Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[Hand Sword]

I would say all the arguing is irrelevant. Whether it's TMA or MMA the techniques used are the same. The MMA grappling, boxing, and Kickboxing is all from TMA styles. (Boxing is included in that) They aren't doing anything new. It's all been done, and is still being done. The real discussion is about the applications and training methods.

 

[chinto]

You probably hit the nail on the head w/a cultural difference regarding SD in the UK Ceicei. I mean after all practically any sort of weapon is outlawed back there, and many seem to talk about wanting to be "street" effective :idunno:

My understanding is at least as far as the UK, and meany other countrys there too im told, is that any pocket knife that the blade locks and the blade is over 2 inches is " an offensive weapon" the penelty is the same as for carring a loaded SUBMACHINGUN! so meany of the thugs in the UK Im told are getting guns. but also the man I know in the UK who teaches MA said that if you hurt the thug badly you may be charged too.. and if you are a constable ( uk cop) you will surely get in trouble if you do any harm hardly at all... sigh... just goes to show what happens when PC continues to gain exceptance....but then you have to have aproval ( licence or permit i guess ) of some sort to even take martial arts im told there in a lot of jurisdictions, go figure. I am also told that the instructors have to be licenced to teach by gov officals
( I do not live there but that is what i have been told.)

 

[Nobody]

As far as reality goes there is count coup that is the most important thing here not always do you in the real world see it or notice it happening, but this is the way most criminals look at how they deal with someone in reality. Count coup is when you do a very specific set of ideas to first test boundaries than if successful well you do something else that shows even more openings in your enemies weakness. This is all done to setup the person an then attack them.

 

[seasoned]

Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense.
I am on my way to work so this will be short.Principals are born of concepts. Just because something calls itself traditional does not mean it adheres to the trial and error that formed the principals. Give me a school that not only calls itself traditional but adheres to the founding methods that were tested in real battle. If it worked then, it will work now. Traditional Karate was born of life or death.

 

[kroh]

Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense.
I am on my way to work so this will be short.Principals are born of concepts. Just because something calls itself traditional does not mean it adheres to the trial and error that formed the principals. Give me a school that not only calls itself traditional but adheres to the founding methods that were tested in real battle. If it worked then, it will work now. Traditional Karate was born of life or death.

Great viewpoint. Nicely said.
Regards,
Walt

 

[suicide]

when it comes to real fight you got to go for yours who said a karateka won bite scratch or bust a bottle over your head it all depends on you :BSmeter:

 

[chav buster]

i think what he said is both true and false as the way most karate is train is aload of rubbish as most instructors dont fully understand the art.read a book by Iain Abernethy and Gavin Mulholland and you will understand the art alot better for instance the kata's are solo drills like shadow boxing but designed to teach you a specific way of fighting and if you use a little reason you will see theres all sorts of grappling techniques ect including guard passes locks strangles ect the board breaking is designed to help you deal with adrenaline as you shouldnt be allowed to practice breaking boards until your grading and the grading should be done infront of family and your mates. karate has all the techniques from boxing in it most of the muay thai techniques all the basic judo throws and a good amount of ground fighting along with all the kill/dirty stuff from krav maga its just the focus for most karate instructions is either comps or thay dont know or focus on the real stuff.
alot of the modern rbsp stuff have a root in karate aswell

 

[Hand Sword]

Exactly. It's all in there. Unfortunately this is what happens when black belts are so quick to start their own schools, teach, and from their own systems. Not enough maturity. They advance as they age but their systems, being made early and marketed stay as they are, mature very slowly, or worse--get wattered down.

 

[MilkManX]

I can see that. It really depends on your Sensei though I think. I have sparred some guys from Traditional styles that were great and some not good at all.

The Enshin(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshin_Karate) system strips away alot of the old training and its focus is on practical self defence.
The kata is "fighting" kata that has no hidden bunkai but practical training.

Its not for everyone but I think it works great for me.

 

[exile]

i think what he said is both true and false as the way most karate is train is aload of rubbish as most instructors dont fully understand the art.read a book by Iain Abernethy and Gavin Mulholland and you will understand the art alot better for instance the kata's are solo drills like shadow boxing but designed to teach you a specific way of fighting and if you use a little reason you will see theres all sorts of grappling techniques ect including guard passes locks strangles ect the board breaking is designed to help you deal with adrenaline as you shouldnt be allowed to practice breaking boards until your grading and the grading should be done infront of family and your mates. karate has all the techniques from boxing in it most of the muay thai techniques all the basic judo throws and a good amount of ground fighting along with all the kill/dirty stuff from krav maga its just the focus for most karate instructions is either comps or thay dont know or focus on the real stuff.
alot of the modern rbsp stuff have a root in karate aswell

Quoted for truth!

Always it comes down to learning how to read the kata. What CB is correctly calling 'reason' is just the basic idea that there was a rationale to the combination of movements in kata, and that that combination had nothing to do with aesthetics, or conditioning or some weird idea that the katas were enactments of religio/philosophical ideas. They were there because they represented effective tactical responses based on the strategic premises of Okinawan karate. All that other stuff came in when people basically lost the instruction manual, the kaisai no genri, for reading the kata. And that's something that started a long time ago.

People like IA, Mulholland, Burgar, Rick Clark and many others show just how much there is in the kata. But they'd also be the first to tell you (Abernethy does tell you, over and over and over) that once you've seen how the techs fit together, how a striking hand becomes a gripping hand to set up the next strike, and a gripping hand becomes the next striking hand—then you have to train it, pressure test it with someone who's less and less cooperative. And that's the hard part. Legally, it can be very dicey for an instructor to promote that sort of thing. And realistically, very few people want their karate training to be that street-realistic—that violent.

This violent, for example.... courtesy of our achives.

 

[Flying Crane]

Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective For Self-Defense​

By WR Mann​

Who is WR Mann, and why should his opinion matter to me?

"If you're up against someone who doesn't know how to fight -- yes, old-style karate can work, but if you fight an experienced streetfighter or a trained fighter, no way!" - Jon Bluming​

who is Jon Bluming, and why should his opinion matter to me?

It's funny, seeing people quote some yokel and expect that to add weight or meaning to their own nonsense.

Kinda like when some 12 year-old quotes Bruce Lee "discard what is useless, blah blah blah..." and thinks that justifies him founding his own system.

Sorry, guess I'm just in that kind of mood right now...

 

[chinto]

Who is WR Mann, and why should his opinion matter to me?




who is Jon Bluming, and why should his opinion matter to me?

It's funny, seeing people quote some yokel and expect that to add weight or meaning to their own nonsense.

Kinda like when some 12 year-old quotes Bruce Lee "discard what is useless, blah blah blah..." and thinks that justifies him founding his own system.

Sorry, guess I'm just in that kind of mood right now...

but you are right none the less. I agree.

 

[chav buster]

Exactly. It's all in there. Unfortunately this is what happens when black belts are so quick to start their own schools, teach, and from their own systems. Not enough maturity. They advance as they age but their systems, being made early and marketed stay as they are, mature very slowly, or worse--get wattered down.

most of the masters back in the day wouldnt tell you the meaning of katas sometimes for years after you had been studying them until he knew what you were like as a person.

i blame this mentality for the watering down of karate as once it was brought to the west it exploded and now what you have is a mostly flashy inpractical techniques rather then the practical martial art that it really is, i have studied many martial arts and reality based self protection systems and im get to find something thats not in karate, a good example is when i went to Geoff thompson seminar and he was talking about the verbal fence which was cutting edge at the time and all i could think was he's talking about kai. betwean judo and karate which has a large overlap but a different focus you have pretty much everything in there to one degree or another. everyone was going on about muay thai a few years back like it was the answer to stand up fighting and yes it is awesome but theres nothing in there thats not in karate, one of the first things i learned in karate was how to break the may thai clinch by cranking the neck.
now people seem to be obsesses with the crazy monkey guard but the blocks are in karate and boxing ect imo if people properly learned an art thay would be much better fighters then jumping from one to another.
my sensie is a 4th down and if you ask him he says theres still more for him to learn in karate and at my dojo we learn all the strikes self defence scenarios grappling throwing weapons multiple attackers gnp standing locks dirty tactics everyhing from how to control someone without hurting them to how to kill somneone if nesssesary and more importantly is the "do" aspect respect honour humility ect.

 

[dnovice]

yet another disgruntled student that didn't trully understand what his sifu was telling him. Who is this WR man???

That article= supreme epic fail

 

[blindsage]

Quick googling brought me to this website for WR Mann http://www.realfighting.com/

And here's the Wiki page for Jon Bluming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Bluming
the link at the bottom of the page, to his website, does not work.

 

[exile]

I read a very interesting article, an interview with Bluming, at one point some time back in which he debunked the legend of Oyama killing bulls with hand strikes. He said that once Oyama had struck an ox and obviously hurt it, though mostly shock and distress, since where he was living, oxen were cared for as pets and the ox had been given loving treatment by humans all its life. According to Bluming, Oyama felt absolutely horrible about it, and never laid a hand on an animal in anger again. Unfortunately, the link to the interview no longer appears to be up... I wish that sort of thing didn't happens so much!

 

[chinto]

All I can say is that very basic Karate saved my life years ago.. believe it or not.. I could care less.

but Okinawan Karate is still here because it does work when its for keeps.. again.. you may believe it or not as you wish.

 

[Errant108]

who is Jon Bluming, and why should his opinion matter to me?

Someone who has far more experience in using karate in violent combat than the majority of posters on this thread.

If you don't know his name, you should research it.

 

[kaizasosei]

Karate has been around for a long time. There are many types of karate. Karate doesn't focus certain strikes you see on the street, but selfdefense is up to the individual to a high degree.
I don't agree with the bulk of the stuff the article claims although there are a couple of good yet obvious points.



j

 

[seasoned]

Traditional arts contain all aspects of self defense. The problem is short sightedness in presenting it that way. A strong base for self defense involves body mechanics, "proper movement, if you will" that kata provides. The quick learning arts skip that portion, and go straight to the techniques, which gives you many options early on, but lacks the foundations of those techniques. What amazes me is the fact that most people that state that traditional karate does not work, are the ones that built their base upon those principals, and now expound there uselessness.