Wing Chun vs MMA

[LFJ]

---Uh...."Wing Chun" is Cantonese...."Yong Chun" is Mandarin for the exact same characters. They are the same words. So its more than "sound alike", they are the same thing!

They aren't the same thing.

The characters we use are 詠春. The characters for the county White Crane comes from are 永春.

You can scratch #5 off your list.

In the videos posted you can spot a lot of techniques shared with Wing Chun like Tan Sau, Biu Sau, Bong Sau (which some lineages even refer to as a "Crane's Wing block") Fook Sau, etc. You can see footwork and stances that are similar as well.

I can find those same shapes/actions in Northern styles too. All it suggests is that it was created by another human. #3 scratched.

Points #1 and #2 are fiction, unless they point to a common historical figure, scratched and scratched.

#4 was evidence of connection? What? ...Scratched.

That leaves you with only #6, and at least according to Judkins; scratched.

 

[Vajramusti]

I have no idea about what YM said to these guys. But I do know that the wing chun produced by some of them is not very good, to put it mildly.

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I have no idea about what YM said to these guys. But I do know that the wing chun produced by some of them is not very good, to put it mildly.

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Silly underinformed generalization

 

[KPM]

I've addressed your points on taan-sau and answered each question you've raised. What have I missed? Or have you forgotten now that you have taken on a new identity and side in this whole discussion?

You've missed a lot! Let me see if I can summarize it. Let's just take the Tan Sau all by itself to simply things.

The basic question that you haven't really addressed is why would Ip Man teach only Wong Shun Leung the idea that the Tan Sau is only for training the elbow and is not to be used as a defensive movement? Because all other students of Ip Man that I have come across interpret Tan Sau as a defensive movement. You could say that guys in his public class that didn't really get much personal attention may have missed it and gotten the wrong understanding. But how do you explain the fact that Ip Man didn't teach this idea of Tan Sau to the men that were closest to him and spent the most time with him. How do you explain that Ip Man didn't teach the correct idea of Tan Sau to the very people that he knew were going to establish schools and represent his name and the good name of Wing Chun? How do you explain the fact that this idea of Tan Sau was not taught to close senior students of Ip Man like Ho Kam Ming, Tsui Tsun Ting, Leung Sheung, Wang Kiu, ....or his own sons Ip Ching and Ip Chun?

I've brought this up several times now and you kind step around it without really answering it. You've pointed to other people saying Ip Man was a bad teacher. Maybe so, but I just don't buy that as a reason for not teaching something so basic to anyone but Wong Shun Leung. You've pointed to Wong Shun Leung reportedly telling someone else that he learned this from Ip Man and can't say why others didn't. But you weren't there to hear him say that and neither was I. Both of these points are based upon heresy and "sifu sez."

You talked about common sense and Occam's Razor. I still say that the simplest explanation and the most common sense explanation for why Wong Shun Leung taught this interpretation of Tan Sau and no one else does....is simply because Wong Shun Leung came up with that interpretation himself! It seems pretty straight-forward to me. But you haven't adequately answered why this wouldn't be the case.

 

[KPM]

The characters we use are 詠春. The characters for the county White Crane comes from are 永春.

You can scratch #5 off your list.

---Nope. The characters for "Wing" or "beautiful" and "Weng" or "everlasting" have pretty much been used interchangeably through the years. More than one account says that "Weng" was the original version and it was changed later by Leung Jan. At some point, Chan Wah Shun or his son even changed it back to "Weng" for their particular branch.



I can find those same shapes/actions in Northern styles too. All it suggests is that it was created by another human. #3 scratched.

---Nope. Like I said. Its a gestalt. You have to take the sum total into account. Show me a single northern style that shares ALL of those common elements with Wing Chun.


Points #1 and #2 are fiction, unless they point to a common historical figure, scratched and scratched.

---Nope. I stated that the stories were likely fiction. But the fact the that such similar stories were used for both White Crane and Wing Chun suggests a connection of some sort is possible.

#4 was evidence of connection? What? ...Scratched.

----Haven't you been paying attention? Guy has repeated over and over that since that power generation methods are different that they couldn't possibly be related. #4 points out why that is not necessarily true.

That leaves you with only #6, and at least according to Judkins; scratched..

---Nope. I said only that this points to another overlap and possible connection between Wing Chun and White Crane.

---I didn't say any of this was proof of anything. I pointed out that my list simply suggested connections between White Crane and Wing Chun. You can choose to believe that these suggested connections are enough to posit that Wing Chun developed from a "proto-White Crane" or not. But you cannot discount the fact that these suggested connections exist.

 

[guy b.]

Uh...."Wing Chun" is Cantonese...."Yong Chun" is Mandarin for the exact same characters. They are the same words. So its more than "sound alike", they are the same thing!

Yes they sound the same. They don't necessarily mean the same, as LFJ already addressed.

I pointed out that Lee Man Mao was part of the Taiping Uprising but the Wikipedia article you found didn't mention him. You then asked for a source. I provided a source explaining how Lee Man Mao and the Red Turbans were part of the Taiping Uprising.

As I said this story doesn't connect minor rebel LMM to wing chun or even to white crane in any way. What does this person have to do with this topic?

Wing Chun's own origin stories and legends talk about Ng Mui seeing a fight between a Snake and a Crane and being inspired to create Wing Chun. The stories talk about Ng Mui being a resident of the White Crane temple. While these are just stories, the old legends sometimes have a nugget of truth to them and are actually metaphorical. So this suggests a possible connection to White Crane. I mentioned this before.

This is addressed very well by Judkins who debunks it thoroughly. It is a 20th C fabrication, as are most or all such stories. The trashy novel containing the wing chun origin story has even been identified, I believe.

The story of Yim Wing Chun and Ng Mui is practically the same as White Crane's own origin story. They are likely both fictional. But this could also suggest a connection, or at least that whoever decided to take White Crane's story and adapt it to Wing Chun may have done so because THEY saw a connection. And of course they were closer in history to it all than we are!

They are both modern fabrications along the same lines. Haven't you noticed this trend in nearly all Southern Chinese MA? Again Judkins blows this out of the water in the article you linked to or comments after it

White Crane has evolved and developed over time into several branch systems. But if you look at the version that is considered to be closest to the "ancestral" White Crane, it has a lot of similarities to Wing Chun. In the videos posted you can spot a lot of techniques shared with Wing Chun like Tan Sau, Biu Sau, Bong Sau (which some lineages even refer to as a "Crane's Wing block") Fook Sau, etc. You can see footwork and stances that are similar as well. Now again, these may not be very similar to WSLVT! But WSLVT is not the standard by which all Wing Chun is judged! These things from White Crane tend to be more similar to the mainland China versions of Wing Chun like Pin Sun and Yuen Kay Shan WCK.

Wing chun doesn't work by hand shapes, and neither does white crane. Both are conceptually based systems which are very specifically delineated. You need to talk about conceptual similarity if you want to talk about similarity. LJF addressed this point very well.

I am interested to know how you think white crane works in reality? Can you describe it please, and identify why you think such an approach to combat is similar to the one taken by wing chun?

Fukien White Crane and Wing Chun may not share the same power generation mechanics, but they have had 150 years of divergent development and evolution. To me, that is plenty of time to come up with different power generation mechanics or different "engines.

Neither do they share conceptual similarities. In which case, even if wing chun did derive from some proto-white crane, any comparison would be meaningless since they no longer share any important thing. In this case it would be more interesting to look at why wing chun is different, not which fragments might remain.

The whole name of the version of White Crane thought to be closest to the "ancestral" Crane style includes the words "Yong Chun" which is simply the mandarin version of "Wing Chun" and is the same characters in Chinese.

It is the place of origin. Why would you assume this had anything to do with the wing chun system?

The Wing Chun stories say that several of the ancestors were Red Boat Opera performers. The Red Boat Opera performers were highly involved in the Taiping Rebellion.

Virtually all Southern Chinese systems identify themselves as being anti Qing. It is part and parcel of the origin legends. As Judkins discusses in the post above, there is no reason to assume that these are anything more than stories tacked on at a later date.There are no historically verifiable Opera performers that did wing chun. There is no historical link to Red Boats. If anything wing chun is a system associated with the landed gentry and to moneyed merchant classes. Why would such people have anything to do with the Taiping rebellion?

Lee Man Mau was a Red Boat performer documented in Chinese history that started his own spin off "Red Turban" rebellion that drew a large number of its members from the Red Boat performers. Lee Man Mau was a White Crane guy and said to have trained his followers in that style. So we have both newly developing Wing Chun and an older version of White Crane both associated with the Red Boat Opera performers at the same era in history.

I haven't read anything historcally credible that identifies Lee Man Mau as a white crane practitioner (notwithstanding the fact that white crane as a named martial arts style likely did not exist at that time). I haven't read any historically verifiable info linking wing chun to Opera performers.

I'm sure I can come up with other possible connections that could suggest that White Crane and Wing Chun were related given time.

You haven't come up with any credible connections

Like I said before, one has to just look at the "most likely" based on available evidence and then decided what to believe.

White crane is not likely, see above

And after that, one should continue to remain a bit skeptical and open to other evidence and theories that come along

I am completely agnostic about the origins of wing chun. I don not think that you are.

Like your pole theory. That started out interesting, but I will point out that the ONLY evidence you provided for your theory that Wing Chun is derived from the pole methods was a short description of 7 pole concepts stated by Wong Shun Leung.

I can only suggest that you try WSL wing chun.

 

[guy b.]

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Silly underinformed generalization

I have done a few different versions of wing chun. I haven't seen anything that worked before I saw WSL wing chun.

If you have functional wing chun then please show or discuss.

 

[Vajramusti]

I have done a few different versions of wing chun. I haven't seen anything that worked before I saw WSL wing chun.

If you have functional wing chun then please show or discuss.

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I don't have to show you a thing. You and LFJ seem to floating in an ego swirl.
Cheers and bye.

 

[KPM]

I am completely agnostic about the origins of wing chun. I don not think that you are.

----That's funny! I seem to recall you distinctly stating that Wing Chun was derived from the Pole in no uncertain terms like it was fact!


White crane is not likely, see above

----I can only assume that, once again, you weren't paying very close attention. So I will refer you to post #124 where I have already answered pretty much everything you bring up. But I will state again, just for the record:

I didn't say any of this was proof of anything. I pointed out that my list simply suggested connections between White Crane and Wing Chun. You can choose to believe that these suggested connections are enough to posit that Wing Chun developed from a "proto-White Crane" or not. But you cannot discount the fact that these suggested connections exist.

 

[guy b.]

You've missed a lot! Let me see if I can summarize it. Let's just take the Tan Sau all by itself to simply things.

The basic question that you haven't really addressed is why would Ip Man teach only Wong Shun Leung the idea that the Tan Sau is only for training the elbow and is not to be used as a defensive movement? Because all other students of Ip Man that I have come across interpret Tan Sau as a defensive movement. You could say that guys in his public class that didn't really get much personal attention may have missed it and gotten the wrong understanding. But how do you explain the fact that Ip Man didn't teach this idea of Tan Sau to the men that were closest to him and spent the most time with him. How do you explain that Ip Man didn't teach the correct idea of Tan Sau to the very people that he knew were going to establish schools and represent his name and the good name of Wing Chun? How do you explain the fact that this idea of Tan Sau was not taught to close senior students of Ip Man like Ho Kam Ming, Tsui Tsun Ting, Leung Sheung, Wang Kiu, ....or his own sons Ip Ching and Ip Chun?

You are being disingenuous or forgetful in your argument again. Several people did address this thoroughly earlier in the thread. You are just re-asserting your original argument and not replying to the criticisms of it.

You talked about common sense and Occam's Razor. I still say that the simplest explanation and the most common sense explanation for why Wong Shun Leung taught this interpretation of Tan Sau and no one else does....is simply because Wong Shun Leung came up with that interpretation himself! It seems pretty straight-forward to me. But you haven't adequately answered why this wouldn't be the case.

It is very unlikely that WSL came up with a such a conceptually coherent, perfectly designed, and yet beautifully simple system all by himself, from the morass of contradictory and non-functional nonsense that was YM wing chun, if that is indeed what is reflected in the teaching of the other wing chun I have tried. A more simple explanation is that WSL simply learned YM wing chun. Other people might also have learned it- I have not experienced all of wing chun.

 

[guy b.]

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I don't have to show you a thing. You and LFJ seem to floating in an ego swirl.
Cheers and bye.

Why bother even adding this to the thread?

 

[KPM]

[You are being disingenuous or forgetful in your argument again. Several people did address this thoroughly earlier in the thread. You are just re-asserting your original argument and not replying to the criticisms of it.

---"several people"? Its you and LFJ. That's hardly "several people"!! Earlier in this thread? Thoroughly addressed? Are you sure you are in the right forum? All you and LFJ have managed to say is that someone told you Ip Man was a poor teacher and didn't teach everyone the same, and that someone said that WSL said he learned his Tan Sau idea from Ip Man and can't explain why others didn't learn it the same way. Oh....and you both managed to say that everyone's Wing Chun other than WSL is total crap. Anyway......Just how does that refute anything I've said or constitute "criticisms" of what I've said?


It is very unlikely that WSL came up with a such a conceptually coherent, perfectly designed, and yet beautifully simple system all by himself,

---That's your opinion. I think you've underestimated Wong Shun Leung.

 

[guy b.]

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I don't have to show you a thing. You and LFJ seem to floating in an ego swirl.
Cheers and bye.

You also don't have to post on the forum to tell me that you still aren't going to bother typing anything meaningful. Just remaining quiet will convey the same info

 

[guy b.]

Thoroughly addressed? Are you sure you are in the right forum? All you and LFJ have managed to say is that someone told you Ip Man was a poor teacher and didn't teach everyone the same

People have made comments about YM's teaching style. This is information we have.

someone said that WSL said he learned his Tan Sau idea from Ip Man and can't explain why others didn't learn it the same way.

There is an easy explanation for why the tan of WSL is different from the tan of person x. The same explanation also explains why the tans of other people are also different. Two different defensive actions are still different. Only one explanation fits the facts.

Oh....and you both managed to say that everyone's Wing Chun other than WSL is total crap.

I have never said that. I have said that some wing chun I have experienced has not been good. That is all.

Anyway......Just how does that refute anything I've said or constitute "criticisms" of what I've said?

It answers what you said and provides a simpler explanation for it, your misrepresentations notwithstanding

That's your opinion. I think you've underestimated Wong Shun Leung.

It isn't a matter of opinion; it is one of probability. It is simply more unlikely that WSL managed what is usually the work of several generations by himself, than YM not being a diligent teacher, especially given evidence about his teaching style. But if WSL was in fact a superhuman genius who reformulated WC from something awful into something incredibly efficient and simple, while also incredibly profound, then good for him. Well done. I would never have believed it.

 

[guy b.]

Nope. Like I said. Its a gestalt. You have to take the sum total into account. Show me a single northern style that shares ALL of those common elements with Wing Chun.

Please explain your understanding of how white crane functions

 

[guy b.]

I am completely agnostic about the origins of wing chun. I don not think that you are.

----That's funny! I seem to recall you distinctly stating that Wing Chun was derived from the Pole in no uncertain terms like it was fact!


White crane is not likely, see above

----I can only assume that, once again, you weren't paying very close attention. So I will refer you to post #124 where I have already answered pretty much everything you bring up. But I will state again, just for the record:

I didn't say any of this was proof of anything. I pointed out that my list simply suggested connections between White Crane and Wing Chun. You can choose to believe that these suggested connections are enough to posit that Wing Chun developed from a "proto-White Crane" or not. But you cannot discount the fact that these suggested connections exist.

This is an incredibly weak answer given the work I did in replying to your claims about lee man mau, Taiping rebels, white crane and other nonsense. Again you appear to be a basically dishonest person.

 

[KPM]

This is an incredibly weak answer given the work I did in replying to your claims about lee man mau, Taiping rebels, white crane and other nonsense. Again you appear to be a basically dishonest person.

Calling me a liar again? For the third time? Ok. That's it. I'm done trying to have any kind of discussion with you. You've proven to be not only a poor conversationalist, but basically not worth even talking to.

 

[guy b.]

Calling me a liar again? For the third time? Ok. That's it. I'm done trying to have any kind of discussion with you. You've proven to be not only a poor conversationalist, but basically not worth even talking to.

When you avoid following up on answers to your points which show you to be wrong then that is dishonest. I wouldn't say you are a liar, that's too strong a word. Your dishonesty is more passive than that. Call it cowardice maybe?

 

[geezer]

When you avoid following up on answers to your points which show you to be wrong then that is dishonest. I wouldn't say you are a liar, that's too strong a word. Your dishonesty is more passive than that. Call it cowardice maybe?

C'mon Guy, can't you disagree without making it personal, using terms like dishonest and cowardice? You may feel KPM is mistaken, even stubborn in his supposed misconceptions, but let's keep it polite.

BTW, I don't even believe Keith ever said he personally believed that White Crane was the ancestor to WC, he just entertained that it was a plausible theory. I said as much, and Judkins, in his article, expressed a similar position. Honestly, it's beginning to look like the three main WSL posters on this forum (you, LFJ and T-Ray) are hostile to everybody else. That's a shame, and I hope you prove me wrong in the future.

 

[KPM]

^^^^T-Ray is a good guy. I wouldn't lump him in with LFJ and Guy.

 

[geezer]

Oh, one more thing. In English, the word "art" can be applied to the largely subjective category of "fine art" and it can also be used to describe the functional skills of a craftsman when taken to the highest level of sophistication as, for example, in describing the "art" of smithing, carpentry, ceramics, etc. "Art" when used in this latter sense, has virtually the same meaning as the Cantonese term "gung-fu" i.e. the mastery or skill resulting from hard work. Used in this sense, the word art describes Wing Chun quite accurately, including what I have seen of WSL VT.

This is of concern to me as a person who has worked as an artist and a craftsman, received the terminal degree in the field, an M.F.A. and who has spent nearly a quarter of a century teaching the art and craft of ceramics.