techniques.

Guys don't start throwing knees without tieing up loose ends first, just because you don't recognize what they are doing, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

It was just an example. Surely you aren't trying to say that MMA guys ALWAYS have all the bases covered when they start throwing knees?

And exactly what loose ends do they tie up to stay perfectly balanced on one leg while throwing knees so they are not open to a reaping throw? The mighty underhooks?

You really do think I am so clueless about the fighting arts that I can't recognize what is going on in a clinch?

It was just an example.

Many, thats like saying all Hapkido has is punches, kicks and a few locks. Again, just because you don't see the depth, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Again, you misunderstand and quote without the full context.

Boxing has a limited toolbox, but boxers have great depth in the art of punching because: that's all they do! Great repetition. I see the depth.

I simply rebutted the false statement that all fighters have a big toolboxes.

Boxers, for example, do not. Just great depth with the tools they have.

So: am I wrong? List all the punches I forgot to list. Prove me wrong. And synonyms for punches does NOT count as seperate techniques.

In any case, MSK hapkdio happens to be THE best training option in THIS area for self defense -- for those able and willing to endure the training.

That's your opinion, mine is that MMA is the best place to start, if that is not around Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Wrestling, Catch, Sambo, and a few others would come in after it.

I requoted my comment so we could all see just how out of context your response was.

I was speaking for THIS area. You haven't seen either the local MMA club nor my hapkido dojang, but you are saying MMA is the better choice here, sights unseen?

:bs:

Locally, we don't have a problem with MUTUAL respect between TMA and MMA.

Here on this forum, on the other hand, there are several MMA proponents who seem to have an agenda that consists of discrediting TMAs using fallacies and unsubstantiated claims.

Quote and paste an attack I have launched against the MMA community (not responses).

These MMA proponents here are demanding respect while actively disrespecting. Refusing to understand truths about TMA while demanding we "understand" that MMA is the only viable fighting system.

So unless you can accept that MMA does have things that Hapkido lacks, and does have just as much depth you will never be able to bridge the two.

What does MMA have that hapkido lacks? Substantiate this statement.

Just as much depth? Depth in what? MMA has more depth in groundwork, without a doubt. Not as much depth in throwing, kicking, joint locking.

"When done correctly" is ussually a problematic statement. Done perfectly correctly, a given technique is perfectly effective every time, yet we know that this doesn't happen. We have to look at what happens and how often.

I didn't say done perfectly, just correctly. It takes 1,000 repetitions to get the basic knowledge of how most throws works. It takes 10,000 reps to master (become very proficient, not perfect) those throws.

You can't "look at what happens" when a novice tries a technique and then judge a technique on that basis.

Misconceptions are best changed in matches.... its how MMA got started and its how it will evolve.

Not true. Matches are just one place that can happen. And having rules skews the results. Example: eliminating heel kicks to the kidneys had dramatically affected the dynamic of having someone in your guard position -- don't you agree?

You skipped shovel punches, unless those count as uppercut variations. Boxers are specialized to one range, however. It might be a good idea to add tools from other ranges (kicking range, cliching range, ground) to supplement what they have at that range. The matches so far have supported that.

Your original statement: ALL fighters have big toolboxes. You are switching arguments mid stream.

I am willing to correct myself or be corrected when I state something incorrect. Is it too much to ask that you do the same?

 

[Cryozombie]

Excellent, now why not return it?

If there is a way to find a medium it is going to require respect and understanding from both sides.

Andrew... for my part I have to say that I have seen both sides. I attended the BJJ classes that were held at my old Hapkido school, I have attended MMA matches in person, we had an MMA guy visit our school and show us some stuff, and Ive even been to a seminar or 2.

Its good stuff. I have never denied that. I think outside the ring, it needs more, which is where blending some TMA training would be a bonus... but I give the ideas and the training props.

MY attitude goes back to the sucktastic attitude that DRIPS off most MMA guys with their "If it aint MMA its total and absolute **** and will never work." If the MMA guys wanna throw that crap around, I have no problem bitching back. I don't lack respect for MMA, I lack respect for MMA FIGHTERS. When they want it, they can earn it.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

As far as the original topic is concerned, I think after 5 pages we now have our official, definitive answer.

This rift is not fixable.

My interaction with this thread is over.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As far as the original topic is concerned, I think after 5 pages we now have our official, definitive answer.

This rift is not fixable.

My interaction with this thread is over.

Agreed

Happy medium between TMA and MMA for self defense?

I would guess no, based on this and the multiple other posts on the subject

And I would like to add the fact that there is no happy medium is ridiculous.

See ya

 

[Rook]

As far as the original topic is concerned, I think after 5 pages we now have our official, definitive answer.

This rift is not fixable.

I think the rift is probably not bridgable either. Believers on each side have very different ideas of what constitutes proof and evidence and this may never be resolved.

 

[Rook]

Talk about defending against mulitple attackers

Where do I begin? With yet another line-by-line rebuttal that you two will then dissect and counter with out-of-context arguments?

Hardly seems worth the time.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm trying to get to the bottom of the middle-ground disagreement.

I disagree. I've seen Judo guys pull off some devastating throws in MMA contests. It just takes time to develop proficiency in throwing -- time MMA would rather spend on groundwork and clinches.

Some judo throws have been done well. However, if you have followed Karo Pariesian (a Judo olympic gold medalist) you will probably notice that he hasn't been very sucessful with his throws or his matches in general. Nakamura (an olympian judoka) and Yoshida (Gold medalist in judo as well) use almost as many wrestling takedowns as judo throws even though they already had their throwing ability well established before they switched to MMA.

And throwing becomes even MORE effective when its not happening on a mat.

True. So do the wrestling takedowns, slams and suplexes though.

I never said "deeper understanding" in the way you are implying. Depth of technique is achieved through repetition. So, getting depth in throwing requires lots and lots of throwing.

Not much repetition, shallow experience. Lots of repetition results in depth.

Does BJJ have more "depth" in groundwork that hapkido? Absolutely. They got that depth at the cost of not spending as much time on throwing.

Yet you seem to think MMAists know everything they need to know about throwing and kicking after taking a crash course in Muay Thai and BJJ.

More or less.

FWIW, we don't practice "palm to the nose." Our techniques are firmly rooted in physics and physiology.

Sorry if your TMA experience wasn't as productive as mine has been.

And, fwiw, a single punch to the mouth or evan a single slap to the head can kill someone dead (both happened here.) Of course, I don't base my self defense around the hope that a one-hit kill will happen. I use that information to caution myself on the possible repercussions of my choice of techniques.

Ok.

It was just an example. Surely you aren't trying to say that MMA guys ALWAYS have all the bases covered when they start throwing knees?

And exactly what loose ends do they tie up to stay perfectly balanced on one leg while throwing knees so they are not open to a reaping throw? The mighty underhooks?

Takedown defense and throw defense is a pretty complicated science unto itself. Its not really visable unless you know what you're looking for alot of times.

You really do think I am so clueless about the fighting arts that I can't recognize what is going on in a clinch?

It was just an example.



Again, you misunderstand and quote without the full context.

Boxing has a limited toolbox, but boxers have great depth in the art of punching because: that's all they do! Great repetition. I see the depth.

I simply rebutted the false statement that all fighters have a big toolboxes.

Boxers, for example, do not. Just great depth with the tools they have.

So: am I wrong? List all the punches I forgot to list. Prove me wrong. And synonyms for punches does NOT count as seperate techniques.



I requoted my comment so we could all see just how out of context your response was.

I was speaking for THIS area. You haven't seen either the local MMA club nor my hapkido dojang, but you are saying MMA is the better choice here, sights unseen?

:bs:

Locally, we don't have a problem with MUTUAL respect between TMA and MMA.

Here on this forum, on the other hand, there are several MMA proponents who seem to have an agenda that consists of discrediting TMAs using fallacies and unsubstantiated claims.

Quote and paste an attack I have launched against the MMA community (not responses).

These MMA proponents here are demanding respect while actively disrespecting. Refusing to understand truths about TMA while demanding we "understand" that MMA is the only viable fighting system.

Ok.

What does MMA have that hapkido lacks? Substantiate this statement.

Sucess in no-rules challenge fights and fights close to them. I have seen reams upon reams of tapes of BJJ, MMA, SAMBO, etc. guys pounding or submitting people from other arts, but I don't think I have seen traditional hapkido used sucesfully against any ranked MMAist or even a solid unranked one. Most of them are open to the challenge. For some reason, no one is showing them what they lack.

Just as much depth? Depth in what? MMA has more depth in groundwork, without a doubt. Not as much depth in throwing, kicking, joint locking.

Ok.

I didn't say done perfectly, just correctly. It takes 1,000 repetitions to get the basic knowledge of how most throws works. It takes 10,000 reps to master (become very proficient, not perfect) those throws.

You can't "look at what happens" when a novice tries a technique and then judge a technique on that basis.

This is part of why MMA fans are so eager to get the best proponents of other arts on tape fighting or in the ring - so we can figure out what works. So far though, we get videos, and then people say "oh, well, he's not a true representative/his lineage isn't good/he was having a bad day/he hasn't reached a state of enlightenment yet" and then don't send a better practitioner to correct our percieved misperception.

Not true. Matches are just one place that can happen. And having rules skews the results. Example: eliminating heel kicks to the kidneys had dramatically affected the dynamic of having someone in your guard position -- don't you agree?

Not really. The heelkicks have pretty much passed from the arsenels of groundfighters even in tournaments in which they are perfectly legal because they aren't really worth the energy. In the old UFCs, they encouraged people to try to pass Royce's guard, but they really aren't that effective.

Your original statement: ALL fighters have big toolboxes. You are switching arguments mid stream.

I am willing to correct myself or be corrected when I state something incorrect. Is it too much to ask that you do the same?

I will gladly eat my words when I see contrary evidence. When I make a mistake on here, I ussually admit it promptly.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I have no problem with TMA versus MMA because to me the dichotomy is only one of words people use. Today's MMA is tomorrow's TMA. *shrug*. Everyone trains for a different reason and for some people forms may be a part pf getting to their goal and for others they are not. It's not an either/or but a continium that starts with 'cardio kickboxing' through sparring to pure self-defense-only and every one lives somewhere on that line in their goals and adapts the tools they think are neccessary to achieve that goal. Each way of fighting has theories based on experience of what works and derive from that a philosophical underpinning that is expressed in hopefully practical applications.

 

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Supermod

 

[cfr]

You know who you are, don't be shy.

 

[zDom]

:shrug: Ok.

I'm trying to get to the bottom of the middle-ground disagreement.

...

What does MMA have that hapkido lacks? Substantiate this statement.

Sucess in no-rules challenge fights and fights close to them. I have seen reams upon reams of tapes of BJJ, MMA, SAMBO, etc. guys pounding or submitting people from other arts, but I don't think I have seen traditional hapkido used sucesfully against any ranked MMAist or even a solid unranked one. Most of them are open to the challenge. For some reason, no one is showing them what they lack.

It is a lesson in futility to discuss anything with someone who operates on the premise that "If I don't see it it doesn't exist."

Even with small joint manipulation not being included, I would love to watch any fights in which a certified hapkido expert competed in a MMA arena.

Please cite some fights I can look up in which a hapkido expert took place.

This is part of why MMA fans are so eager to get the best proponents of other arts on tape fighting or in the ring - so we can figure out what works. So far though, we get videos, and then people say "oh, well, he's not a true representative/his lineage isn't good/he was having a bad day/he hasn't reached a state of enlightenment yet" and then don't send a better practitioner to correct our percieved misperception.

If MMA fans really want to see go ahead and have one of them attack a hapkido master. Have them bring a video camera because I'd really like to see it, too, although for me an anecdote from a reliable source will suffice.

Quote:
Not true. Matches are just one place that can happen. And having rules skews the results. Example: eliminating heel kicks to the kidneys had dramatically affected the dynamic of having someone in your guard position -- don't you agree?

Not really. The heelkicks have pretty much passed from the arsenels of groundfighters even in tournaments in which they are perfectly legal because they aren't really worth the energy. In the old UFCs, they encouraged people to try to pass Royce's guard, but they really aren't that effective.

Says who? Ever felt a heel kick to the kidney?

I will gladly eat my words when I see contrary evidence. When I make a mistake on here, I ussually admit it promptly.

Right -- because if you don't SEE it, then it isn't evidence, right?

As I can not produce videotape to support any of my past experiences you can't be convinced of anything by me.

When you quote this line by line, I'd like you to answer these questions just for future reference.

How many times have you defended yourself in empty handed combat?

What is your fighting arts background? How many years have you been training? What kind of karate? And how much time have you spent training MMA?