Wing Chun Boxing

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sure. But once the boxer has seen that a couple of times, the foot sweeper is going to be eating a stiff rear punch as the boxer just lifts his leg to avoid the sweep and moves right in!

Most boxers don't feel comfortable with "foot sweep". The reason is simple. They like to put weight on their leading leg. To escape a foot sweep require training. They just don't spend enough time in those training. Ever MA style have weakness. IMO, one of the boxing weakness is to "escape a foot sweep".

 

[KPM]

Most boxers don't feel comfortable with "foot sweep". The reason is simple. They like to put weight on their leading leg. To escape a foot sweep require training. They just don't spend enough time in those training. Ever MA style have weakness. IMO, one of the boxing weakness is to "escape a foot sweep".

Yeah John, I agree. Any fighting style facing something that is unfamiliar is going to have a problem. The first UFC events proved that! But what I have been talking about is boxing as a martial art, not as current ring sport. I have been saying that it wouldn't take much to familiarize a boxer with defending his legs, just like it didn't take much to familiarize kickboxers with defending against a takedown when MMA was getting going. It is not a big stretch to make boxing "martial", especially when adding insights and methods from an art like Wing Chun. After all, that's what this thread (minus they typical wanderings and side discussions) has been about....Wing Chun Boxing.....as a martial art.

 

[drop bear]

Did Victor Belfort do it by accident, or did he train this drill daily?

This is why it's important to train:

- 2 steps 1 punch,
- 3 steps 1 punch.

Many MA systems don't train these.

The interest question is, if these kind of training does not exist in your MA system and your teacher has never taught you these kind of training, will you be able to figure it out all by yourself?

I had trained "1 step 3 punches" since I was 11. One day I figured out, if I can train "1 step 3 punches", may be I should also train:

- 1 step 2 punches,
- 1 step 1 punch,
- 2 steps 1 punch,
- 3 step 1 punch.

Until when I was 14, I trained the long fist "Tan Tui" and "3rd road Pao Chuan", I then realized that "3 steps 1 punch" does exist and I did not create it myself.

Cross stepping is fairly common. It is setting up that cross step that everybody seems to miss.

Now we get this forwards intention stuff from chun. Which is wrong as an absolute for entries.

 

[drop bear]

Double post.

 

[drop bear]

And end up with a weighted and/or exposed lead leg all the time.

VT doesn't need changing for that because it was developed with leg kicks in mind, without protective rules allowing it to behave dangerously as if legs cannot be a target.

The lead leg is a tricky concept though as it is always a compromise. There are extremes of boxing where leg kicks are very effective.

Like these super wide almost straight leg stances.

Thai has the floating front leg which is supposed to be the best method for intercepting kicks.

Dutch muay thai has a heavier front leg to engage hands better.

And MMA has a heavier again front leg to stop takedowns.

Wrestling of course is heavier again.

It depends what methods you want to employ to what sacrifices you will make.

Wether VT,s leg kick defence method works at all. We really don't know. So in discussing methods to adopt wing chun it is generally better to stick with proven methods.

 

[LFJ]

So in discussing methods to adopt wing chun it is generally better to stick with proven methods.

Western Boxing has proven uniquely vulnerable to leg kicks.

"Wing Chun Boxing" is mixing two methods that have this same weakness.

 

[KPM]

Western Boxing has proven uniquely vulnerable to leg kicks.

"Wing Chun Boxing" is mixing two methods that have this same weakness.

And Wing Chun/VT has never been proven to work consistently at all in any kind of competition. Except maybe a Chi Sau competition! At least no one doubts boxing's ability to fight! Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Wing Chun/VT! Boxing is a time-tested and proven fighting method. Adaptable to many situations. After all, boxing became kickboxing when kicks were added. And kickboxing became MMA when grappling was added. Like I said....from a martial arts standpoint I can take a boxer and teach him how to deal with the typical kicks he might encounter in a street/self-defense situation.....including leg kicks. I'm not worried about training professional fighters that are going to be able to compete with the best Thais. Are you?

 

[LFJ]

And Wing Chun/VT has never been proven to work consistently at all in any kind of competition. Except maybe a Chi Sau competition! At least no one doubts boxing's ability to fight! Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Wing Chun/VT!

You should just do boxing then. Why mix it with something that probably doesn't work?

boxing became kickboxing when kicks were added. And kickboxing became MMA when grappling was added.

MMA doesn't work like kickboxing, and kickboxing doesn't work like boxing. Fundamental changes had to be made.

Put Mayweather in the cage with McGregor and he'd probably get smeared in a matter of seconds. The result would be even more drastic for amateurs.

from a martial arts standpoint I can take a boxer and teach him how to deal with the typical kicks he might encounter in a street/self-defense situation.....including leg kicks.

It's not just a matter of a couple blocks. It affects how you move and every step you take in the fight.

 

[drop bear]

Western Boxing has proven uniquely vulnerable to leg kicks.

"Wing Chun Boxing" is mixing two methods that have this same weakness.

Dutch kick boxing has adapted the boxing stance to be less vulnerable to leg kicks. And is a method that is proven against elite fighters.

The weakness isn't in the stance. It is more there are not methods to address the issue. So as you are adding concepts you just either learn to catch,check or just punch them really hard when they kick you.

Wing chun boxing has no ground work either. So you just bolt on some wrestling concepts.

 

[KPM]

You should just do boxing then. Why mix it with something that probably doesn't work?

---I already addressed that question higher up in this thread.


MMA doesn't work like kickboxing, and kickboxing doesn't work like boxing. Fundamental changes had to be made.

--- I said boxing is adaptable.....that it was adapted to kickboxing and MMA. Kickboxing started out as "Full Contact Karate." Then they quickly realized that western boxing had a much better punching and defensive structure. So the "Karate" part was dropped, western boxing was adapted to the kicking and the rules and "kickboxing" was born.


Put Mayweather in the cage with McGregor and he'd probably get smeared in a matter of seconds. The result would be even more drastic for amateurs.

---Sure. But take a much younger Mayweather and teach him what goes on in the cage and how to prepare for it and he wouldn't have many problems. His boxing would become adapted for that situation, but it would still be boxing.....with the addition of some kicking and grappling.


It's not just a matter of a couple blocks. It affects how you move and every step you take in the fight.

---Sure. But the basic boxing will still be there. See, the problem is that you practice something that is so rigid in its thinking that you can't imagine anyone doing something that is actually somewhat flexible and adaptable to different situations.


----Oh, and remember this video of "pure WSLVT"? At about the 2 minute mark.....these guys look pretty "forward-weighted" to me!

---Relatively "forward-weighted" in this vid as well. So your criticisms of boxing seem a bit off to me

.

 

[geezer]

I have to disagree with you, KPM.

I am not at all convinced that LFJ practices something "so rigid in it's thinking...". Doesn't Sean's group (VT Lille) practice pretty much the same system as LFJ? They don't seem hampered by overly rigid thinking. Maybe the rigidity of thought you noted comes from the individual rather than the system?

 

[wckf92]

Doesn't Sean's group (VT Lille) practice pretty much the same system as LFJ?

I don't think so. Same lineage (WSL) perhaps...but different schools of thought on it's interpretation.

 

[KPM]

I have to disagree with you, KPM.

I am not at all convinced that LFJ practices something "so rigid in it's thinking...". Doesn't Sean's group (VT Lille) practice pretty much the same system as LFJ? They don't seem hampered by overly rigid thinking. Maybe the rigidity of thought you noted comes from the individual rather than the system?

Well, maybe so. But I'm also not convinced that LFJ practices the same thing as Sean and his guys. LFJ seems to be off in a world all on his own! At least now that Guy B. is gone!

 

[LFJ]

----Oh, and remember this video of "pure WSLVT"? At about the 2 minute mark.....these guys look pretty "forward-weighted" to me!

The MMA guys, maybe. The VT guys' stances are perpendicular to the MMA guys' lead-rear stances. It is not possible to be forward-weighted.

---Relatively "forward-weighted" in this vid as well. So your criticisms of boxing seem a bit off to me.

You can't even see their lower bodies in that video, but VT is not forward-weighted.

 

[LFJ]

I don't think so. Same lineage (WSL) perhaps...but different schools of thought on it's interpretation.

No. I agree 100% with his VT way of thinking. It's the same system.

 

[wckf92]

No. I agree 100% with his VT way of thinking. It's the same system.

Understood; however you did not refute the conversation about his student doing a "pak da" during one of his sparring bouts...and from all I've read from you, you feel that pak'ing the incoming limb then following with the punch is hand chasing. Is that correct?
If I've understood your logic you use pak to clear the way...but not as a primary action.
I don't mean to derail this thread but ...

 

[LFJ]

you did not refute the conversation about his student doing a "pak da" during one of his sparring bouts...and from all I've read from you, you feel that pak'ing the incoming limb then following with the punch is hand chasing. Is that correct?

If I've understood your logic you use pak to clear the way...but not as a primary action.

Depending on position, distance, and timing, paak-da may well be a valid and necessary response.

It becomes a primary action where one arm can't be used alone. If done in place of a single-arm action, for lack thereof, it's likely arm-chasing.

I've said paak-sau opens the way for the punch, which means it should be coupled with an attack.

If one is just paaking incoming punches, it is also likely arm-chasing.

 

[wckf92]

Depending on position, distance, and timing, paak-da may well be a valid and necessary response.

It becomes a primary action where one arm can't be used alone. If done in place of a single-arm action, for lack thereof, it's likely arm-chasing.

I've said paak-sau opens the way for the punch, which means it should be coupled with an attack.

If one is just paaking incoming punches, it is also likely arm-chasing.

Ok, cool. Thx for clarifying. That helped understand your thinking better.

 

[drop bear]

I have to disagree with you, KPM.

I am not at all convinced that LFJ practices something "so rigid in it's thinking...". Doesn't Sean's group (VT Lille) practice pretty much the same system as LFJ? They don't seem hampered by overly rigid thinking. Maybe the rigidity of thought you noted comes from the individual rather than the system?

Not even rigidity in LFJs thinking. It is just he had to be the one who thought of it. Overhand rights are ok. Becuse they are VT. they are not ok. Because they are boxing.

 

[KPM]

The MMA guys, maybe. The VT guys' stances are perpendicular to the MMA guys' lead-rear stances. It is not possible to be forward-weighted.

.

Uh, no. Your "pure WSLVT" guy from about 2:00 to 2:30 has his shoulders hunched up and is leaning forward with his hands up close to his face with a clearly forward-weighted stance. Not possible to be forward-weighted? What world do you live in? How is your boy going to be hunched forward without forward-weighting his stance to some degree?