Will you punch from your waist?

[Kung Fu Wang]

In both CMA and Karate, most of the back hand reverse punch all

- punch from the waist, and
- aim toward your opponent's chest.

If you want to punch at your opponent's face, you will need to punch almost 45 degree upward.

Since in sparring, you will always punch from your guarding position and your back reverse punch will always start from your head level, will you modify your Kata/form to meet your sparring, or will you punch from your waist in sparring? Will you train your Kata/form in 2 different ways, or will your train both in the same way? Which way will that be?

Your thought?

 

[K-man]

Nothing needs to change. Kata is kihon. You punch from wherever you hand is, not the waist. In a real fight if my hand is at my waist it has something in it, like an arm or a wrist or even a head or a leg. Don't any other schools teach kata in a meaningful way? :idunno:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Nothing needs to change. Kata is kihon. You punch from wherever you hand is, not the waist. In a real fight if my hand is at my waist it has something in it, like an arm or a wrist or even a head or a leg. Don't any other schools teach kata in a meaningful way? :idunno:

First of all, have you ever heard of, bowling? You should be able to throw a punch, or thrusting elbow, from a hands at your side position. That being said, most punches off the hip assume you did some crazy Okinawan rope-death training exercise, or it makes you slow to strike from there. For everyone who didn't do that yet, you should have your hand up, and out to the front.

 

[donald1]

In my karate class we have a lot of katas where your hand is at that spot

My instructor always says eventually you will learn to punch wherever your hand is at

 

[blindsage]

If in some imaginary fantasy world every single possible situation where you would have some kind of confrontation you would have time to put your hands up and approach the situation as a duel then a boxing stance is ideal. Have fun in that world. The rest of us might need to work on principles of movement plus refined technique, and a variety of approaches for a variety of real world situations.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

In both CMA and Karate, most of the back hand reverse punch all

- punch from the waist, and
- aim toward your opponent's chest.

If you want to punch at your opponent's face, you will need to punch almost 45 degree upward.

Since in sparring, you will always punch from your guarding position and your back reverse punch will always start from your head level, will you modify your Kata/form to meet your sparring, or will you punch from your waist in sparring? Will you train your Kata/form in 2 different ways, or will your train both in the same way? Which way will that be?

Your thought?

You are assuming that the movement in the kata is a punch. I would submit that in many/most cases it is not a punch. I've discussed this in other threads. The movement is often interpreted as a punch because the bunkai of kata was changed after Itosu Sensei introduced karate into the school system in Okinawa. In essence, kata was dumbed down for the kids. This in turn was taught to the G.I.'s after WWII and they in turn brought it back to their home countries. What many see as a punch from the hip, I (and others) see as you drawing the attacker into your center of gravity to off balance them and set them up for a counterstrike, throw, lock or some other such movement. In order to understand what I'm saying, you'll need to think of the movement in reverse of what is commonly taught. For example, stand in front of a partner. Now reach forward and grab their arm or a piece of clothing. Bring this limb or clothing back towards you as if you're going to put it in your pocket while twisting your wrist so that your palm is facing the ceiling. This is a static explanation of a dynamic movement for the purpose of illustrating the movement.

When considering this, a practitioner faces two possibilities; either the early karate masters who developed kata meant it as a punch because they didn't really know how to fight (no one really walks around with their hands chambered on their hips waiting to punch someone) or they did know a great deal about fighting and this isn't a punching movement. I believe the later of the two options. I believe they know a great deal about how the body works and that movements aren't always what is 'commonly' taught in today's modern dojo/dojang.

My two cents.

 

[Mark Lynn]

In both CMA and Karate, most of the back hand reverse punch all

- punch from the waist, and
- aim toward your opponent's chest.

If you want to punch at your opponent's face, you will need to punch almost 45 degree upward.

Since in sparring, you will always punch from your guarding position and your back reverse punch will always start from your head level, will you modify your Kata/form to meet your sparring, or will you punch from your waist in sparring? Will you train your Kata/form in 2 different ways, or will your train both in the same way? Which way will that be?

Your thought?

I don't alter my kata to fit sparring, because I look at them as two different things altogether. In kata the hand on the hip for me means I've probably grabbed something and pulled it there. So in sparring I'm not allowed to elbow to the face, I'm not allowed to kick to the legs etc. etc. all of which I can do in kata. In sparring I have a person who is faking and trying to score points, in kata all of the attacks that I'd be defending against are committed in some way. To me they are different things.

Now there are ways to integrate your kata into sparring, but that's altering it to fit as a drill for a purpose, not altering the way you train your kata (in a sense the way I think you are asking about).

However the same question can be turned around the other way.

We don't hit the head with a closed fist, you might hit the face, but I'm talking about hitting the skull with a closed fist, yet in boxing and sparring you do, because well you have protective gear on so you don't break your hand. So if kata and forms relate to self protection and in them you strike to the head, should you spar with using no protective gear and open hand techniques to the head. Should people sparring in boxing try and open their hands and hit with their palms when in a clinch and they are just banging away? Should they use open hand gloves and spear to the eyes since those techniques are found in kata? Should you train in boxing, equal time using a closed fist (when striking pads or focus mitts) and open palm strikes?

 

[punisher73]

Whole host of reasons on how the pulling the hand to the waist is a training method for other things.

One application was to train grabbing and pulling your attacker into your technique.

 

[clfsean]

I always punch from my waist ... don't mean my hand is there though.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you punch your heavy bag the same way as you punch in your solo form/Kata?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I always punch from my waist ... don't mean my hand is there though.

Yep!

 

[Touch Of Death]

I always punch from my waist ... don't mean my hand is there though.

Exactly, bowl and inward thrusting elbow, and then do the same motion starting with your hands up. Find out what is different, and ask yourself why.

 

[drop bear]

And because mohumd Ali was a hands up boxer.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hAH_pUyxKXo

 

[MJS]

In both CMA and Karate, most of the back hand reverse punch all

- punch from the waist, and
- aim toward your opponent's chest.

If you want to punch at your opponent's face, you will need to punch almost 45 degree upward.

Since in sparring, you will always punch from your guarding position and your back reverse punch will always start from your head level, will you modify your Kata/form to meet your sparring, or will you punch from your waist in sparring? Will you train your Kata/form in 2 different ways, or will your train both in the same way? Which way will that be?

Your thought?

Depending on the situation, I don't see why both don't have a role. We're talking about 2 different things, so that said, why not train for each? During a SD tech, your hand might not be in the sparring postion, ie: up by your head. IMO, we should train it all, and adjust as needed.

 

[blindsage]

Do you punch your heavy bag the same way as you punch in your solo form/Kata?

Do you throw your heavy bag the same way as you practice your throws?

 

[WaterGal]

I always punch from my waist ... don't mean my hand is there though.

Yeah, my opinion (I mean, I'm not a master, so take it with a grain of salt and all that) is that the punch from the waist is to train you to generate power from your core. It seems like a lot of inexperienced people (especially kids) just use their arm strength to punch, which is only going to get you so far.

 

[Zero]

People like KangSoDo and Punisher have nailed it on the head by pointing out that what you are seeing as simply a punch is not that, or is not only that. My style is goju ryu and one of the drills a very good senpai had us practice was to grab an opponent/training partner/uke at great speed in exactly this manner and to pull them into you and to then follow up with a strike or take down or re-direction. He even recommended we practice this out of class against our unsuspecting (but more robust and well humoured) friends, which was a lot of fun and great for speed work.

A good move he showed me he used as a bouncer (he was a massive guy in any event, so most things he employed worked for him, that's all I'll say on that) was to use this technique on a trouble maker. He would grab them by the upper front of the jacket or lapel and pull them into him using the torque/screw motion at great speed and then almost simultaneously put his opposite forearm up into their neck, as a push/pull, redirection motion all in one, and back them off-balance into a wall or over a table etc. Obviously you need to assess your target and surroundings but he found this good on those that had not gone into the red zone and that would give them an opportunity to cool down with his forearm across their windpipe while keeping the pressure on with the other torquing hand. I have also used this myself on one occasion (and probably due to the drilling we had done on it) to split up a punch up between a drunken fool and my equally troublesome drunken friend (a good martial artist but who likes to drink and unfortunately can let his anger run away on him, we drink mainly indoors these days if we have a session, now I am older any inclination of getting into a bust up, even for a friend while they are drunk and possibly the instigator, has all but gone).

Completely related to this but on a different note and following on from Watergal's comment. For generating speed and power, while the waist comes into play obviously, the true speed and power for a punch is generated from twisting the hips (I see the waist and hips as slightly different but apologies if the intention is the same, am not meaning to get into semantics) . By flicking the hips as you punch a far greater degree of torque is generated. Obviously aspects such as engaging your lats and putting your weight over your forward knee also comes into play as any decent boxer will tell you. Check out footage of Bruce Lee both training and in some of his fight scenes and you will see this hip movement. This takes a lot of practice on the bags to get the timing and degree right (at least it did for me).

I have never actually used the standard reverse punch as in kata as a punch in tournament or in SD. Other than a point scoring requirement in sport karate I personally do not see this as a go to punch for myself. We practice a back-fist thrown from belt height and it does make a lovely cracking sound on the pads when done right but "unfortunately" have never been in a situation to put this into play. As others have said, to be able to employ a technique from any angle or level possible is only a good thing.

 

[oftheherd1]

You are assuming that the movement in the kata is a punch. I would submit that in many/most cases it is not a punch. I've discussed this in other threads. The movement is often interpreted as a punch because the bunkai of kata was changed after Itosu Sensei introduced karate into the school system in Okinawa. In essence, kata was dumbed down for the kids. This in turn was taught to the G.I.'s after WWII and they in turn brought it back to their home countries. What many see as a punch from the hip, I (and others) see as you drawing the attacker into your center of gravity to off balance them and set them up for a counterstrike, throw, lock or some other such movement. In order to understand what I'm saying, you'll need to think of the movement in reverse of what is commonly taught. For example, stand in front of a partner. Now reach forward and grab their arm or a piece of clothing. Bring this limb or clothing back towards you as if you're going to put it in your pocket while twisting your wrist so that your palm is facing the ceiling. This is a static explanation of a dynamic movement for the purpose of illustrating the movement.

When considering this, a practitioner faces two possibilities; either the early karate masters who developed kata meant it as a punch because they didn't really know how to fight (no one really walks around with their hands chambered on their hips waiting to punch someone) or they did know a great deal about fighting and this isn't a punching movement. I believe the later of the two options. I believe they know a great deal about how the body works and that movements aren't always what is 'commonly' taught in today's modern dojo/dojang.

My two cents.

I'm also inclined to think the old masters did know a great deal about fighting. What you say above makes sense. I also think other applications could apply as the old masters learned more and more, or expectations of methods of fighting changed. FWIW, in my brief studies of TKD, I was taught there were two reasons for that move: greater punching power (action/reaction) for the punching hand, and in the event of a second opponent who might unexpectedly be behind you, it was protection by a strike with the elbow.

One could probably learn other applications as well.

EDIT: I see Zero mentioned the hips, which I was also taught for punching. I didn't mention it as I was concentrating mostly on the punch as that was what the OP concentrated on. But I agree with Zero that the hips need to be part of a more powerful hand strike.

 

[Flying Crane]

I always punch from my waist ... don't mean my hand is there though.

Take it lower. Punch from the feet. That's where the waist rotation comes from.

My opinion: this whole punch from the waist thing, it's an expression of full Body connection and waist rotation. It is a very powerful method of delivery. Application is on top of that. Yes, it can be used to drive a punch. Yes it can be used to grab and pull. Yes it an be used to drive...whatever. But without understanding the principle of the delivery, the specific application isn't worth much, isn't very powerful.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Take it lower. Punch from the feet. That's where the waist rotation comes from.

My opinion: this whole punch from the waist thing, it's an expression of full Body connection and waist rotation. It is a very powerful method of delivery. Application is on top of that. Yes, it can be used to drive a punch. Yes it can be used to grab and pull. Yes it an be used to drive...whatever. But without understanding the principle of the delivery, the specific application isn't worth much, isn't very powerful.

I was going to say that, "flicking the hips" thing was a bunch of crap, but you say it so much better.