Wong Shun Leung & Tan Sau

[Phobius]

LFJ, above post was not friendly despite the edits. Actually even by doing the edits it became slightly more offensive, maybe?

You are not even informative.

This I believe is a proper reply:
KPM, walking into an opponent with your taan sau extended without contact could in my view cause you problems.
Firstly how do you prevent yourself from losing one arm against your opponent being stuck in a taan sau position? Your opponent being a trained fighter will not charge in with his fist straight into your blocking taan. In such a case would that taan not serve better as a punch, since if the way is free you should attack?

Secondly, an extended taan sau against a powerful hit will most likely unless you are larger than your opponent cause your arm to collapse. This can be neglected I believe if your body is behind the punch but how do you prevent such a clash?

Now KPM is offered a chance to either;
A. Explain how he means, and see what points I wish for him to validate.
B. Understand my point of view and comment on it.
C. Hurl insults at me.

Most likely since I offer him a helping hand, he will be willing to continue the discussion and as such there might be some points I never considered.


Now this is what I do not do:
KPM you are so wrong! Doing it like that will get you punched for sure, and you can't fight for sure if you do not know why that is. You clearly have not tried this against anyone whatsoever and have no idea what you are talking about.

Now KPM is offered a chance to either;
A. Insult me.
B. Ignore me.
C. Argue about how I am wrong and stupid.

This is what I mean with your approach is not in any way beneficial to the forum or the discussion at its core. In order for me to learn something a friendlier approach seems to get me that information I need more often than not. Of course there are always trolls out there even in WC world that simply wants to claim their superiority without having anything to back up their words. But we here are all better than that. Or at least we all should be.

 

[LFJ]

Well, hey... If an adult can't accept brutal honesty in written form on a freaking internet forum, they should stick to learning kung-fu-online and training with their wooden dummy on their back porch pretending to be a fighter, because they aren't going to like it any better when reality hits them in the face.

I'll let him have the last word to wrap this thread up, because I can't stand that weak man-child personality much more. Y'all have fun.

 

[Phobius]

Brutal honesty on a forum is an illusion. Such a thing only exist in the head of the person who participates.

It is a shame you are leaving, I really wanted you to start becoming informative as to why you hold certain convictions. Rather than just stating your convictions over and over again. We already know what they are but you never told us how and why. Yes, I am curious and think you have some information of interest. Getting you to share anything is a pain in the butt however so far, sorry if I am being intrusive in trying to help you get those points out in the open.

Anyways the forum is a place where everyone is free to leave. But we should not call someone who constantly argues back on a forum to be weak, a weak person would never get us frustrated.

EDIT: Noone calls the person easily offended at a club, and instantly raises his fists, for weak. We call such a person many other things but not weak.

EDIT: I am also not stating you are never informative, the information I seek now is that as soon as discussion went to your approach being better, all information of your approach was kept silent. You have not shared that one bit.

 

[KPM]

Well, hey... If an adult can't accept brutal honesty in written form on a freaking internet forum, they should stick to learning kung-fu-online and training with their wooden dummy on their back porch pretending to be a fighter, because they aren't going to like it any better when reality hits them in the face.

I'll let him have the last word to wrap this thread up, because I can't stand that weak man-child personality much more. Y'all have fun.

You're leaving!?? I hate to say it....but we are all better for it! Because if an adult can't figure out how to behave properly in social settings to avoid ticking everyone off, then they should avoid social settings. You must be that guy that everyone hates in class but has to tolerate because Sifu won't say anything. We all know the type....the "know-it-all" that wants to correct everyone else and play Sifu when he is just a junior guy in class. You know, the guy that only half-way pays attention to the lesson because he thinks he knows it already. You know, the guy that has to speak up and interject into every conversation to correct people in class. You know, they guy that thinks he knows more than he does, and everyone else realizes it but him!

 

[KPM]

KPM, walking into an opponent with your taan sau extended without contact could in my view cause you problems.

---Agreed! And I wouldn't walk into an opponent with my Tan Sau extended!

Firstly how do you prevent yourself from losing one arm against your opponent being stuck in a taan sau position? Your opponent being a trained fighter will not charge in with his fist straight into your blocking taan.

---Of course he wouldn't! Remember, this was LFJ's picture that was posted as an example, not mine. He called it "inefficient" and "indirect" and I was simply trying to explain a situation where it wouldn't be "inefficient" and "indirect." And that situation would be against someone throwing a wide punch...like a untrained person throwing a haymaker, or a Choy Lit Fut person throwing a "Pow" (at least I think that's what's called?) The two people may have already engaged once and are "in range." One of them steps back for whatever reason to "reset." The Wing Chun guy is ready to move back in and has his hands up. As he steps forward to punch (because he is already in range)...perhaps with some angling on his footwork....he sees that wide punch coming in his peripheral vision so his rear hand automatically comes up to cover it AS he is punching. If his punch connects before the opponent's strike meets his Tan, it may never even make contact because he has stopped the person in progress....or it may continue swinging because it already has momentum and the Tan Sau keeps it from making even trivial contact....or the opponent may step back and angle just enough that your punch is not as effectively as you would have hoped and the opponent's strike is still coming with force. But because your Tan is up you are covered. Or....he may back off just enough and covert his wide high punch to a lower punch in route and you simply switch your Tan to a Gan and continue moving in with your punch. As has already been pointed out, real fighting is a fluid situation and you have to be prepared for the unexpected. And you can see, I'm not saying to just extend that Tan out while punching "just in case". I'm saying he saw that a punch was coming at the same time that he moved in for his own punch and the Tan came up automatically to cover him. Because despite any footwork or angling, if you are close enough to hit the opponent...the opponent is close enough to hit you! Another choice would be to Pak in with the lead hand to pin his arm and break his structure as you punched with your rear hand. This would disrupt his balance and structure enough to render that wide punch insignificant. There are always options!

---But our Wing Chun guy is covering himself or defending against a wide punch that he does not have contact with and therefore does not have control over. And he is doing that AS he is striking with the lead hand. His rear hand is not back passively as the other is punching. His rear hand is "in play" defending WHILE he punches. To me this is "direct" and "efficient." Even if I used footwork and angling so that I had the advantage and made it more difficult for the opponent to land that wide punch, I would still have the rear hand in play to protect me. NOT extended as a Tan Sau necessarily. But it may very well convert to a Tan Sau....or a Biu Sau...or a Gan Sau as the situation dictates.


In such a case would that taan not serve better as a punch, since if the way is free you should attack?

---The lead hand is already punching! You can't punch with both hands at once very well! Now, the very next beat after the Tan Da has struck the opponent and stopped that wide punch may very well be another step into the opponent with a punch from the "Tan" hand!


---Another question was asked: "why wouldn't you keep the rear hand close to the face for protection?" Well, as I pointed out, I would! I'm wouldn't close in with an extended Tan just for the heck of it! The Tan only goes out because a wide punch was detected AS the Wing Chun guy was punching. So the better question would be..."why wouldn't you KEEP your rear hand close to your face for protection?" Ever try to defend against a hard wide punch with just a cover ....like a boxer does....without gloves? That can be just as risky as using the Tan. As you note below, a powerful hit that can collapse a Tan could certainly blast through a high cover. And a collapsing high cover is much closer to your face than a collapsing Tan!



Secondly, an extended taan sau against a powerful hit will most likely unless you are larger than your opponent cause your arm to collapse. This can be neglected I believe if your body is behind the punch but how do you prevent such a clash?

---This is true! And in this situation I think I would likely use a Biu Sau rather than a Tan Sau. But remember, this was LFJ's picture, not mine! And sometimes things just don't go as planned. Maybe a Biu Sau would be a better choice, but the "brain fart" factor kicks in and you end up doing a Tan Sau. That does not mean it is "inefficient" or "indirect." And....our Wing Chun guy could have chosen a better angle....one that would take some of the power out of that wide punch.

 

[Transk53]

Suppose there is a fine line between trolling and being a troll hunter as it were. It is really annoying that members like LFJ start threads, or just reply with the intent of peeing members off. I was tempted to mention Mothercare (it was a shop for pre and toddler and up clothes and stuff), but that would meant trolling as well.

Like to add that I have started threads especially asking that it is kept to discussion only, but alas there was always one to grease up the guns. Perhaps with the multitude Ip Man films have created a decisive element to anybody wanting to take up the art, which has manifested with certain people thinking that Pan Nam is superior to WT and what not. Perhaps there is some rivalry. That is fine, but being so close minded is completely stupid IMHO. I post for the purpose of learning. Yes I pee people off sometimes, but there is no malice intended, and I apologise. Is LFJ big enough to do that, from above post no.

Anyway I guess that is the difference with the likes of KPM having trained other arts, against the likes of LFJ training one art. That is not a problem either, the problem is constantly regurgitating the same point about Tan Sau. If the OP point does not work, then one recovers and tries for another opening. That opening does not to explained per se. That for me was the intent of the post. I could be wrong here obviously, but if Wing Chun failed in that instant, then adapt. Perhaps LFJ should try some sparring himself or her. Sparring is not drilling, sparring is what it is, albeit a very quick forum for ideas. Also a verbal spar is not trolling, but a same exchange of ideas and points. Not for the closed minded.

 

[LFJ]

Anyway I guess that is the difference with the likes of KPM having trained other arts, against the likes of LFJ training one art.

Who told you I train one art? I train/ have trained a number of TCMAs across Mainland China.

Perhaps LFJ should try some sparring himself or her.

You read KPM's last post about scenarios where he'd stop CLF bombs with a magic punch, or reactively throw up a taan-sau mid attack when he sees something in his peripheral, and then still be quick enough to change it to gaang-sau to chase the opponent's hand all around... and you think I need to try some sparring? LMFAO!



As was said earlier, serious people will seek out more intelligent methods.

There's a private message function if anyone else wants to talk to me.

 

[Transk53]

Who told you I train one art? I train/ have trained a number of TCMAs across Mainland China.




You read KPM's last post about scenarios where he'd stop CLF bombs with a magic punch, or reactively throw up a taan-sau mid attack when he sees something in his peripheral, and then still be quick enough to change it to gaang-sau to chase the opponent's hand all around... and you think I need to try some sparring? LMFAO!



As was said earlier, serious people will seek out more intelligent methods.

There's a private message function if anyone else wants to talk to me.

That does not mean ****. The art of fighting is reserved for those that know how. Get over yourself. Linage means ****. Intelligent methods, you clearly do not get what that means. You are addressing people that have been in the mix. Just stick to Mothercare before you get hurt

 

[VT_Vectis]

Who told you I train one art? I train/ have trained a number of TCMAs across Mainland China.



You read KPM's last post about scenarios where he'd stop CLF bombs with a magic punch, or reactively throw up a taan-sau mid attack when he sees something in his peripheral, and then still be quick enough to change it to gaang-sau to chase the opponent's hand all around... and you think I need to try some sparring? LMFAO!



As was said earlier, serious people will seek out more intelligent methods.

There's a private message function if anyone else wants to talk to me.

Mate your posts aren't doing wsl lineage any favours. WSL stayed out of politics and let his personal VT speak for its self. I suggest you do the same or risk sounding like the followers of a certain "traditional" student of Ip Man who resides in Australia.

Like the man said, there are no secrets to wsl VT; just keep it Simple, Efficient, and Direct.

 

[guy b.]

That does not mean ****. The art of fighting is reserved for those that know how. Get over yourself. Linage means ****. Intelligent methods, you clearly do not get what that means. You are addressing people that have been in the mix. Just stick to Mothercare before you get hurt

I think KPM may have (PC edit: unintentionally and entirely innocently misled) you?

Please consider the possibility that Jackie Chan style reactive blocking to incoming strikes with hands far from your chin is not the most realistic approach

On a more serious note, LFJ made no lineage claims, he merely stated that he cross trains when you accused him of not doing so for some reason.

 

[Transk53]

I think KPM may have (PC edit: unintentionally and entirely innocently misled) you?

Please consider the possibility that Jackie Chan style reactive blocking to incoming strikes with hands far from your chin is not the most realistic approach

On a more serious note, LFJ made no lineage claims, he merely stated that he cross trains when you accused him of not doing so for some reason.

You are barking up the wrong tree here matey. I did wonder when you would pipe up. Suffice to say, be a bit more intelligent and come at me with something more than Jackie Chan. That is just pathetic, and disrespectful to the answers given to LFJ by members.

 

[KPM]

At about 1:40 there are some Tan Da's being done as part of "circle training." This is Duncan Leung's "Applied Wing Chun" which I'm sure is very different from WSLVT. This is not sparring, but if you watch the whole thing you can see that these guys train with plenty of realistic intensity. "Covering" is one of the key features that Duncan Leung emphasizes. You can see that in the circle training. I'm not part of Duncan Leung's lineage, but I have trained it this way at times. I'm sure Larry and his boys would laugh in your face if you told them that Tan Da was "inefficient" and "indirect" and accused them of never really trying it in sparring.

 

[guy b.]

You are barking up the wrong tree here matey. I did wonder when you would pipe up. Suffice to say, be a bit more intelligent and come at me with something more than Jackie Chan. That is just pathetic, and disrespectful to the answers given to LFJ by members.

Ok, remove "Jackie Chan style" from the above reply. Please respond and don't call me matey. Thanks

 

[guy b.]

At about 1:40 there are some Tan Da's being done as part of "circle training." This is Duncan Leung's "Applied Wing Chun" which I'm sure is very different from WSLVT. This is not sparring, but if you watch the whole thing you can see that these guys train with plenty of realistic intensity. "Covering" is one of the key features that Duncan Leung emphasizes. You can see that in the circle training. I'm not part of Duncan Leung's lineage, but I have trained it this way at times. I'm sure Larry and his boys would laugh in your face if you told them that Tan Da was "inefficient" and "indirect" and accused them of never really trying it in sparring.

This is pre-arranged attacks and half speed 1 or 2 step sparring. It is (PC edit unlikely to be effective) because it bears no relation to the reality of actual fighting. It is a comfortable abstraction.

 

[Transk53]

Ok, remove "Jackie Chan style" from the above reply. Please respond and don't call me matey. Thanks

Whatever man, you have a nice night being whatever lol.

 

[guy b.]

Whatever man, you have a nice night being whatever lol.

You sound like a (PC edit: person of below average intelligence (no disrespect intended, society is a rainbow of differently gifted individuals). Enjoy your day at whatever level you can fully appreciate it).

 

[guy b.]

Mate your posts aren't doing wsl lineage any favours. WSL stayed out of politics and let his personal VT speak for its self. I suggest you do the same or risk sounding like the followers of a certain "traditional" student of Ip Man who resides in Australia.

Like the man said, there are no secrets to wsl VT; just keep it Simple, Efficient, and Direct.

Where is Vectis?

 

[dudewingchun]

Guy b seems to think there is only 1 way to fight. Any other way is wrong. No point continuing arguing with him and LFJ , just a waste of time.

 

[Transk53]

You sound like a (PC edit: person of below average intelligence (no disrespect intended, society is a rainbow of differently gifted individuals). Enjoy your day at whatever level you can fully appreciate it).

Ooh, you do have a pair then. Mmm, insulting peoples intelligence. Dear oh dear, that matey, is just so wrong. Anyway be a good dear and have you're nappy change.

 

[Transk53]

Guy b seems to think there is only 1 way to fight. Any other way is wrong. No point continuing arguing with him and LFJ , just a waste of time.

He is about to change his nappy.