Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Yoshiyahu]

I see some faults in what your saying?


Wing Chun is already a Mixed Martial Arts...

BJJ is just grappling or wrestling...Ground Fighting is just Wrestling right...Well Ground fighting has existed before Wing Chun did right?
BJJ has existed how long? I think someone said 1993..Well Wing Chun would have been exposed to ground fighting way before it even came to America...You got Judo,Monkey Fighting,Sanda,JuiJitsu,Aikido, Hapkido and many other Arts Ancient WC masters fought and sparred with in the past to prove Wing Chun Works...An many masters defeated those wrestlers...
So its not BJJ that has changed Wing Chun...BJJ Fighters have changed their Brazilian Jitjisu according to Wing Chun and Muay Thai. Boxing has not changed because of BJJ...BJJ has changed because of boxing. It is seeking ways to counter these styles. So it has to adapt a standing game to succeed. But Wing Chun already had Grappling with in it...Not all styles deal with Grappling but its in there...From the time you grab a leg or arm or hips or thigh...Wing Chun has had ways to advoid or counter those moves. Some Sifu's only teach the kicking and punching aspect...But hidden with in the forms there are all the answers for you. Also if you have a skilled Sifu to go over with you how to apply Wing Chun Techniques on the ground or standing grappling.

Wing Chun in China has not changed...So BJJ has no impact on Wing Chun...


Okay BJJ originates from Judo and Japanese Juijitsu

Wing Chun actually days back to 1800's. At which time over the years various masters fought all types of fighters including japanese and chinese and Tawianese and Thai. Wing Chun has Take Downs and throws. Wing Chun has anti Chin Na and Grappling.

It mainly deals with fighting standing up. But if you go to ground. You have the basic blocks to use...Fist strikes. Trapping hands and grappling hands techniques to use. You can chain punch the face which doesn't require one to drag back the Arms...Wing Chun even has chokeholds or neck grabs.

Here is statement about Wing Chun Sifu Wong using Throws:

"Another time the amazing Danny, a Thai kickboxer who was a foreign student from Thailand was sparring with my kung fu brother, Choi. Danny whipped his kick to Choi's head in a flash. It was Choi's first day in training. Danny turned around and challenged Sifu. Most of us had not expected it to happen so quickly. We couldn't what Sifu did. All we saw and heard was Danny's body slamming into the floor with a strong bang. Sifu explained what he did later. He said he used the throw from Bil Jee form, and he also said grandmaster Sum Neng had used the same throw once in a Hong Kong seminar, except the result was much more dramatic. At the time, a student had raised doubt about Wing Chun's throwing application. He challenged Sifu. As a result, that student landed on his head and passed out. He probably never figured out what hit him."

Another Time Sifu Wong Fights a Wrestlers

"Once I witnessed him substituting at a noisy kung fu class for a friend of his in college. At that time he was 19 years old. He picked the biggest volunteer in the class and dropped him in a flash. That was the first time he met wrestling champion (8 times) Mr. Gloss. The whole class of fifty people were shocked. You could hear a pin drop!"

The Guy talking has studied Hapkido, Jujitsu, JKD and Karate Here is his full account: http://wingchunkf.com/jkdvswingchun.htm

This guy who also has some Jujitsu experience said this:

"He told me that practicing the forms alone would not make me understand the priciples and applications of Wing Chun. He also tested my sensitivity with his hands attached to mine. I was not able to sense or block his punches. Even though he had told me in advance where he would try to hit me. He did the same thing to every one I knew. It puzzled that I couldn't do the same thing he did to me. Out of frustration and curiosity, I suggested we go under a freeway for an all out sparring match. Since I was at my prime physical state, ten years older, heavier and bigger than him, I thought I had every bit of an advantage of winning the sparring contest. But in no time I became his punching bag. It went beyond my power and comprehension that he could generate such power and throw me in every direction. All I could see was the sky turning upside down. There was a blackout and from there on I couldn't remember a thing. Afterwards, he explained to me in depth about sensitivity and "yee"...intention and chi, trapping is only the beginning portion of sticky hands in Wing Chun Kung Fu. "

I will end here...But Wing Chun has went up against Wrestlers and Ground fighters before and won. Although this guy was a grand master...So alot can be said from that...Mainly alot experience!

Whether the Wing Chun practitioner cross trains in BJJ, or the WC practitioner adapts his/her training to address the threat that BJJ poses, BJJ has made the art and the artist better.

I'm not sure why, si-je, you have such a chip on your shoulder for BJJ or for those who train and enjoy it. You do, though, so there it is. Getting away from whether or not BJJ is effective, or whether or not anti-grappling works, can you at least admit that BJJ has changed WC? The very fact that anti-grappling has been developed specifically to address the threat that lutadors and other grapplers pose is a testament to the effectiveness of BJJ and other styles of grappling.

So, addressing the original post, grappling and the threat of being taken to the ground must be tackled by the practitioner (haha... tackled... get it?). If we can agree on that, then it's a matter of discussing what's the best approach. Anti-grappling or actually studying a grappling art.

I personally believe that the best way to counter a technique is to learn the technique. Anti-grappling, IMO, is a misnomer. It's just grappling. To counter grappling, one must learn to grapple.

As for what works and what doesn't, my opinion is that it depends upon how one trains. If you train BJJ in a vacuum, never spar or pressure test the techniques, and never move past drills, BJJ would be functionally inneffective. It's not the art. The techniques are sound in BJJ, but only if they're trained effectively. My opinion is that other arts are the same. If you train WC in a vacuum, never pressure test the "anti-grappling" against proficient, competent grapplers, than the techniques have little chance of success. Conversely, if the techniques are pressure tested and trained well, chances of success go up.

In conclusion, I personally feel that your clear bias for WC over other arts and clear bias against BJJ as inferior to all other arts muddies the waters. Whether or not you admit it, BJJ has changed WC. As I said before, the very fact that "anti-grappling" exists demonstrates the truth of this.

Edit to add: I have never, and never intend to, mock or make fun of anyone's martial art. I have nothing against WC/WT or any other style as a whole. I get very, very tired of interesting threads devolving into an anti-bjj/mma bickerfest. And trolling isn't disagreeing. There is a big difference.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Your Welcome....

Thank you Yoshi!
The styles I've taken for the record in order of when I took them, again: Tang Soo Do (3 years), Goshin Ju-Jitsu (3 years), Wu Wai Kung fu (6 months), TaiJi (very little though), Go Ju Ryu Karate (before it merged with Kempo 6months), Kali (6 months) KenJitsu (1 year) Japanese weapons (3 years), and now, Wing Chun (4 years).

 

[Yoshiyahu]

What are the basic principals of BJJ?

Wow, I'm no expert in either BJJ or WC but I have studied both and I think you don't realize the depth and difficulty in BJJ! The subtleties of position and the detailed strategies would appeal to a WC person, I think. It takes much longer to be recognized as an expert in BJJ by one's peers than in WC, in my experience.

I much preferred WC, but BJJ adds something very useful.



Thanks for posting!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...


I also agree with you in getting black belt first before you start taking on a new art?

Atleast this way you have proficency in your art and strong foundation that you can mesh a new art with the Wing Chun....


Wing Chun is a great art for inside fighting...Jeet Kune Do is great art for ground fighting and outside fighting. I think the two of those mesh together would work great in the ring!

I have studied other arts and none come to compare to WC/WT, but then again to each there own. One thing I have learned from where I live and being a Marine, it is not the style you fight with but the will to survive. When I fight, I do not fight to win, I fight to hurt. One way or another, I am going take down the person who threatens me or my family and therefore they will think twice before messing with me again.

So whether it is BJJ, Karate, Street Fighting, or Wing Chun, it is up to the individuale and how much heart they have to survive in a confritation. A peron can be skilled in an art but still have no heart or courage to face there adversary.

When it comes down to it, I will gouge your eyes, twist your nuts, bite your ears ect..., it is all about survival.

 

[Si-Je]

Beautiful post Yoshi!

 

[jarrod]

So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...


I also agree with you in getting black belt first before you start taking on a new art?

Atleast this way you have proficency in your art and strong foundation that you can mesh a new art with the Wing Chun....


Wing Chun is a great art for inside fighting...Jeet Kune Do is great art for ground fighting and outside fighting. I think the two of those mesh together would work great in the ring!

black belts mean different things in different arts. in my style of jujitsu (shingitai) our coach tells us that it's roughly equivelant to graduating high school. you have a basic education, but you're no professor. now in bjj it means something different; i'm not a bjj guy so i'll let someone else answer that. but most bjj people have said that blue belt signifies a general knowledge of the basics.

so in light of black belts having different meanings, i disagree that you must get a black belt before you branch out. but i do agree that it is a bad idea to cobble together bits & peices from various styles without really understanding one in any depth. you have to have a strong base, whatever it is.

jf

 

[Hand Sword]

So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...


I also agree with you in getting black belt first before you start taking on a new art?

Atleast this way you have proficency in your art and strong foundation that you can mesh a new art with the Wing Chun....


Wing Chun is a great art for inside fighting...Jeet Kune Do is great art for ground fighting and outside fighting. I think the two of those mesh together would work great in the ring!

That's because Bruce Lee was a Wng Chun student first. Also, this argument could prove against yours. JKD came about because from fighting, Bruce realised things were lacking or missing--hence the birth of JKD. He was also studying wrestling and grappling, judging from his books and accounts of his friends and training partners.

Not trying to offend or get into it in here. I have neither sufficient expertise in either style, though I've incorporated things from both. I think both sides have made valid arguments, when the personal stuff was left alone. :asian:

 

[Yoshiyahu]

There was a clever reason I mention Jeet Kune Do...You are Correct JKD incorporates the basic principals of Wing Chun, Sensitivity from Wing Chun and Wooden man drills from Wing Chun along with aspects of Sil Lim Tau hidden in two man drills. But Bruce Lee also merged with WC. Kicks from northern shaolin and He also utilizes steps or footwork from boxing and fencing. As well as a couple of punches from boxing. Along with that He also adds Judo. Which he learn from one his co-instructors he selected. He picked up western boxing too.

But as for the reason why Jun Fan had to fill in the gaps...Was because he didn't have the entire system of Wing Chun. He also had noted birth defect. So many of traditional Horse stance and arrow stance found in Tai Chi he couldn't do. But he successful defeated many people using Wing Chun and his Wu Style Tai Chi....

Error Tai Chi was actually his first style not Wing Chun. He Learn Wing Chun from age 13 to 18. But partially due to mix hertiage through his mother side He didn't get the entire system of Wing Chun. But he was a great fighter. An what he didn't get from Wing Chun He got from the West. He was a fighter...He was only interested in learning the Fighting Aspect of WC...Not so much second form or third form...The JKD system doesn't even have forms...

So Bruce had a leg shorter than other which made his stance work lacking...So incorportated boxing stance for power and fencing steps for fluidity. He had to keep moving because his leg structures. So why not adapt to whats more advantageous to you. In fact all Wing Chun Grandmasters have done this making their Forms and Wing Chun differ from others who came before them...

But Lee's not have the whole system doesn't mean WC was lacking on the contrary...Wing Chun is boxing Art so why add boxing punches an strategy...Simple...Take what works...if I am fighting an MMA guy...i too will switch from Wing Chun to Boxing...to Kick Boxing to Aikido to Judo if I can get the move off....I may even throw in some strikes I learn from Tai Chi and Tiger and Crane. I will use Wing Chun Steps for power and leverage I will use Bagua steps to circle or flank my opponent and I will use Boxing hand strategy and steps as well to confuse my opponent...

I will use the bridge in Wing Chun...i will fight inside...or fight outside like kick boxing...i will use no bridge and give my opponent nothing to feel as well. So it depends...I switch in instant for my best advantage...why stay stactic?

Nothing wrong with Grappling Styles...Wing Chun also has grappling as well as sticky legs...Thats why Chi Sau is teaching you. Grappling and Trapping standing up.

Ground fighting in WC. Not everyone teaches but its there!

That's because Bruce Lee was a Wng Chun student first. Also, this argument could prove against yours. JKD came about because from fighting, Bruce realised things were lacking or missing--hence the birth of JKD. He was also studying wrestling and grappling, judging from his books and accounts of his friends and training partners.

Not trying to offend or get into it in here. I have neither sufficient expertise in either style, though I've incorporated things from both. I think both sides have made valid arguments, when the personal stuff was left alone. :asian:

 

[Steve]

I see some faults in what your saying?


Wing Chun is already a Mixed Martial Arts...

I guess that depends upon your definition of the term. Bruce Lee felt that it was necessary to move beyond his WC roots and train in a variety of styles including Greco Roman Wrestling and Judo.

BJJ is just grappling or wrestling...Ground Fighting is just Wrestling right...Well Ground fighting has existed before Wing Chun did right?

Ground fighting's been around a long time. True.

BJJ has existed how long? I think someone said 1993..

Not quite right. I said that 1993 was a pivotal year for martial arts throughout the world. That was the year the first UFC was held in which a relatively small guy defeated a multitude of martial artists and street fighters by taking them to the ground.

BJJ itself has been around since the early 1900's, a very close cousin to Judo and direct descendant to traditional jujutsu from Japan. As a traditional art, it is as well established as many of the modern styles of Karate, TKD and many other "traditional martial arts."

Well Wing Chun would have been exposed to ground fighting way before it even came to America...You got Judo,Monkey Fighting,Sanda,JuiJitsu,Aikido, Hapkido and many other Arts. Ancient WC masters fought and sparred with in the past to prove Wing Chun Works...An many masters defeated those wrestlers...

Just so I'm clear, are you guessing here?

So its not BJJ that has changed Wing Chun...BJJ Fighters have changed their Brazilian Jitjisu according to Wing Chun and Muay Thai.

I think you misunderstood my point. My point wasn't that BJJ is the ultimate art. My point was that UFC 1, in 1993, demonstrated that the conventional wisdom of the 20th century to that point, that "I don't need grappling because if a grappler tries to take me to the ground I will [insert deadly technique here]" was shown to be flawed. Strikers, come to find out, NEED to address grappling. BJJ (via the Gracie family) just happened to be the style of grappling with the combination of moxy, skill and entrepenurial spirit to organize a venue large enough and with enough visibility to make this clear. UFC 1 changed martial arts training world wide.

Boxing has not changed because of BJJ...BJJ has changed because of boxing. It is seeking ways to counter these styles. So it has to adapt a standing game to succeed. But Wing Chun already had Grappling with in it...Not all styles deal with Grappling but its in there...

Not sure I follow this one. Could you explain to me how "anti-grappling" came to be. Maybe I don't understand the history of it.

From the time you grab a leg or arm or hips or thigh...Wing Chun has had ways to advoid or counter those moves. Some Sifu's only teach the kicking and punching aspect...But hidden with in the forms there are all the answers for you. Also if you have a skilled Sifu to go over with you how to apply Wing Chun Techniques on the ground or standing grappling.

Wing Chun in China has not changed...So BJJ has no impact on Wing Chun...

BJJ or some other style of grappling. Once again, I'm not alleging that BJJ is the ultimate. BJJ, Judo, Sambo, or some other style of grappling/ground fighting. Take your pick.

Okay BJJ originates from Judo and Japanese Juijitsu

Wing Chun actually days back to 1800's. At which time over the years various masters fought all types of fighters including japanese and chinese and Tawianese and Thai. Wing Chun has Take Downs and throws. Wing Chun has anti Chin Na and Grappling.

Once again, maybe I don't understand WC history, but my impression is that anti grappling is a relatively new discovery/application of WC concepts.

 

[Steve]

What are the basic principals of BJJ?

In 100 words or less? I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I'd say one of the fundamental principals of BJJ include positional dominance (ie, "position before submission") with a heirarchy of positions on the ground.

There is a strong culture of pressure testing techniques and training in what is now commonly referred to as "alive" training, emphasizing three stages of training: introduction, isolation and incorporation. The incorporation part is trained through open sparring and often in competition.

There is an emphasis on personal ownership of one's training and development, as well as the development of one's personal style. Everyone is different. The goal isn't to make my technique exactly like the black belt who's teaching me. Rather, the result is the goal. It's not what my armbar looks like. Instead, it's whether my armbar works.

We can get further into concepts like base, leverage, dead angles and weight distribution, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. Let me know. Ultimately, I think the original post was suggesting that these concepts are somewhat universal, and therefore could lend themselves to some crosstraining.

So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...

Once again, I think you're misunderstanding. BJJ is complex, as is any grappling art (most striking arts, as well). The point wasn't that BJJ was harder; rather, it's not easy.

As for the 3 year marker, I'd say that regardless of what style you train, HOW you train will have more to do with how proficient you are after 3 years. I'd put my money on a 3 year grappler over a 3 year WC'er for skill and proficiency, but again, that would depend upon how the WC'er trains.

Also, because of how BJJ is taught, the results are remarkably consistent. Anyone who sticks with it, barring gross physical or mental impairments, will improve. If you stick with it long enough, training consistently, you will get better. I'm not a particularly gifted athlete, but I train consistently and get better each month. Women can do it. Men of all sizes can do it. Fat guys and thin. Bruce Lee would have been great at it, even with a short leg.

There was a clever reason I mention Jeet Kune Do...You are Correct JKD incorporates the basic principals of Wing Chun, Sensitivity from Wing Chun and Wooden man drills from Wing Chun along with aspects of Sil Lim Tau hidden in two man drills. But Bruce Lee also merged with WC. Kicks from northern shaolin and He also utilizes steps or footwork from boxing and fencing. As well as a couple of punches from boxing. Along with that He also adds Judo. Which he learn from one his co-instructors he selected. He picked up western boxing too.

So, you're saying that Bruce Lee cross trained because of a birth defect and for no other reason? I'm not sure where you're headed with that post.

 

[Steve]

black belts mean different things in different arts. in my style of jujitsu (shingitai) our coach tells us that it's roughly equivelant to graduating high school. you have a basic education, but you're no professor. now in bjj it means something different; i'm not a bjj guy so i'll let someone else answer that. but most bjj people have said that blue belt signifies a general knowledge of the basics.

so in light of black belts having different meanings, i disagree that you must get a black belt before you branch out. but i do agree that it is a bad idea to cobble together bits & peices from various styles without really understanding one in any depth. you have to have a strong base, whatever it is.

jf

I think that's about right. I put a purple belt in BJJ solidly on par with 1st dan/1st degree black belt in most other styles I'm aware of. This is based upon what stylists from other arts have described to me here and in other places. A blue belt is at least equivalent to a brown belt in other styles, having trained on average for between 1 and 2 years. A purple belt usually takes 3 to 4 years of consistent training. I'm trying to err solidly on the conservative side, as I've seen some blue belts who are outstanding martial artists.

 

[jarrod]

I think that's about right. I put a purple belt in BJJ solidly on par with 1st dan/1st degree black belt in most other styles I'm aware of. This is based upon what stylists from other arts have described to me here and in other places. A blue belt is at least equivalent to a brown belt in other styles, having trained on average for between 1 and 2 years. A purple belt usually takes 3 to 4 years of consistent training. I'm trying to err solidly on the conservative side, as I've seen some blue belts who are outstanding martial artists.

we have to generalize when we talk about ranks in different styles, but my assistant coach (shingitai & judo 1st dan) just got back from vacation where he trained at a bjj school. based on his experience, that adds up. he was give & take with the purple belts on the mat. a black belt in sjj takes about 4-5 years of consistent training to get.

there is another jjj style i was researching (name escapes me at the moment) but they said it took only about 2 years to get your black belt. but you couldn't teach their style until you had your 4th degree black belt. so once again, rank is a bit relative to the style.

jf

 

[Hand Sword]

There was a clever reason I mention Jeet Kune Do...You are Correct JKD incorporates the basic principals of Wing Chun, Sensitivity from Wing Chun and Wooden man drills from Wing Chun along with aspects of Sil Lim Tau hidden in two man drills. But Bruce Lee also merged with WC. Kicks from northern shaolin and He also utilizes steps or footwork from boxing and fencing. As well as a couple of punches from boxing. Along with that He also adds Judo. Which he learn from one his co-instructors he selected. He picked up western boxing too.

But as for the reason why Jun Fan had to fill in the gaps...Was because he didn't have the entire system of Wing Chun. He also had noted birth defect. So many of traditional Horse stance and arrow stance found in Tai Chi he couldn't do. But he successful defeated many people using Wing Chun and his Wu Style Tai Chi....

Error Tai Chi was actually his first style not Wing Chun. He Learn Wing Chun from age 13 to 18. But partially due to mix hertiage through his mother side He didn't get the entire system of Wing Chun. But he was a great fighter. An what he didn't get from Wing Chun He got from the West. He was a fighter...He was only interested in learning the Fighting Aspect of WC...Not so much second form or third form...The JKD system doesn't even have forms...

So Bruce had a leg shorter than other which made his stance work lacking...So incorportated boxing stance for power and fencing steps for fluidity. He had to keep moving because his leg structures. So why not adapt to whats more advantageous to you. In fact all Wing Chun Grandmasters have done this making their Forms and Wing Chun differ from others who came before them...

But Lee's not have the whole system doesn't mean WC was lacking on the contrary...Wing Chun is boxing Art so why add boxing punches an strategy...Simple...Take what works...if I am fighting an MMA guy...i too will switch from Wing Chun to Boxing...to Kick Boxing to Aikido to Judo if I can get the move off....I may even throw in some strikes I learn from Tai Chi and Tiger and Crane. I will use Wing Chun Steps for power and leverage I will use Bagua steps to circle or flank my opponent and I will use Boxing hand strategy and steps as well to confuse my opponent...

I will use the bridge in Wing Chun...i will fight inside...or fight outside like kick boxing...i will use no bridge and give my opponent nothing to feel as well. So it depends...I switch in instant for my best advantage...why stay stactic?

Nothing wrong with Grappling Styles...Wing Chun also has grappling as well as sticky legs...Thats why Chi Sau is teaching you. Grappling and Trapping standing up.

Ground fighting in WC. Not everyone teaches but its there!

I meant that 1st he did wing chun before the JKD, not first as in overall experience. Also, since he trained WC for years I'm sure he got the system, since you said it takes about 1 to 3. Another thing, anyone who knew him or saw him attested to his outstanding knowledge, capabilities, and skills.

Bottom line, he felt that he had to change Wing Chun because of lacking areas. Since he did a lot of fighting, and trained harder than anyone (arguably) very few could out measure him on the subject at hand.

The WC had to change. Don't take it personal, ALL OF THE SYSTEMS HAVE CHANGED (as you pointed out, even BJJ) through the years. Why? They lacked something according to the views of the founders. So, now, there's eclectic styles over the TMA's. Don't like them? p God bless, practice yours and enjoy.

As I said I don't want to get into this with you or anyone else.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I believe it was documented that Jun Fan didn't have the entire system. An also it is documented that he had malformative...Which is why he adopted the footwork of fencing...Really there is no perfect style..you have to comform to that style..Some people have an easier time comforming to another style than others...It depends on you and your body..some people are naturally better kicks others are naturally better boxers...Bruce Lee adopted his style to be able to adapt to western fighters. So he mixed it up...Which is what one should do in fighting anyway..


But the main thing is he had some level of proficency in WC before he learn judo...meaning he learn WC for about five years then later on he picked up a little judo.

I meant that 1st he did wing chun before the JKD, not first as in overall experience. Also, since he trained WC for years I'm sure he got the system, since you said it takes about 1 to 3. Another thing, anyone who knew him or saw him attested to his outstanding knowledge, capabilities, and skills.

Bottom line, he felt that he had to change Wing Chun because of lacking areas. Since he did a lot of fighting, and trained harder than anyone (arguably) very few could out measure him on the subject at hand.

The WC had to change. Don't take it personal, ALL OF THE SYSTEMS HAVE CHANGED (as you pointed out, even BJJ) through the years. Why? They lacked something according to the views of the founders. So, now, there's eclectic styles over the TMA's. Don't like them? p God bless, practice yours and enjoy.

As I said I don't want to get into this with you or anyone else.

 

[Hand Sword]

I believe it was documented that Jun Fan didn't have the entire system. An also it is documented that he had malformative...Which is why he adopted the footwork of fencing...Really there is no perfect style..you have to comform to that style..Some people have an easier time comforming to another style than others...It depends on you and your body..some people are naturally better kicks others are naturally better boxers...Bruce Lee adopted his style to be able to adapt to western fighters. So he mixed it up...Which is what one should do in fighting anyway..


But the main thing is he had some level of proficency in WC before he learn judo...meaning he learn WC for about five years then later on he picked up a little judo.

Do you? Or is the system supposed to serve you?

Your arguing two opposite points here. Conform or adapt? Which is it?

As all of the TMA's have done. Which is the real point of discussion of this particular thread. Again, if you feel that WC doesn't need the "help" that's your view, God Bless, and keep training.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I am not saying Jun Fan only trained because of birth defect...But that was the reason he realize he was too slow...He needed something to bridge the gap...He was always finding new ways to be better fighter...Nothing wrong with that. Wing Chun is a system...It allows for additions I agree with you...But I am saying once you have proficency in BJJ...then try to develop your WC or Vice Versa...Don't try both at the same time...

It could be rather confusing do both...

But Jun Fan cross train to bridge the gap because he felt he should be able to defeat an opponent alot faster. Actually Chinese Martial Arts have ground fighting. So If Jun Fan had really discovered all of the WC I am sure he would have discovered how to use it against a wrestler with out playing a wrestlers game?

Stevebjj said:

Once again, maybe I don't understand WC history, but my impression is that anti grappling is a relatively new discovery/application of WC concepts.

The Term Anti grappling is new English word yes. But Grappling in the Wing Chun System is not a new term...

Chinese Terms: http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html

Day ton bok gek = ground fighting

Toi dit = take downs

Toi dit chi sau = takedowns in chi sau

Bak gek = sparring

Chi sun = body sticking

Kum la = joint locks


Chinese Judo or Wrestling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_Jiao

Wikipedia says:

Shuai Jiao, a wrestling style originating in China, is arguably the most ancient of all Chinese martial arts, with a reported history of over 4,000 years. (The date may be legendary, but wrestling was reportedly used by the Yellow Emperor during his fight against the rebel Chih Yiu and his army in 2697 BC.) During these matches, the combatants reportedly wore horned helmets that they used to gore their opponents while using a primitive form of grappling.

*Now Judo and Jiujitsu have been around for awhile. Shunai Jiao existed long before Wing Chun. So when the WC system was devised it had to incorporate every possible scenario in a fight. For many of founding Father's had to make contact with Ground fighters and take down experts in their lifetime. WC has been on the planet too long to not have this experience. Also on the other board concerning BJJ I address in my Lineage some of Wing Chun Sifu's who encountered wrestlers. In fact Sum Nung students was a wrestler. Now Wing Chun doesn't have all the ground techniques. But it has basic self defense and ground removal and escape tactics. It has basic throws. May be not all 300 throws from Judo but it has some. Now Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every kick that is done in China but it has many low kicks. Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every hand strike or punch but it does have some.

*Jujutsu was first developed by Samurai. The Term Jututsu wasn't established until the 17th century. The Japanese have always been in China. So you know Gung Fu men had to have had fights with the Japanese and learn to adapt to their styles of Karate and Judo. So Wing Chun a Newer system would incorporate fighting strategies to combat many styles including ground fighting.

Now under the Yuen Kay San Lineage there is a sifu named Kwok Wan Ping.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_kwokwanping.html

wok Wan-Ping (Guo Yunping) was born in the late 1939. He studied for 4 years at the Guangzhou and Wuhon Sports Institutes and went on to win the All-China lightweight wrestling championship during that time. At the institute, he studied Mongolian, freestyle, and Greco-Roman wrestling. He also learned weight lifting, fencing, and other Chinese martial arts.

Oh an then I forgot about Mongolian Wrestling. Yes, I forgot. These are all different schools of fighting the Chinese would have to fight. So in reality. They did have some experience against these arts. Which already made Wing Chun quite diverse before the advent of Brazilian Jujitsu in the 1900's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_wrestling

Disclaimer:Some Wing Chun Lineages do have Ground Fighting Not all but some. All Wing Chun is not created equal!

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen absolutely contains groundfighting since it's a Shaolin based art. Chin Na is one of it's major components which includes ground work. Being Buddhist in origin many groundfighting techniques are done from a seated or lotus posture. Many body movements and escapes are taught within the seated meditation techniques. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com)

In 100 words or less? I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I'd say one of the fundamental principals of BJJ include positional dominance (ie, "position before submission") with a heirarchy of positions on the ground.

There is a strong culture of pressure testing techniques and training in what is now commonly referred to as "alive" training, emphasizing three stages of training: introduction, isolation and incorporation. The incorporation part is trained through open sparring and often in competition.

There is an emphasis on personal ownership of one's training and development, as well as the development of one's personal style. Everyone is different. The goal isn't to make my technique exactly like the black belt who's teaching me. Rather, the result is the goal. It's not what my armbar looks like. Instead, it's whether my armbar works.

We can get further into concepts like base, leverage, dead angles and weight distribution, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. Let me know. Ultimately, I think the original post was suggesting that these concepts are somewhat universal, and therefore could lend themselves to some crosstraining.Once again, I think you're misunderstanding. BJJ is complex, as is any grappling art (most striking arts, as well). The point wasn't that BJJ was harder; rather, it's not easy.

As for the 3 year marker, I'd say that regardless of what style you train, HOW you train will have more to do with how proficient you are after 3 years. I'd put my money on a 3 year grappler over a 3 year WC'er for skill and proficiency, but again, that would depend upon how the WC'er trains.

Also, because of how BJJ is taught, the results are remarkably consistent. Anyone who sticks with it, barring gross physical or mental impairments, will improve. If you stick with it long enough, training consistently, you will get better. I'm not a particularly gifted athlete, but I train consistently and get better each month. Women can do it. Men of all sizes can do it. Fat guys and thin. Bruce Lee would have been great at it, even with a short leg. So, you're saying that Bruce Lee cross trained because of a birth defect and for no other reason? I'm not sure where you're headed with that post.

 

[dungeonworks]

...Ultimately, I think the original post was suggesting that these concepts are somewhat universal, and therefore could lend themselves to some crosstraining...

That's exactly what I was asking rather than suggesting. Thanks Steve.

 

[seasoned]

When an art is referred to as complete, it is not considered to contain all aspects of all arts. It is enough to study one art in a life time, let alone 2-3. Any old traditional art, will have aspects of other arts, within it’s teachings. Okinawan GoJu is a traditional art, as is W/C. I can’t speck for W/C, but I can speck of my art, and the parallels that exist. We have hit 135 posts, which would constitute a great thread, except for the numerous warnings. Within these posts each side is defending their chosen art, which makes for great conversation. The broad picture is, old arts had a base that constituted their given art. The smaller picture is these founders, did in fact, cross train and incorporate other techniques, into their art, to make it complete, or in their eyes a “complete art”. Any complete art will contain four basic categories of fighting techniques, hand striking, kicking, wrestling, and Qin na/ chin na. As arts of survival, born out of lawless times, this is what was needed to defeat someone that was trying to destroy you. As we know, it was at this time kata was also born, so as to preserve all this information, and not lose it. Now as modern day practitioners we are left to decipher these kata. It was said in some posts that we should stay with one art, and build a strong base, before experimenting with other arts. From here I can speck from experience in that I studied Okinawan GoJu for many years, and along the way, made friends from others arts. As we interacted with each other, much like we are doing here at MT, we began to see techniques emerge that were similar to certain moves that we did faithfully in kata, for many, many years, but had no idea what they meant. When I first studied kata, my Sensei didn’t mention throws within the kata, why, did he know they were there, or was he holding back, so as not to interfere with the training or learning process. I don’t know. But they are there along with much more. This post is long because we are at 136 or so posts, but the constant theme has been the same, who’s art is better, or who can defeat who. Bottom line is all arts contain all aspects of defense, it is only when we make a sport out of it, that it becomes other then it’s intended purpose. Give grapplers some strikes and kicks, and give W/C some grappling, and let the games begin, or do they already have these techniques???

 

[KamonGuy2]

Woah woah! I go away for a couple of days and people are fighting and getting warned by moderators!!

Dudes, we are here to chat. It is great that everyone is so passionate but I think the truth of it is that no matter how good your opinion is, you are never going to win everyone over

I remember a guy who came down to our kwoon who said that he could kick my head faster than I could punch him. He would not accept that he might be wrong. So I said to him please show me.
Let's just say he was wrong.

I am always open minded enough and can sympathise with chunners who don't want to do grappling. But please please don't be foolish enough to argue that you will never get taken to the floor. Standing at different sides of a ring/octagon and going at it is different to a bar brawl where it can just explode.

The Cheung vs Boztepe always comes up in these arguments and for good reason. You have a supposedly seasoned 'grandmaster' of an art that will never go to ground, and in a couple of seconds the 'fight' goes to ground. Yes it was a sham, but displayed very clearly that even the most traditional of wing chun masters needs a ground game

The extension to BJJ is simply that BJJ is a very very good grappling art. It is not perfect, but it uses many concepts that wing chun itself prides itself on.

All I would say is that go and give BJJ a try, whether it be at a seminar or beginners class, and you will get a very good idea of what we are discussing.

We are not trying to take something away from wing chun, instead we want to add to it and make it stronger. Don't mix up your arts, but have arts in standby
Don't fear something new,but understand its principles and use it where it can be used

Peace out

 

[Steve]

I am not saying Jun Fan only trained because of birth defect...But that was the reason he realize he was too slow...He needed something to bridge the gap...He was always finding new ways to be better fighter...Nothing wrong with that. Wing Chun is a system...It allows for additions I agree with you...But I am saying once you have proficency in BJJ...then try to develop your WC or Vice Versa...Don't try both at the same time...

It could be rather confusing do both...

But Jun Fan cross train to bridge the gap because he felt he should be able to defeat an opponent alot faster. Actually Chinese Martial Arts have ground fighting. So If Jun Fan had really discovered all of the WC I am sure he would have discovered how to use it against a wrestler with out playing a wrestlers game?

Stevebjj said:

The Term Anti grappling is new English word yes. But Grappling in the Wing Chun System is not a new term...

Chinese Terms: http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html

Day ton bok gek = ground fighting

Toi dit = take downs

Toi dit chi sau = takedowns in chi sau

Bak gek = sparring

Chi sun = body sticking

Kum la = joint locks


Chinese Judo or Wrestling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_Jiao

Wikipedia says:


*Now Judo and Jiujitsu have been around for awhile. Shunai Jiao existed long before Wing Chun. So when the WC system was devised it had to incorporate every possible scenario in a fight. For many of founding Father's had to make contact with Ground fighters and take down experts in their lifetime. WC has been on the planet too long to not have this experience. Also on the other board concerning BJJ I address in my Lineage some of Wing Chun Sifu's who encountered wrestlers. In fact Sum Nung students was a wrestler. Now Wing Chun doesn't have all the ground techniques. But it has basic self defense and ground removal and escape tactics. It has basic throws. May be not all 300 throws from Judo but it has some. Now Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every kick that is done in China but it has many low kicks. Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every hand strike or punch but it does have some.

*Jujutsu was first developed by Samurai. The Term Jututsu wasn't established until the 17th century. The Japanese have always been in China. So you know Gung Fu men had to have had fights with the Japanese and learn to adapt to their styles of Karate and Judo. So Wing Chun a Newer system would incorporate fighting strategies to combat many styles including ground fighting.

Now under the Yuen Kay San Lineage there is a sifu named Kwok Wan Ping.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_kwokwanping.html

Oh an then I forgot about Mongolian Wrestling. Yes, I forgot. These are all different schools of fighting the Chinese would have to fight. So in reality. They did have some experience against these arts. Which already made Wing Chun quite diverse before the advent of Brazilian Jujitsu in the 1900's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_wrestling

Disclaimer:Some Wing Chun Lineages do have Ground Fighting Not all but some. All Wing Chun is not created equal!

Thanks, I'm very familiar with Shuai Jiao and Mongolian Wrestling. It seems to me that For WC to in some way claim to own Shuai Jiao is like Western Boxing to in some way lay claim to Catch as Catch Can. Once again, I am no expert. My understanding is that Shuai Jiao is its own discreet martial system having little to nothing to do with WC.

I also want to be clear that I'm not referring to warriors from bygone eras. I think it's interesting to talk about the roots and origins of fighting styles. The traditional Japanese roots of BJJ and its journey through South America are interesting to me. I also enjoy hearing about the history of WC. I am not sure that I can agree, however, that modern practitioners of any art can claim ownership through osmosis of the practical experience of long dead masters. What I mean is, if YOU want to effectively defend yourself aginst a ground fighter, YOU have to gain personal experience with ACTUAL groundfighters.

if you train the techniques as Emin demonstrates in his video, against unrealistic techniques, you'll be very sad when/if you ever see an actual guard pass.