Ponder this: Has Wrestling and MMA made the traditional martial arts obsolete?

[Freestyler777]

Disclaimer: This may be offensive to some readers.

Since MMA has come to America, it seems everyone is training in MMA style fighting, and in the three most MMA-proven effective styles: namely, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ. Alas, not everyone is young and fit enough to practice these individual arts, let alone MMA. What should the 'average' athlete do in order to learn unarmed combat?

I think what MMA did for society was that it should that non-lethal 'safe' techniques that can be done every day in sparring/rolling are more effective than 'deadly' techniques, which can't be done to a resisting training partner, or else you'd kill them! Karate and Kung Fu still have tremendous merit, don't get me wrong.

But does that mean that martial arts should be the domain of young, strong wrestlers? Certainly there is a way to learn self-defense without being a great (and young) athlete?

I am not bashing the older martial arts. All I am saying is, wrestling has proven to be the best traditional martial art, and MMA is the most realistic combat sport. If people discarded Karate, what place would there be for people who don't like MMA, non-athletes, women, and children? Not everyone is interested in Muay Thai Sparring or wrestling or submission grappling. The premise is, everyone should be entitled to a martial arts education. How would you suggest that lofty goal be accomplished?

 

[Tez3]

I'll answer this with another question, what does MMA stand for? the answer of course is Mixed Martial Arts. You've named only three martial arts that you consider important, we use Judo, Aikido, karate, TKD, in fact any move from any style that will work. I'm not sure wrestling has been proved to be the best martial arts style either but you are probably right when you say that MMA is the best combat sport. It's also only in America that wrestling is so predominant.

I train MMA and am most definitely not a young male athlete!

MMA is not the best way to train for self defence, it's the very best way to train for MMA!

Of course there's a place for traditional martial arts,I can't ever see there not being.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

:deadhorse

 

[MJS]

Disclaimer: This may be offensive to some readers.

Since MMA has come to America, it seems everyone is training in MMA style fighting, and in the three most MMA-proven effective styles: namely, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ. Alas, not everyone is young and fit enough to practice these individual arts, let alone MMA. What should the 'average' athlete do in order to learn unarmed combat?

I think what MMA did for society was that it should that non-lethal 'safe' techniques that can be done every day in sparring/rolling are more effective than 'deadly' techniques, which can't be done to a resisting training partner, or else you'd kill them! Karate and Kung Fu still have tremendous merit, don't get me wrong.

But does that mean that martial arts should be the domain of young, strong wrestlers? Certainly there is a way to learn self-defense without being a great (and young) athlete?

I am not bashing the older martial arts. All I am saying is, wrestling has proven to be the best traditional martial art, and MMA is the most realistic combat sport. If people discarded Karate, what place would there be for people who don't like MMA, non-athletes, women, and children? Not everyone is interested in Muay Thai Sparring or wrestling or submission grappling. The premise is, everyone should be entitled to a martial arts education. How would you suggest that lofty goal be accomplished?

Question: You state 3 arts, BJJ, MT and Wrestling. You state that these arts have been proven. My question is, by whom? The Gracies? A MMA student? A youtube clip? In the ring? On the street? I am certainly not disputing that these arts are good, but this post almost hints that they are the best.

I am getting the impression that this thread will take the turn of so many others here, which is my art vs. your art.

I think that BJJ is fantastic for the ground. I grapple when I can. I've added a few things in from the MMA line of training. As far as the 'deadly' reference, well, I'd say the same applies for BJJ. Do you choke out your opponent every time you roll? What about breaking his arm? How about injuring the ankle or knee from a leg lock? So you see, its really no different than someone who trains an eye jab. You take the training to a certain point, but you're forced to stop.

In closing, I'll say that everything has its place. There are things to be gained from both TMA and MMA. Add, borrow, change, whatever. For myself, I'm not going to disregard something, because it can't be done in the cage or its not on tape.

Mike

 

[PictonMA]

In closing, I'll say that everything has its place. There are things to be gained from both TMA and MMA. Add, borrow, change, whatever. For myself, I'm not going to disregard something, because it can't be done in the cage or its not on tape.

No need for me to type anything else, Mike nailed this perfectly.

 

[Tez3]

Question: You state 3 arts, BJJ, MT and Wrestling. You state that these arts have been proven. My question is, by whom? The Gracies? A MMA student? A youtube clip? In the ring? On the street? I am certainly not disputing that these arts are good, but this post almost hints that they are the best.

I am getting the impression that this thread will take the turn of so many others here, which is my art vs. your art.

I think that BJJ is fantastic for the ground. I grapple when I can. I've added a few things in from the MMA line of training. As far as the 'deadly' reference, well, I'd say the same applies for BJJ. Do you choke out your opponent every time you roll? What about breaking his arm? How about injuring the ankle or knee from a leg lock? So you see, its really no different than someone who trains an eye jab. You take the training to a certain point, but you're forced to stop.

In closing, I'll say that everything has its place. There are things to be gained from both TMA and MMA. Add, borrow, change, whatever. For myself, I'm not going to disregard something, because it can't be done in the cage or its not on tape.

Mike

I agree with every word here, I didn't find the original post offensive as warned though just sad. I spend a lot of time publicising MMA and trying to get people to see it's worth, not as a replacement for other martial arts but as an entertaining, worthwhile add on to martial arts. I don't need to have things stirred up in yet another MMA v TMA argument.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

At the end of the day, everything that exists in martial arts has its place. When we recognise that, its possible for us to enjoy our art, and respect other arts for what they are.
The declarations of any Art being the Be-All and End-All do nothing more than damage that particular art, as it causes a loss of focus on the arts purpose.

 

[jkn75]

....What should the 'average' athlete do in order to learn unarmed combat?...

But does that mean that martial arts should be the domain of young, strong wrestlers? Certainly there is a way to learn self-defense without being a great (and young) athlete?

I am not bashing the older martial arts. All I am saying is, wrestling has proven to be the best traditional martial art, and MMA is the most realistic combat sport. If people discarded Karate, what place would there be for people who don't like MMA, non-athletes, women, and children? Not everyone is interested in Muay Thai Sparring or wrestling or submission grappling. The premise is, everyone should be entitled to a martial arts education. How would you suggest that lofty goal be accomplished?

Martial arts are for everyone. If we have learned anything, it should be that. MMA should not be the exclusive realm of the young, it should be the exclusive domain of people who enjoy that type of training. If everyone is entitled to martial arts education, the instructors have to make it for everyone. If I want to take any MA class and I am not young and healthy due to age, health, disability, etc., a good instructor should be able to help me overcome those deficiencies.

Additionally, as popular as MMA and the 3 "main" styles used have become, I don't see a lot of empty TMA schools. I don't read about the rash of TMA schools closing in my town and reopening as MMA centers. In reality, there seem to be more schools opening to meet the demand of people interested in MMA while TMA schools hum along.

TMA schools fail or survive based on a number of factors. Is MMA the main cause? We don't have any facts to support that. I believe the same problems that plague commercial TMA schools plague even the best instructed commercial MMA schools, getting people in the door and running a good business.

As far as TMA's being obsolete? Well, that is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Freestyler777]

Thanks guys for not tearing me to pieces on this one. Your insights are valid.

 

[Empty Hands]

All I am saying is, wrestling has proven to be the best traditional martial art, and MMA is the most realistic combat sport.

The "best" TMA? Really? What do you do if there is more than one opponent? Hmm....

As for MMA, it has indeed proven to be a realistic sport - with the emphasis on sport. I have seen no evidence that it is particularly effective over karate or TKD or anything else outside the ring.

 

[wesley]

first i'd like to say that all arts have a place.. each is unique and has a purpose.

second, Empty Hands is completly right. you cant wrestle 3vs1.

third, the average athlete just has to train. train long and hard. the art is not what beats an opponent, it's the person using it. individual skill and expirence comes into play in ANY fight. just because someone has a blackbelt doesnt mean they are going to know what to do when the real stuff hits the fan.

 

[Tez3]

Believe it or not it's not wrestling/grappling, TKD, Karate, Judo, Muay Thai or any other art that wins an MMA fight...... it's fitness. It's stamina and fitness every time. There's no good being the best kicker, puncher or grappler in the world if you gas after a minute or two then even a white belt of any style will defeat you.

Freestyler, it was tempting to write you off as a troll! I've seen so many TMA v MMA threads on different forums which end up with people slagging each other off and going round in circles.

MMA is as much for older people as any other MA maybe apart from Capoiera ( the one style I deem impossible for my old bones but it looks so good)

I think wrestling is probably the oldest martial art rather than the most effective, to say otherwise is just being provocative! ( I've just had to correct myself there as I typed marital art lol -a Freudian slip?) A lot of TMA people get into MMA because they want to combine what they know and they enjoy competing. MMA is like physical chess, we just enjoy it's challenges. It's respective parts are TMAs after all so there's no need for any arguing over it!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Disclaimer: This may be offensive to some readers.

Since MMA has come to America, it seems everyone is training in MMA style fighting, and in the three most MMA-proven effective styles: namely, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ. Alas, not everyone is young and fit enough to practice these individual arts, let alone MMA. What should the 'average' athlete do in order to learn unarmed combat?

I think what MMA did for society was that it should that non-lethal 'safe' techniques that can be done every day in sparring/rolling are more effective than 'deadly' techniques, which can't be done to a resisting training partner, or else you'd kill them! Karate and Kung Fu still have tremendous merit, don't get me wrong.

But does that mean that martial arts should be the domain of young, strong wrestlers? Certainly there is a way to learn self-defense without being a great (and young) athlete?

I am not bashing the older martial arts. All I am saying is, wrestling has proven to be the best traditional martial art, and MMA is the most realistic combat sport. If people discarded Karate, what place would there be for people who don't like MMA, non-athletes, women, and children? Not everyone is interested in Muay Thai Sparring or wrestling or submission grappling. The premise is, everyone should be entitled to a martial arts education. How would you suggest that lofty goal be accomplished?

In the 60's it was Judo and Ju Jitsu.

In the 70's it was TKD and Karate and Full Contact

In the Late 70's through the 80's it was Point Fighting and speed - Also the "eclectic arts" and or weapon arts made rise such as the FMA's. Also add in a general increase to knife awareness and knife training.

In the 90's the UFC was launched. Mostly BJJ and or Wrestling for the winners of the sport (* Note: I said Mostly *). Knife Training also increased in the 90s.

The ICBM made the regional missiles obsolete. Oh wait we still have them and use them. The car made traveling by horse obsolete (* required lots of asphalt and concrete *) but lots of people still enjoy riding a horse.

So are the more traditional arts obsolete?

No.

Will some people be more inclined to one thing to another as time goes by?

Yes.

 

[Selfcritical]

Disclaimer: This may be offensive to some readers.

Since MMA has come to America, it seems everyone is training in MMA style fighting, and in the three most MMA-proven effective styles: namely, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ. Alas, not everyone is young and fit enough to practice these individual arts, let alone MMA. What should the 'average' athlete do in order to learn unarmed combat?

I think what MMA did for society was that it should that non-lethal 'safe' techniques that can be done every day in sparring/rolling are more effective than 'deadly' techniques, which can't be done to a resisting training partner, or else you'd kill them! Karate and Kung Fu still have tremendous merit, don't get me wrong.

But does that mean that martial arts should be the domain of young, strong wrestlers? Certainly there is a way to learn self-defense without being a great (and young) athlete?

I am not bashing the older martial arts. All I am saying is, wrestling has proven to be the best traditional martial art, and MMA is the most realistic combat sport. If people discarded Karate, what place would there be for people who don't like MMA, non-athletes, women, and children? Not everyone is interested in Muay Thai Sparring or wrestling or submission grappling. The premise is, everyone should be entitled to a martial arts education. How would you suggest that lofty goal be accomplished?

UFC wasn't a revolution in arts- the body of technique existed well beforehand, and many people train in them and still can't fight worth a damn. Similarly, many people manage to do quite well with only cursory jujitsu skills, or poor boxing, or mediocre wrestling. No one art is the secret to MMA. The two incontrovertible lessons of MMA are something that can be adapted and shared by any art.

1- Training method. There is no substitute for regular resistant training with noncompliant partners, where your sole goal is increased performance. Full contact, high conditioning, and someone trying as hard as possible to stop you lead to growth.

2- versatility. You have to be able to fight in multiple ranges, transition to the range where you have the greatest strength, and learn how to resist your opponents attempts to change the range or phase of the fight. That means if your art doesn't address a given range, and you don't get training to supplement, you will always have a significant weakness that will get exploited.

MMA didn't make old methods obsolete, it just gave us a measuring stick to assess our methods and goals by.

 

[Selfcritical]

first i'd like to say that all arts have a place.. each is unique and has a purpose.

second, Empty Hands is completly right. you cant wrestle 3vs1.

third, the average athlete just has to train. train long and hard. the art is not what beats an opponent, it's the person using it. individual skill and expirence comes into play in ANY fight. just because someone has a blackbelt doesnt mean they are going to know what to do when the real stuff hits the fan.

3 vs 1 it may not be your choice if you're wrestling, and if one of the three takes it there, you should be prepared.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

3 vs 1 it may not be your choice if you're wrestling, and if one of the three takes it there, you should be prepared.

Absolutely. However, that preparation should be towards getting back on your feet as quickly as possible because absolutely no one that I know of can grapple well with one person while two people are striking at them from above. If you are on your feet you have a chance to escape or deploy a tool or improvised tool more effectively to even the odds.

 

[Joe Divola]

MMA will never make TMA obsolete, if anything I think that it will help them. It will bring more attention to MA in general and get people into local schools to learn MA. Chuck Liddel trained in Kenpo and GSP started in TKD, those are a couple of high profile people to have kids look at and want to start the way that they did

 

[lhommedieu]

I think that the traditional/mixed martial arts distinction can be as distinct or blurred as you want it to be. For example, I posted a slightly revised version of this on another, smaller forum a while back after someone asked me for more information about Estacada:

“Thanks for the opportunity to discuss one of my favorite martial arts and martial artists. Estacada is a form of internal boxing developed by William (Bill) Schettino. It has a boxing/Thai boxing framework, but the movements (punches, kicks, elbows, knees, etc.) are grounded upon the same kinds of internal body mechanics that you'd find in Xing Yi or Ba Gua, etc. In addition, it has a grappling (locks, throws, and destructions) and weapons curriculum that uses the exact same body mechanics, so that everything that is done in the system is basically an expression of the same set of principles.

I consider Bill to be a "coach's coach" with respect to his ability to take any martial artist and help them to do what they already do at a significantly higher level. He teaches primarily one-on-one but will teach small group seminars if asked. Quite a few MMA fighters go to Bill for coaching and I know that several members of a national LEO contacted Bill for specialized training a few years ago, because they felt the empty hands training they had received was not adequate. Speaking solely for myself: I have a modest set of skills and yet Bill always makes me feel like a 220 pound hunk of wood as he chases me around the room doing his version of "push hands."

Estacada-Kajukenbo is simply Estacada placed upon a Kajukenbo foundation. Bill spent several years in San Diego learning directly under Sijo Emperado; he kept the hard hitting, "monkey line," format, but uses Estacada principles to teach a series of 52 "sets" that comprise the basis of instruction up until Black Belt level. It's a profound expression of Kajukenbo very much in line with Sijo's original intention (and has received his enthusiastic endorsement).

It was Bill's misfortune (or fortune) to be born a 16th century man in the 20th century - but I figured that most of you on this forum will appreciate him.”

Further information can be found at: www.estacada.net

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Bujingodai]

Why would MMA want to make TMA obsolete? They need it to make fun of.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Disclaimer: This may be offensive to some readers.

Since MMA has come to America, it seems everyone is training in MMA style fighting, and in the three most MMA-proven effective styles: namely, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ. Alas, not everyone is young and fit enough to practice these individual arts, let alone MMA. What should the 'average' athlete do in order to learn unarmed combat?

I think what MMA did for society was that it should that non-lethal 'safe' techniques that can be done every day in sparring/rolling are more effective than 'deadly' techniques, which can't be done to a resisting training partner, or else you'd kill them! Karate and Kung Fu still have tremendous merit, don't get me wrong.

But does that mean that martial arts should be the domain of young, strong wrestlers? Certainly there is a way to learn self-defense without being a great (and young) athlete?

I am not bashing the older martial arts. All I am saying is, wrestling has proven to be the best traditional martial art, and MMA is the most realistic combat sport. If people discarded Karate, what place would there be for people who don't like MMA, non-athletes, women, and children? Not everyone is interested in Muay Thai Sparring or wrestling or submission grappling. The premise is, everyone should be entitled to a martial arts education. How would you suggest that lofty goal be accomplished?

Why is there always a thread where someone is comparing sports to martial arts? MMA is NOT a martial art. Wrestling is only effective in the one on one, multiple attackers nullifies it's effectiveness.

No, they have not replaced martial arts. "Nuff Said.