WSLVT

[ShortBridge]

Wing Chun politics are tiring and disappointing.

 

[KPM]

That is a very complex explanation. It requires a lot more work for lots of different people came up with such very different interpretations, compared to the simpler explanation of just not many people learning it correctly, which only requires a lack of work or care by Yip Man

Ok. Now that almost makes sense. I think that is the most succinctly and directly that you have stated it so far.

 

[guy b]

Wing Chun politics are tiring and disappointing.

In what way is this politics?

 

[guy b]

So what you are saying is that the person who traveled with WSL, who was chosen to give his eulogy would not be close, not know his art fully? What's?!?!?

Have a look, you decide. It takes a lot of effort, and some people just put in a lot more than others.

 

[guy b]

Ok. Now that almost makes sense. I think that is the most succinctly and directly that you have stated it so far.

This is a different (weaker) argument made because Juany wanted to talk about simplicity as a criterion for judging reality. The broken to fixed/fixed to broken probability argument is a better one overall.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is a very complex explanation. It requires a lot more work for lots of different people came up with such very different interpretations, compared to the simpler explanation of just not many people learning it correctly, which only requires a lack of work or care by Yip Man

No, it doesn't take a lot more work. It just takes some intelligent people who emphasize different areas of what they were taught. People are not computers - they do not replicate what they were taught (even if they try to do so). It is always re-interpreted to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is indeed an excellent reason to believe this- his VT and his understanding of the system



That video is so far removed from the actual practice of WSL VT, even in branches without the full picture, that it is difficult to know where to start. It portrays a very faded image but covers none of the important detail. Anyone can see that it contains no important strategic information, and that the fighting method shown is cartoonish to say the least.

A nicely vague reply, giving not a single bit of actual information in reply to a question.

 

[Juany118]

Have a look, you decide. It takes a lot of effort, and some people just put in a lot more than others.

I have looked. The evidence available says one thing, you say another so I ask you to present evidence. I have presented videos, links to the WSL student's web site. Now, besides a fiat statement please produce evidence. If I am wrong I actually welcome it. I love fixing mistakes, learning knew things, I thirst for data. Fiat statements without supporting verifiable data however aren't informative.

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[LFJ]

Both Bayer and Petersen traveled to HK to study and were not residents.

Actually, PB lived there, training every day, for the first 18 months of his VT education under WSL. WSL spent a lot of time with him in Europe and prior to his untimely death, he was in the process of moving to Germany to live above PB's school.

DP, on the other hand, was an occasional visitor who came for a month or two on holidays. Not long enough to learn more than a few basic ideas to take back home and fill the gaps with previous WC experience and looking at other lineages and assuming they should be similar enough. The seminars he hosted were also brief, public, and basic.

PB speaks of how for such a long time all he did was seung-ma/teui-ma drills, to the point he thought it was the only drill in VT. It's very important and teaches a ton of things. Yet, an occasional visitor is gong to learn VT in great depth in a month or two per year? Not a chance.

 

[LFJ]

WSL and other more modern teachers actually started producing lists of people authorized to teach their system in an effort to prevent controversies such as what we saw with the passing of YM himself. Among the places such a list can be found is http://www.wslstudents.org/? , Among others.

You realize that student association was founded 15 years after the passing of WSL?!

He never authorized such a list or named any heirs. The certificates he gave out were merely a "thank you" to students, according to PB.

The founders of that association were also teens or pre-teens when WSL died. They didn't ever spend much time with WSL and learned mostly from si-hing like DP. They attempt to claim gate-keeper status over the lineage and standardize the system without really knowing it.

They also list "1st gen. students" with even far less experience than them. Low quality control, as guy b stated.

Plus, at first they wanted to charge 1st gen. students membership fees to join, but they couldn't get anyone's support. So, they awarded honorary lifetime memberships to them so that it seems as if the most senior students are all on board now with their ideas. It's a sham.

I am a data driven guy. If you post something that contradicts my data I am open to changing my mind. It's an occupational hazard that I follow the evidence vs simply what someone says.

We have discussed DP's understanding of VT before you came to the forum here. It's not something I try to detail often because it's difficult to avoid causing offense when talking about deficiencies in a well-known teacher's learning.

But here goes again;

DP's interpretation of VT, the forms and everything, is all application-based. It's as if what he received from WSL during his brief visits was a phrasebook. He could put a few "words" together, but never learned to actually "speak the language", never mind fluently. He lacked the immersion experience.

An example is the so-called "paau-bong" section of Cham-kiu. His interpretation of this action is a direct application for when your hands are down and a punch suddenly comes your way, so you "throw" your bong-sau at it with wu-sau as a backup defense, using the structure as an emergency shield.

He says in application, you will actually step backward, but the form steps forward to ingrain the idea of advancing. So, basically, he's saying what we train thousands of times in the form is incorrect footwork for the application!

This is illogical and impractical, plus, he has never ever even touched on the VT fighting strategy of wu-sau. It's all application thinking. His wu-sau from SNT is a literal application drawing a punch in and off line. Wu-sau is drawn back in the form so that we can train a full fuk elbow, but he has given an application to it.

Without knowing better, you might not find these ideas problematic. But what this section of CK is actually training is abstract. It's developing synchronicity of the step, elbow rotation, and punch (kwan-sau). It is an uncompleted action that DP has given an impractical defensive application to. We're thinking develop body unity and elbow control coupled with the punch. He's thinking "uh-oh, my hands are down and a punch is coming, what do I do?"

The hand being held lower than the elbow isn't representing a scenario where your hands are down. It is simply to turn off the hand and focus on the elbow rotation, so that the forearm isn't flailing around or doing anything strange leading with the wrist. It's all about unifying the step, hip/elbow, and punch (wu). But this has to do with VT fighting strategy, which DP never got to, as evidenced by his not knowing it.

When you go through the system as taught by DP, it leaves a lot to be desired and many doubts and contradictions. When you learn the system from someone who has spent proper time training with WSL, everything becomes crystal clear and there are no contradictions, and most importantly the strategy of VT is revealed (how to really speak the language), whereas before all you'd have are random application ideas (a phrasebook).

 

[wckf92]

You realize that student association was founded 15 years after the passing of WSL?!

He never authorized such a list or named any heirs. The certificates he gave out were merely a "thank you" to students, according to PB.

The founders of that association were also teens or pre-teens when WSL died. They didn't ever spend much time with WSL and learned mostly from si-hing like DP. They attempt to claim gate-keeper status over the lineage and standardize the system without really knowing it.

They also list "1st gen. students" with even far less experience than them. Low quality control, as guy b stated.

Plus, at first they wanted to charge 1st gen. students membership fees to join, but they couldn't get anyone's support. So, they awarded honorary lifetime memberships to them so that it seems as if the most senior students are all on board now with their ideas. It's a sham.



We have discussed DP's understanding of VT before you came to the forum here. It's not something I try to detail often because it's difficult to avoid causing offense when talking about deficiencies in a well-known teacher's learning.

But here goes again;

DP's interpretation of VT, the forms and everything, is all application-based. It's as if what he received from WSL during his brief visits was a phrasebook. He could put a few "words" together, but never learned to actually "speak the language", never mind fluently. He lacked the immersion experience.

An example is the so-called "paau-bong" section of Cham-kiu. His interpretation of this action is a direct application for when your hands are down and a punch suddenly comes your way, so you "throw" your bong-sau at it with wu-sau as a backup defense, using the structure as an emergency shield.

He says in application, you will actually step backward, but the form steps forward to ingrain the idea of advancing. So, basically, he's saying what we train thousands of times in the form is incorrect footwork for the application!

This is illogical and impractical, plus, he has never ever even touched on the VT fighting strategy of wu-sau. It's all application thinking. His wu-sau from SNT is a literal application drawing a punch in and off line. Wu-sau is drawn back in the form so that we can train a full fuk elbow, but he has given an application to it.

Without knowing better, you might not find these ideas problematic. But what this section of CK is actually training is abstract. It's developing synchronicity of the step, elbow rotation, and punch (kwan-sau). It is an uncompleted action that DP has given an impractical defensive application to. We're thinking develop body unity and elbow control coupled with the punch. He's thinking "uh-oh, my hands are down and a punch is coming, what do I do?"

The hand being held lower than the elbow isn't representing a scenario where your hands are down. It is simply to turn off the hand and focus on the elbow rotation, so that the forearm isn't flailing around or doing anything strange leading with the wrist. It's all about unifying the step, hip/elbow, and punch (wu). But this has to do with VT fighting strategy, which DP never got to, as evidenced by his not knowing it.

When you go through the system as taught by DP, it leaves a lot to be desired and many doubts and contradictions. When you learn the system from someone who has spent proper time training with WSL, everything becomes crystal clear and there are no contradictions, and most importantly the strategy of VT is revealed (how to really speak the language), whereas before all you'd have are random application ideas (a phrasebook).

Interesting post, thx LFJ

 

[Juany118]

You realize that student association was founded 15 years after the passing of WSL?!

He never authorized such a list or named any heirs. The certificates he gave out were merely a "thank you" to students, according to PB.

The founders of that association were also teens or pre-teens when WSL died. They didn't ever spend much time with WSL and learned mostly from si-hing like DP. They attempt to claim gate-keeper status over the lineage and standardize the system without really knowing it.

They also list "1st gen. students" with even far less experience than them. Low quality control, as guy b stated.

Plus, at first they wanted to charge 1st gen. students membership fees to join, but they couldn't get anyone's support. So, they awarded honorary lifetime memberships to them so that it seems as if the most senior students are all on board now with their ideas. It's a sham.



We have discussed DP's understanding of VT before you came to the forum here. It's not something I try to detail often because it's difficult to avoid causing offense when talking about deficiencies in a well-known teacher's learning.

But here goes again;

DP's interpretation of VT, the forms and everything, is all application-based. It's as if what he received from WSL during his brief visits was a phrasebook. He could put a few "words" together, but never learned to actually "speak the language", never mind fluently. He lacked the immersion experience.

An example is the so-called "paau-bong" section of Cham-kiu. His interpretation of this action is a direct application for when your hands are down and a punch suddenly comes your way, so you "throw" your bong-sau at it with wu-sau as a backup defense, using the structure as an emergency shield.

He says in application, you will actually step backward, but the form steps forward to ingrain the idea of advancing. So, basically, he's saying what we train thousands of times in the form is incorrect footwork for the application!

This is illogical and impractical, plus, he has never ever even touched on the VT fighting strategy of wu-sau. It's all application thinking. His wu-sau from SNT is a literal application drawing a punch in and off line. Wu-sau is drawn back in the form so that we can train a full fuk elbow, but he has given an application to it.

Without knowing better, you might not find these ideas problematic. But what this section of CK is actually training is abstract. It's developing synchronicity of the step, elbow rotation, and punch (kwan-sau). It is an uncompleted action that DP has given an impractical defensive application to. We're thinking develop body unity and elbow control coupled with the punch. He's thinking "uh-oh, my hands are down and a punch is coming, what do I do?"

The hand being held lower than the elbow isn't representing a scenario where your hands are down. It is simply to turn off the hand and focus on the elbow rotation, so that the forearm isn't flailing around or doing anything strange leading with the wrist. It's all about unifying the step, hip/elbow, and punch (wu). But this has to do with VT fighting strategy, which DP never got to, as evidenced by his not knowing it.

When you go through the system as taught by DP, it leaves a lot to be desired and many doubts and contradictions. When you learn the system from someone who has spent proper time training with WSL, everything becomes crystal clear and there are no contradictions, and most importantly the strategy of VT is revealed (how to really speak the language), whereas before all you'd have are random application ideas (a phrasebook).

Brief visit? Traveling, training and translating for a man across all of Oceania and SE Asia, being one of only 2 Instructors from Australia personally authorized to teach WSLVT by WSL himself and being selected to give the eulogy at his funeral. These facts fly in the face of a claim that he "visited briefly" with WSL sorry.

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[guy b]

A nicely vague reply, giving not a single bit of actual information in reply to a question.

I don't think information is required?

The VT of DP can be seen by looking for clips on youtube- you can compare directly with the VT of other people if you like. You can also read what he has written about the system and compare to the writings of other people.

The WSL video that I commented on doesn't contain the strategic information required to make the system work- you can tell this because it is missing (none is provided).

What else do you need?

 

[guy b]

Brief visit? Traveling, training and translating for a man across all of Oceania and SE Asia, being one of only 2 Instructors from Australia personally authorized to teach WSLVT by WSL himself and being selected to give the eulogy at his funeral. These facts fly in the face of a claim that he "visited briefly" with WSL sorry.

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LFJ: Provides info

Juany: I don't like that info. Provide different info

 

[wingchun100]

Yes, my old sifu did this in his videos and books. He called it being "clever". You show enough to get people interested, but you never give away too much. That would be what he called, "breaking your rice-bowl".

I understood the idea of not giving out certain information to people that weren't your students, by the idea of inserting deliberate errors into his videos and books seemed dishonest to me. But apparently it was a widely accepted practice among traditional Chinese sifus of the older generation.

Exactly. Why would you put out errors and make people think "wow, that looks like it wouldn't work?"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't think information is required?

The VT of DP can be seen by looking for clips on youtube- you can compare directly with the VT of other people if you like. You can also read what he has written about the system and compare to the writings of other people.

The WSL video that I commented on doesn't contain the strategic information required to make the system work- you can tell this because it is missing (none is provided).

What else do you need?

You could start with a brief explanation of what this "strategic information" would look like. Saying it's not there is like me saying, "Your car doesn't have the right colors for you. You can tell because they're not there." Unless I give you some idea what the heck those colors might be, my statement is circular.

 

[wingchun100]

Who are the better known students of WSL? I am aware of David Peterson, Philip Bayer and Gary Lam. I'm sure there are others....

Anyway, one question comes to mind when Guy and LFJ talk about the Bayer lineage and say that if you try it, it will be obvious that it is the most coherent and therefore obviously authentic system. But if that is so, wouldn't that be equally obvious to David Peterson and Gary Lam? ...Apparently not.

Well, what Leung Sheung taught must have therefore seemed pretty coherent to a man like Jack Ling. What Ip Ching teaches is coherent to Russ Cichon...and so on into infinity.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

LFJ: Provides info

Juany: I don't like that info. Provide different info

Actually: LFJ: Provides info.
Juany: Provides info that appears to conflict.

That's how a debate works. If LFJ doesn't feel Juany's information is accurate, or has a reason why that information isn't in conflict, it should be easy enough to continue the discussion. To me, the apparent contact of the long-term travel together implies there would have been more discussions and possibly training along the way, rather than just what happened during the visit(s) to his dojo. That may be a mistaken perception, and LFJ may be able to clarify it.

 

[LFJ]

These facts fly in the face of a claim that he "visited briefly" with WSL sorry.

He has said so himself! He visited about once per year when he had time over holidays, and had WSL out for a few public seminars.

Yes, he was an occasional visitor and seminar student by that frequency.

WSL spent so much more time establishing VT in Europe. He spent months there every year teaching real students, and before his death, he was in the process of moving to Germany with PB, to live above his school.

He went to Australia only a total of five times over the years for brief public seminars where he taught basic "phrasebook" ideas to people of various backgrounds.

But also ignore the technical analysis of what DP teaches in your "following of evidence" and believe what you want...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He has said so himself! He visited about once per year when he had time over holidays, and had WSL out for a few public seminars.

Yes, he was an occasional visitor and seminar student by that frequency.

WSL spent so much more time establishing VT in Europe. He spent months there every year teaching real students, and before his death, he was in the process of moving to Germany with PB, to live above his school.

He went to Australia only a total of five times over the years for brief public seminars where he taught basic "phrasebook" ideas to people of various backgrounds.

But also ignore the technical analysis of what DP teaches in your "following of evidence" and believe what you want...

That's reasonable. What of the time DP spent traveling with WSL, translating and spending time with him. Do you suppose that time included discussion and perhaps training? I would imagine if I were traveling with an instructor, we'd spend a good bit of time talking about our practices, philosophies, and the way we express the principles in the art.