Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Dude does not really know much about capoeira.

I believe he practiced it for a while, no clue how long. That said...I know squat about capoeira, besides how to pronounce it and that it looks cool. What did he say that was wrong?

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe he practiced it for a while, no clue how long. That said...I know squat about capoeira, besides how to pronounce it and that it looks cool. What did he say that was wrong?

I didn’t listen to the whole thing, I have a short attention span for a long of the drivel. But I turned him off when he started talking about capoeira as a fighting method “disguised” as a dance.

There is no disguise there. It is simply a different cultural norm. African tribal groups used music and rhythm is many of their daily activities. Athletics and martial training would be no different.

If you have ever seen capoeira, there is no mistaking it for a dance. It is obviously a martial method. The slave owners knew about capoeira, they knew what it was, they were not fooled.

 

[hoshin1600]

reading the OP topic title, i am wondering.....were there no TMA trained guys in Pride. you know since it being from Japan and all?

 

[punisher73]

First, MMA is not equal to UFC. Most fans in the US equate the two. Go over to other countries in other competitions and you will see different base arts.

David Loiseau was in the UFC and did some amazing TKD kicks that I haven't seen anyone else really pull off.

 

[Lifetime student]

'effective' is a spectrum, as is 'ineffective'.

Let's take Connor and Kabbib. Both very effective, but also very different.

Spectrum ?

"I don't know what that is but get the hell off it pronto"

Cobra Kai quote lol

 

[Lifetime student]

Fact is the traditional guys in the first few UFC events weren't good fighters because they couldn't get good fighters in the early. You had 50 year old Kung fu guys fighting, you had out of shape kick boxers, you had wrestlers who'd never thrown a punch in their life, you had 500 pound sumo wrestlers. Fact is a lot of the old school UFC fighters were hand picked so Gracie would look good....that's what the early UFC was basically a promo for the Gracie's schools and frankly back people didn't have a clue what Bjj was.

It comes down to the training. If you spend all your training time standing in deep stances punching the air in place you won't win any fights.

 

[Hanzou]

Fact is the traditional guys in the first few UFC events weren't good fighters because they couldn't get good fighters in the early. You had 50 year old Kung fu guys fighting, you had out of shape kick boxers, you had wrestlers who'd never thrown a punch in their life, you had 500 pound sumo wrestlers. Fact is a lot of the old school UFC fighters were hand picked so Gracie would look good....that's what the early UFC was basically a promo for the Gracie's schools and frankly back people didn't have a clue what Bjj was.

Ken Shamrock, Art Jimmeson, and Gerard Gordeau were all high level professional fighters before the UFC. The idea that they were just bums off the street to make it easy for the Gracies is laughable stuff.

 

[FriedRice]

Ken Shamrock, Art Jimmeson, and Gerard Gordeau were all high level professional fighters before the UFC. The idea that they were just bums off the street to make it easy for the Gracies is laughable stuff.

Not only that Jimmerson was a Champion, who held 2 Boxing Titles and with a winning record. Patrick Smith, Remco Pardoel, Minoki Ichihara, Jason DeLucia....these were all legit TMA'ists and fighers.

 

[drop bear]

I believe he practiced it for a while, no clue how long. That said...I know squat about capoeira, besides how to pronounce it and that it looks cool. What did he say that was wrong?

There are musical cues so when the authorities came the band would change the music and it would become a samba roda.

 

[punisher73]

Ken Shamrock, Art Jimmeson, and Gerard Gordeau were all high level professional fighters before the UFC. The idea that they were just bums off the street to make it easy for the Gracies is laughable stuff.

Art Jimmeson, the guy with one boxing glove? Come on that is a prime example of no one but the Gracies knowing what to expect, which is why it was so hard to find fighters They also knew that Ken Shamrock did not know anything about fighting with/against a gi. You will notice that no wrestlers were invited to that first UFC, Rorion did not want them there (interview with Art Davie). The UFC WAS designed as a Gracie marketing tool.

I agree that they were not "bums off the street", but they stacked the deck in their favor.

 

[Hanzou]

Art Jimmeson, the guy with one boxing glove? Come on that is a prime example of no one but the Gracies knowing what to expect, which is why it was so hard to find fighters They also knew that Ken Shamrock did not know anything about fighting with/against a gi. You will notice that no wrestlers were invited to that first UFC, Rorion did not want them there (interview with Art Davie). The UFC WAS designed as a Gracie marketing tool.

I agree that they were not "bums off the street", but they stacked the deck in their favor.

Jimmeson himself chose to fight with one glove.

Shamrock was a professional wrestler. Teali Tuli was a professional Sumo Wrestler.

It's actually easier to grapple against someone with a gi because you have more grips vs a sweaty body. Royce was actually at a disadvantage against Shamrock.

 

[punisher73]

Jimmeson himself chose to fight with one glove.

Shamrock was a professional wrestler. Teali Tuli was a professional Sumo Wrestler.

It's actually easier to grapple against someone with a gi because you have more grips vs a sweaty body. Royce was actually at a disadvantage against Shamrock.

Correct, because Jimmeson didn't know what to expect.

Shamrock did Pancrase, Tuli was a Sumo who hadn't fought in 4 years. Royce was not at a disadvantage, they knew that Shamrock didn't know how to use a gi or be prepared for a gi being used as a weapon. That is based on interviews with the Gracies. Even Shamrock was miffed that they wouldn't let him wear wrestling shoes because the clothing could be used as a weapon, yet Royce used his uniform as a weapon.

You might not like it, but the fact that wrestlers were not selected is also fact based on interviews. The Gracies have a lot invested in people believing the hype that they were all undefeated fighters and were the wellspring of everything that is BJJ.

 

[Hanzou]

Correct, because Jimmeson didn't know what to expect.

Shamrock did Pancrase, Tuli was a Sumo who hadn't fought in 4 years. Royce was not at a disadvantage, they knew that Shamrock didn't know how to use a gi or be prepared for a gi being used as a weapon. That is based on interviews with the Gracies. Even Shamrock was miffed that they wouldn't let him wear wrestling shoes because the clothing could be used as a weapon, yet Royce used his uniform as a weapon.

You might not like it, but the fact that wrestlers were not selected is also fact based on interviews. The Gracies have a lot invested in people believing the hype that they were all undefeated fighters and were the wellspring of everything that is BJJ.

I believe the full name was "Pancrase Hybrid Wrestling". He also wrestled in high school and college, and was the veteran of multiple pro wrestling organizations before entering UFC1.

As for the rest, it sounds like Shamrock is just making excuses for his loss. Who knew that extra grips and no shoes would completely break his wrestling style!

 

[drop bear]

For op. It is because not stylistically but training methodologically mma is about the best method to gain realistic feedback about martial arts.

From the open rule set to the gloves the precise mats that allow stand up and takedowns to even using the cage wall to fight from it is just a huge step forwards.

And this method of honest feedback progresses a martial art faster than just about anything.


10 years of drills just doesn't progress as fast as 6 months of sparring.

I remember training in these back in the day.

It was hard to spar in them.

 

[drop bear]

Correct, because Jimmeson didn't know what to expect.

Shamrock did Pancrase, Tuli was a Sumo who hadn't fought in 4 years. Royce was not at a disadvantage, they knew that Shamrock didn't know how to use a gi or be prepared for a gi being used as a weapon. That is based on interviews with the Gracies. Even Shamrock was miffed that they wouldn't let him wear wrestling shoes because the clothing could be used as a weapon, yet Royce used his uniform as a weapon.

You might not like it, but the fact that wrestlers were not selected is also fact based on interviews. The Gracies have a lot invested in people believing the hype that they were all undefeated fighters and were the wellspring of everything that is BJJ.

Wrestling shoes are a double edged sword a bit as well. It makes single leg escapes harder.

 

[drop bear]

I believe the full name was "Pancrase Hybrid Wrestling". He also wrestled in high school and college, and was the veteran of multiple pro wrestling organizations before entering UFC1.

As for the rest, it sounds like Shamrock is just making excuses for his loss. Who knew that extra grips and no shoes would completely break his wrestling style!

And he got rnc'ed. So not a gi choke.

 

[Hanzou]

And he got rnc'ed. So not a gi choke.

Shamrock claims he got gi choked.

Just more evidence of him whining about his loss.

 

[drop bear]

Shamrock claims he got gi choked.

Just more evidence of him whining about his loss.

I had a look and there was no gi magic I can see.

He made a few mistakes mmaers try not to make these days like guillotine sprawls and giving up the back.

Then again Royce was throwing palm strikes rather than hammer fists.

Which is kind of the point about mma and feedback I mentioned in my other thread.

 

[FriedRice]

Even Shamrock was miffed that they wouldn't let him wear wrestling shoes because the clothing could be used as a weapon, yet Royce used his uniform as a weapon.

False. It was because Shamrock wanted to kick. If you kicked, then you couldn't wear shoes.

You might not like it, but the fact that wrestlers were not selected is also fact based on interviews.

False. I have almost all of the UFC's on video. The early UFC's was like an invasion of Wrestlers and they dominated for a while. But even during Royce's short reign, there were Judokas and Shamrock was clearly a wrestler. What, Dan Severn wasn't a wrestler or something?

The Gracie had a few fights on YouTube way before this where they fought Wrestlers and beat them. Why didn't many Wrestlers show up during Royce's days? I dunno, maybe they were scared after knowing about the Gracie's reputation for wrecking Wrestlers in their Torrance, CA gym. Why weren't there many Sumo Wrestlers? Why weren't there many Boxers? Why weren't there any Wing Chunners?

 

[Steve]

Wrestling shoes are a double edged sword a bit as well. It makes single leg escapes harder.

They are also great grips for ankle locks and toe holds. The sole of the shoe is stiff and grippy.