Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[Sukerkin]

Just to add a little visual content to the debate, here is a short documentary (15 minutes) that is nominally about Jon Bluming but also has an smattering of flavour about the 'nature of martial arts'.

I actually disagree with some of what is said, particularly about why people study martial arts but it's an interesting watch nontheless.

http://www.videosift.com/video/Documentary-on-Jon-Bluming-a-terrific-martial-artist-15m

 

[astrobiologist]

I disagree with WR Mann's approach to his article all together. I'm not sure who he is, but I doubt his knowledge of martial arts.

The 12 Immutable Reasons Why WR Mann needs to read a few books and open his mind

1. The One-Strike Kill
Agreed. One strike - one kill, likely won't be the case everytime. I don't teach my students to rely on one strike. I've never been told to rely on one strike. The idea, though, is that you have to consciously think through your strikes to make each one count.

2. Waiting for The Attack
I don't wait for an attack. A guy gets inside my presonal zone and I think beyond a doubt that he is going to strike me then I will most assuredly slap him upside his noggin. I've never told my students that they have to wait for an attack. I think what WR Mann is missing here is that we are trying to teach respect and humility. We don't go out and actively start the fight.

3. On Stances
Stances teach body movement and are good for muscular development. I don't use long, ridgid stances when I fight.

4. Karate as a Way Of Life
What is WR Mann talking about here? Wrestlers train as wrestlers. Karateka train in karate. Scientists are scientists all day and all of the night. WR Mann is silly.

5. Spirituality and Meditation
I am not religious. I do not believe in any gods or mysticism. I am a martial artist. There is no problem here.

6. Breaking Objects can Break You!
Breaking is a training tool. Same as a punching bag or a jump rope. It is a means to a goal of body strengthening.

7. The Kata Crutch
I can see where WR Mann gets this from. Many people train kata without training applications (bunkai). In that case, WR Mann is right, but when you add the applications WR Mann's argument goes out the window.

8. Karate Doesn't Prepare You for the Street
WR Mann needed a better instructor. Then maybe he would have learned that not training at all is what doesn't prepare you for the street. It's hard to replicate a street fight without getting into a street fight, but many of us try our hardest to keep things as realistic as possible.

9. Karate Makes you Stiff and Rigid
Okinawa has the highest proportion of centurians on the planet. That is because of their lifestyle and exercise. WR Mann is just too silly.

10. Karate is Ineffective Against Modern Weapons
So what, a wrestler or a street fighter is going to somehow stop a gun from taking him down at 20 paces.

11. Karate Takes Too Long to Learn, and You Still Can't Fight!
You don't learn calculus in 2nd grade. Learning is always progressive.

12. The Apotheosis of the Master
President, King, Senator, Governor, Teacher, Instructor, Master, Professor, Leader, Captain, General... Leadership always has a title of some kind...

Oh so silly, WR Mann

 

[seasoned]

I disagree with WR Mann's approach to his article all together. I'm not sure who he is, but I doubt his knowledge of martial arts.
1. The One-Strike Kill
Agreed. One strike - one kill, likely won't be the case everytime. I don't teach my students to rely on one strike. I've never been told to rely on one strike. The idea, though, is that you have to consciously think through your strikes to make each one count.

Although this is a very good point, and I do agree, there are some people that don't believe in it at all. To those people I say you have never taken a shot to the solar plexus, because if you did, you would know that for the next few minutes after, you would think, you were hit by a truck. And let me add that a few minutes of down time in a fight situation would mean you suould have stayed home.

 

[Sukerkin]

That reminds me of the tale I've told here before of the only time I've been dropped with one hit in my adult life ... by my 11 year old sister with her tiny fist that fitted just neatly under my breast-bone when we were mock fighting one day .

 

[seasoned]

Out of the mouths of babes, or fists, so to speak.

 

[astrobiologist]

Although this is a very good point, and I do agree, there are some people that don't believe in it at all. To those people I say you have never taken a shot to the solar plexus, because if you did, you would know that for the next few minutes after, you would think, you were hit by a truck. And let me add that a few minutes of down time in a fight situation would mean you suould have stayed home.

I was just watching UFC Unleashed. They showed the fight with Tito Ortiz vs. Lyotto Machida. Machida, who uses his karate experience well in MMA, kneed Ortiz in the solar plexus. Ortiz buckled over and fell to the ground. Not "one kill" per se, but that kind of infliction can result in serious wounding, even death, in a street fight.


I don't think WR Mann quite gets it. I may see why he's attacking traditional martial arts; he appears to lack an understanding of the martial arts themselves. He has the "outsider looking in" perspective. To write the way he did, he obvioulsy had some level of experience. However, he either (1) has very little experience in martial arts and did not take the time to investigate karate fully, or (2) he has a lot of experience in martial arts but he has had some very lacking instruction in karate (like those curriculums that don't include applications for forms or instructors who avoid letting their students experiment in class with semi-resistant opponents to test their technique).

I'm not trying to really blast the guy, since I have no clue who he is outside of this article he wrote. I don't like his approach to the article though. He presents some 12 "Immutable" opinions as fact without any citation or proper reference outside of his own beliefs. I've heard a lot of good arguments against a few of the things that are done in some of the TMAs, but Mr. Mann's arguments are truly lacking.

 

[K-man]

"If you're up against someone who doesn't know how to fight -- yes, old-style karate can work, but if you fight an experienced streetfighter or a trained fighter, no way!" - Jon Bluming

This quote is probably quite accurate if taken in context. Jon Bluming as a 10th dan karateka would have wasted a lifetime if he really believed what was attributed to him. I believe that 'old style' karate he refers to is the type of karate we were taught 30+ years ago. We followed blindly what we were told and had only a primative understanding of application. Good schools now teach reality based application that is probably little different to what Mann teaches in his classes. Of course he has a vested interest (read financial) in putting traditional martial art down.
To be honest, we still see a lot of karate schools here teaching the same cr*p that was taught years ago. Fortunately there are many others that have moved on. If Mann confined his remarks to schools that do not incorporate RBSD then he has some valid points. However, I read 'traditional karate' as being the karate that was taught in Okinawa before it was sanitised for Japanese school children! :asian:

 

[seasoned]

I would love to comment on old style teachings, as I know them. In the early 60's, traditional martial arts, the fighting kind, so I don't confuse it with tea ceremonies, was lacking. When I say lacking, I mean in the bunkai department. There just wasn't a lot of info out there to substantiate what we were doing. We adhered to strict guidelines on how, but not a lot on the why. We practiced all the associating drills for the certain kata, but nothing involved. Our form was great, our sparring was rigorous, but everything was looked at as sparring based. Even subsequent trips back to Okinawa, even though educational, didn't add much to our bunkai base. But now looking back, because we were faithful, and adhered to kata, as it was taught, a whole new world of information is open to those that persevered. With the onset of diligent people that have spent untold years in pursuit of, the missing links, and attached the dots, kata, for those that stayed true, has taking on a whole new meaning. Don't get me wrong, we could always fight "defend ourself", if need be, but we can do it so much better now. So I think you are correct, when calling people like Bluming and Mann on things they say, and statements they make, cutting down traditional karate. Just some thoughts.

 

[Haze]

On the "one punch kill",
lets think about it in the context of the past. Some cultures lacked any great medical or surgical abilities and if a punch cracked a rib that punctured a lung you would most likely die. Maybe not that instant but in a short time. Also with a ruptured kidney or spleen death was most likely the outcome. A broken bone that protruded through the skin could end up infected and possibly cause death.

Maybe it was the punch / kick that created the situation that caused death.

 

[K-man]

On the "one punch kill",
lets think about it in the context of the past. Some cultures lacked any great medical or surgical abilities and if a punch cracked a rib that punctured a lung you would most likely die. Maybe not that instant but in a short time. Also with a ruptured kidney or spleen death was most likely the outcome. A broken bone that protruded through the skin could end up infected and possibly cause death.

Maybe it was the punch / kick that created the situation that caused death.

And how much of this is responsible for the delayed death in Dimak? (kidneys, liver, spleen, bladder)

 

[Flying Crane]

"If you're up against someone who doesn't know how to fight -- yes, old-style karate can work, but if you fight an experienced streetfighter or a trained fighter, no way!" - Jon Bluming
​

​

who is Jon Bluming, and why should his opinion matter to me?

Someone who has far more experience in using karate in violent combat than the majority of posters on this thread.

If you don't know his name, you should research it.

So Jon Bluming has had tons of actual fights on the street, as a karate guy, and whenever he fought someone who doesn't know how to fight he won, while his battles against experienced street fighters or otherwise trained fighters, he got his *** handed to him? Is that the basis for his comment? Because that seems to be what you are saying. If as you say he has so much experience using karate in violent combat, yet he states that it's no good, then I guess he lost all the time.

Sorry, I've been in the martial arts since 1984 and I've read a lot over the years, and I've never heard of him before this. I'm simply not impressed, and I'm not really into the guru worship thing.

But then hey, I'm not even a karate guy, so I don't really have a dog in this race.

 

[Errant108]

So Jon Bluming has had tons of actual fights on the street, as a karate guy, and whenever he fought someone who doesn't know how to fight he won, while his battles against experienced street fighters or otherwise trained fighters, he got his *** handed to him? Is that the basis for his comment? Because that seems to be what you are saying. If as you say he has so much experience using karate in violent combat, yet he states that it's no good, then I guess he lost all the time.

Bluming is critical of "traditional karate"...endless repetitions of kata, no-touch or ippon sparring, etc. He is an accomplished Kyokushin & Judo competitor, and has trained championship fighters for much longer than before 1984. The fact you haven't heard of him is hardly surprising. In the US, karate has been dominated by "point sparring" and creative kata for decades. Kyokushin and other schools of full contact martial arts barely ever took hold here. Meanwhile, in Japan & in places like the Netherlands & Europe, where Bluming is fun; Kyokushin & Muay Thai took root long before they did here.

When the Gracies went around doing their Dojo Challenges, there's a reason they came to the US & cleaved through countless karate blackbelts.

Meanwhile, Bluming had integrated Judo & Kyokushin decades before & had his fighters competing in Japanese shootboxing & shootwrestling, the precursors to MMA.

When the Gracies issued their challenge in the late 80s, early 90s, Bluming accepted. The Gracies never stepped up to fight his people. Why? They already had a reputation as grapplers & stand-up fighters.

Bluming is a karateka through & through, but he is a pioneer, not a traditionalist, by any means.

I'm simply not impressed, and I'm not really into the guru worship thing.

I'd rather listen to someone who has actually been there & done that. That's not guru worship. Dismissing someone out of hand just because I haven't heard of them...that's something else entirely...

But then hey, I'm not even a karate guy, so I don't really have a dog in this race.

Well, there ya go:ultracool

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Bluming

That might help people.

 

[TimoS]

Bluming is critical of "traditional karate"...endless repetitions of kata, no-touch or ippon sparring, etc

I can understand that he is critical of those, but on the other hand, those are hardly the real traditional karate schools. To me, being a quite recent convert to okinawan karate, the only real traditional schools are those that teach the okinawan karate styles (mind you, based on what I've heard, there's a lot of really awful karate schools in Okinawa also)

 

[Errant108]

I can understand that he is critical of those, but on the other hand, those are hardly the real traditional karate schools. To me, being a quite recent convert to okinawan karate, the only real traditional schools are those that teach the okinawan karate styles (mind you, based on what I've heard, there's a lot of really awful karate schools in Okinawa also)

There is no such thing as traditional karate.

 

[Makalakumu]

There is no such thing as traditional karate.

"Traditional" karate is a mixed martial art.

 

[TimoS]

There is no such thing as traditional karate.

Oh? Why not? I happen to disagree, but that's just my opinion

 

[Errant108]

Because it has been in a state of flux, evolution, & de-evolution since its inception.

 

[seasoned]

"Traditional" karate is a mixed martial art.

That was the inteat that people just are not getting.

 

[seasoned]

Someone who has far more experience in using karate in violent combat than the majority of posters on this thread.

If you don't know his name, you should research it.

An assumption on your part.

Bluming is critical of "traditional karate"...endless repetitions of kata, no-touch or ippon sparring, etc. He is an accomplished Kyokushin & Judo competitor, and has trained championship fighters for much longer than before 1984. The fact you haven't heard of him is hardly surprising. In the US, karate has been dominated by "point sparring" and creative kata for decades. Kyokushin and other schools of full contact martial arts barely ever took hold here. Meanwhile, in Japan & in places like the Netherlands & Europe, where Bluming is fun; Kyokushin & Muay Thai took root long before they did here.

When the Gracies went around doing their Dojo Challenges, there's a reason they came to the US & cleaved through countless karate blackbelts.

Meanwhile, Bluming had integrated Judo & Kyokushin decades before & had his fighters competing in Japanese shootboxing & shootwrestling, the precursors to MMA.

When the Gracies issued their challenge in the late 80s, early 90s, Bluming accepted. The Gracies never stepped up to fight his people. Why? They already had a reputation as grapplers & stand-up fighters.

Bluming is a karateka through & through, but he is a pioneer, not a traditionalist, by any means.

endless repetitions of kata, no-touch or ippon sparring, etc.
If you feel that this is what traditional karate is, then you are mistaken.

There is no such thing as traditional karate.

They are few and far between, but they are out there.

Because it has been in a state of flux, evolution, & de-evolution since its inception.

Depends on what style you look at, and who you talk with.

 

[Makalakumu]

Because it has been in a state of...de-evolution...since its inception.

There's no such thing as de-evolution. Karate changed, that is all.