Lop Da Drill

[guy b]

Any comments of any of the clips posted or discussion so far Joy?

 

[geezer]

Again, did you actually watch my video explanation? It is not as "easily countered" as you think when done outside of the drill. The drill is simply to get in lots of reps to establish good "muscle memory." From the Bong the elbow comes forward and traps the opponent's arm by pinning it above the elbow as the punch swings downward from above. It is not a "flicky" backfist at all. This makes it very difficult for them to do their own Bong as a counter. If the opponent manages to stop the Gwai Choi with their Wu hand, then the cover hand immediately flows through the opening as a rising punch to the throat or chin. If I recall, your friend Alan Lamb also teaches the Lop Da drill with a "backfist."

Gwai-Choi ...would that be a "kneeling fist"? With dropping elbow and sinking energy? If so, it would have a lot more body behind it than a mere "arm flick". In our Biu Tze form there is an arm movement like that that can have many different applications ranging from a dropping elbow, to a slip under/or around a block to a throat spear, ...and finally, to (at least in my VT) a "kneeling fist" which looks like a backfist but feels a lot heavier.

See 1:41-2 and again at 1:46 in the clip below--

 

[Vajramusti]

Any comments of any of the clips posted or discussion so far Joy?

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For now read Andrew Ma's comments:Hang Lum Andrew Ma | Facebook

Ho Kam ming doing lop sao in Macao

 

[KPM]

Gwai-Choi ...would that be a "kneeling fist"? With dropping elbow and sinking energy? If so, it would have a lot more body behind it than a mere "arm flick".

I don't speak Cantonese, but we usually translate it as "Hanging Punch" and Gwai Ma as "Hanging Stance." And you are correct! It is not an "out and back" flicky punch. It is a circular punch aimed downwards as you drop your weight. It has a lot body behind it. When I practice on B.O.B (my most loyal training partner) I can hit him with enough force that his chin touches his chest. This punch would easily break the bridge of someone's nose if landed correctly.

 

[KPM]

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For now read Andrew Ma's comments:Hang Lum Andrew Ma | Facebook

Ho Kam ming doing lop sao in Macao

I scrolled pretty far down the page and didn't see any videos. If this is embedded in one of his long posts, it would be nice if you were a little more specific.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I was taught the drill Geezer posted, pretty much verbatim, with Fook Sau instead of a Lop. It is a precursor to chi-sau and teaches some basic mechanics and responsive actions. It can be returned to and more actions / responses added in, it can be randomized and made a bit more dynamic, but it is regarded as a drill. Gor Sau and Lat Sau have more intent on application.

 

[wingchun100]

I was taught the drill Geezer posted, pretty much verbatim, with Fook Sau instead of a Lop. It is a precursor to chi-sau and teaches some basic mechanics and responsive actions. It can be returned to and more actions / responses added in, it can be randomized and made a bit more dynamic, but it is regarded as a drill. Gor Sau and Lat Sau have more intent on application.

That has always been my interpretation of it too,

 

[Lobo66]

Ho Kam Ming version of the exercise as demonstrated by Liu Ming Fai and Louisa Chow.

Is this a good representation of the drill in this lineage, Vajramusti?

 

[KPM]

^^^^ You know, that punch looks very easy to counter.

 

[guy b]

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For now read Andrew Ma's comments:Hang Lum Andrew Ma | Facebook

Ho Kam ming doing lop sao in Macao

Thanks for posting. There is some interesting chat on the facebook page but I can't find any videos unfortunately.

 

[Vajramusti]

Ho Kam Ming version of the exercise as demonstrated by Liu Ming Fai and Louisa Chow.

Is this a good representation of the drill in this lineage, Vajramusti?

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yes it is. Note the 50/50 baalnced stance, both hands working together, mabo footwork and the aim at the moving target- not a dummy.

 

[Lobo66]

There is a second short clip of the same two demonstrating some more lap sau. In both clips we can see 1) pushing against the arms, which is not going to develop the right dynamic for punching 2) a lack of agile footwork and 3) a "stilted" and "stiff" quality to the work. No dynamic flow. Which is important, I believe, in training for real fighting.

 

[wckf92]

pushing against the arms, which is not going to develop the right dynamic for punching.

@Lobo66 ...can you elaborate on the "pushing" against the arms bit? Thx

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

 

[guy b]

There is a second short clip of the same two demonstrating some more lap sau. In both clips we can see 1) pushing against the arms, which is not going to develop the right dynamic for punching 2) a lack of agile footwork and 3) a "stilted" and "stiff" quality to the work. No dynamic flow. Which is important, I believe, in training for real fighting.

To be fair it looks ike he is working with a complete beginner which may have caused what you see. I would be interested to see more from this group

 

[Lobo66]

Yes, you could be right guy b. That's the tricky thing with video. We don't always know the context. I, too, would like to see more from the group.

I see too much arm tension and "pushing" against the arms. This is not the sam as "forward intent" or "forward springy energy". The "springy" quality is missing IMO. There doesn't need to be contact between the arms at all after the lap/da meets the other's bong/wu position. There should be a tiny gap....a relaxation but with maintaining forward intent. Just like in working with the dummy.

 

[Danny T]

Ho Kam Ming version of the exercise as demonstrated by Liu Ming Fai and Louisa Chow.

Is this a good representation of the drill in this lineage, Vajramusti?

To be fair it looks ike he is working with a complete beginner which may have caused what you see. I would be interested to see more from this group

For the level at which it is being used this is good. A good partner will allow you to grow and improve and bad partner will just overwhelm you and keep you overwhelmed. A good partner will bring you up slowly increasing speed, angles, and speed as you gain the abilities. A bad partner will overwhelm you and keep you overwhelmed. Work to improve.

 

[Juany118]

I have learned in two different lineages.

In the Ip Ching lineage, the lop is a grab and pull. .

In William Cheung Lineage it's similar but more of a grab and pull, but some will call it grab and "press" instead as the movement can often be more of a pressing down, though the result can be that the opponent is pulled off balance.

Here's one of the few examples I could find online.

 

[Vajramusti]

There is a second short clip of the same two demonstrating some more lap sau. In both clips we can see 1) pushing against the arms, which is not going to develop the right dynamic for punching 2) a lack of agile footwork and 3) a "stilted" and "stiff" quality to the work. No dynamic flow. Which is important, I believe, in training for real fighting.

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Differences in perceptions. I dont know what you mean by "pushing", or "stilted". I have met both persons and rolled with them.
Lui Ming Fai has been in real fights and full contact matches in Hong Kong, Macao and SE Asia,

 

[Vajramusti]

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Differences in perceptions. I dont know what you mean by "pushing", or "stilted". I have met both persons and rolled with them.
Lui Ming Fai has been in real fights and full contact matches in Hong Kong, Macao and SE Asia,

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PS. Luis Ming Fai doing the forms

 

[Lobo66]

Well, I mean that it looks stiff, slow and un-coordinated. Not relaxed and dynamic.
Compare again to this clip :

Kudos if he's been in some full contact matches. A real venue for competition is what CMA really needs (already exists for sanda and shaui jiao, of course) to evolve.