Why Krav Maga works

[Gerry Seymour]

Definitely an improvement on my impression of krav though. Which really should either be MMA lite or MMA plus. Depending on where you are trying to go with it.

Again if you can't mix with the big boys in the basics first. You just don't have the foundation to go super street.

Sorry, mechanics wise not stylistic wise. So you should be able to handle a punching kicking grappling scenario with small gloves at pace.

I don't disagree, though I won't go so far as to say someone has to be able to handle the "big boys" - assuming that refers to the monsters in competition (regardless of size). At the acme, SD training should prepare for those folks, but there's a lot to be gained long before we reach that acme. I like the idea of someone taking MMA-style training and mix of techniques and then tailoring to the "street" context. I'd love to see that, and someone probably has done that by now.

 

[drop bear]

I don't disagree, though I won't go so far as to say someone has to be able to handle the "big boys" - assuming that refers to the monsters in competition (regardless of size). At the acme, SD training should prepare for those folks, but there's a lot to be gained long before we reach that acme. I like the idea of someone taking MMA-style training and mix of techniques and then tailoring to the "street" context. I'd love to see that, and someone probably has done that by now.

My coach trains with a guy who does pretty much that. I have been meaning to do a short course but havent found the time.

Paul is also Mr Kudo for queensland or mabye Australia.


Although for me my background in street is massive. So I can kind of just fart around with sport without having to be told how to walk through a door or spot an angry person.

 

[FriedRice]

MMA gyms are not immune to poor quality.

That's very true. Many MMA gyms were once TMA gyms that converted over to MMA (w/name changes and all) b/c they were losing students to MMA. Some are legit though and produces quality fighters, especially the Karate ones. Other TMA gyms just bring in BJJ black belts or even purples to teach BJJ classes.

Many BJJ gyms aren't even MMA because full MMA is too rough and BJJ only is what really makes the $$$. They may have Muay Thai but it's still not full MMA when both classes are separate.

 

[Anarax]

What Krav Maga alliance is this that you train under?

I've trained under two different Krav instructors, attended various seminars and have sparred and trained with many KM instructors and students over the years. My point is grounded in personal training in KM and training with KM practitioners from various organizations throughout the years. I've had my fair share of exposure to KM.

Read what I said again. It was about a criteria for earning a Black Belt under Alliance.

You said

So no BS, constant start & stop type, light contact fighting.

Does this not mean you see constant start/stop type and light contact as BS? I interpreted the training you referred to after "BS" was what you categorize as "BS". Did I misunderstand you?

Then tell me, what did my KM Instructor incorporate into his KM class that's not apart of the KM curriculum?

The "MMA Lite" comment in general covers it. KM is a Self-Defense system, there can be variations on training methods, but it's still a self-defense system. Defending yourself against someone on the street and being able to compete on the professional level aren't the same thing. The focus, training, conditioning, tactics, strategies and even the techniques to a certain degree are different.

 

[FriedRice]

I've trained under two different Krav instructors, attended various seminars and have sparred and trained with many KM instructors and students over the years. My point is grounded in personal training in KM and training with KM practitioners from various organizations throughout the years. I've had my fair share of exposure to KM.

Groupons right?

You said
Does this not mean you see constant start/stop type and light contact as BS? I interpreted the training you referred to after "BS" was what you categorize as "BS". Did I misunderstand you?

Yes.

The "MMA Lite" comment in general covers it. KM is a Self-Defense system, there can be variations on training methods, but it's still a self-defense system. Defending yourself against someone on the street and being able to compete on the professional level aren't the same thing. The focus, training, conditioning, tactics, strategies and even the techniques to a certain degree are different.

Yea, this is what a Level 1 Intro is taught.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My coach trains with a guy who does pretty much that. I have been meaning to do a short course but havent found the time.

Paul is also Mr Kudo for queensland or mabye Australia.


Although for me my background in street is massive. So I can kind of just fart around with sport without having to be told how to walk through a door or spot an angry person.

Yeah, most folks don't have the background to not need some translation to context.

I'll have to poke around and see if anyone is doing something similar anywhere around here. Would be interesting to go to.

 

[DaveB]

There are so many falacies in that video.

Ok. The big one.

I get that in a street fight your order of priorities might change. So lets say I have a guy sitting on me in a jujitsu match my aim is to reverse that position and do a submission.

Where lets say in a street fight my aim is to stand up pull out a mobile phone and ring the police.

The fundamental dynamics of fighting dont change with the change in priorities. I still have to be able to exert my will on a person who wants to exert their will on me.

To justify a system you need evidence of being able to do that.

This is why boxing that has a completely different focus to jujitsu are both seen as effective self defence. Because they can provide this evidence.

If you can't provide that then every piece of clever logic you are using doesn't matter.

The thing I fundamentally disagree with you on is that the technique, [punch in the face], is somehow different for boxing than in Krav or even Wing Chun.

For me the fact that the [punch in the face] technique works in boxing serves as evidence for all systems that employ it.

Also you are basically asking all systems of fighting to be combat sports in order to provide your evidence, which is just unreasonable.

 

[FriedRice]

And while we are at it. Style doesn't matter?

What's crazy was that even with this bad technique, she dismantled Miesha Tate in their 2nd fight, standing up pretty badly....to the point that Tate (who was bragging about how her standup was much better during their season on The Ultimate Fighter together).....had to panic wrestle her to get away from her boxing.

Then she whooped the hell out of Bethe Correia and KO'ed her standing up, and Correia is also known for standup, wild brawling only and had an undefeated record....I guess that's why there's MMA and WMMA.

 

[drop bear]

The thing I fundamentally disagree with you on is that the technique, [punch in the face], is somehow different for boxing than in Krav or even Wing Chun.

For me the fact that the [punch in the face] technique works in boxing serves as evidence for all systems that employ it.

Also you are basically asking all systems of fighting to be combat sports in order to provide your evidence, which is just unreasonable.

You could test it. Get your krav/chun school to compete in a boxing match.

If punching is basically the same they will hold up.

I mean we can look to people like Bec Rawlings who say MMA punching and bare knuckle punching are basically the same. Because she has done both.

By the way. How else do you test your system if not in combat sport?

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, most folks don't have the background to not need some translation to context.

I'll have to poke around and see if anyone is doing something similar anywhere around here. Would be interesting to go to.

There would have to be a civilian Mc Map or combatives lurking around somewhere.

You just have to separate what you can do from what would be cool if you could do.

 

[drop bear]

The "MMA Lite" comment in general covers it. KM is a Self-Defense system, there can be variations on training methods, but it's still a self-defense system. Defending yourself against someone on the street and being able to compete on the professional level aren't the same thing. The focus, training, conditioning, tactics, strategies and even the techniques to a

Not really in terms of obvious overlap.

So what I mean there is there are very few positions you will find yourself fighting in self defence that are not reflected in MMA.

Even weapons have about the same space and timing. Just different order of priorities.

By the way. At least being able to compete in an ammy fight. With that full pace and intent should give an indication of how you will react in self defence.

 

[Anarax]

Groupons right?

Yes, over the years I've trained martial arts and trained with KM instructors and students both formally and informally, I always showed my groupon. Before we sparred or drilled I always showed them my 50% off groupon . When the KM instructor would ask me for my input on a technique I might have had more experience with given my background, he showed me his groupon.

Yea, this is what a Level 1 Intro is taught.

That is what your KM system teaches at level 1, many other KM schools have different curriculum.

 

[Anarax]

Not really in terms of obvious overlap.

So what I mean there is there are very few positions you will find yourself fighting in self defence that are not reflected in MMA.

The biggest difference is SD mostly focuses on survival while MMA/Competition is more focused on winning. I understand there's overlap, but the overall objective is usually different.

Even weapons have about the same space and timing. Just different order of priorities.

Are you referring to weapon defense?

By the way. At least being able to compete in an ammy fight. With that full pace and intent should give an indication of how you will react in self defence.

I agree that being able to compete in an amateur fight is a good stress test. However, my original point was this approach isn't common in the KM community.

 

[FriedRice]

Yes, over the years I've trained martial arts and trained with KM instructors and students both formally and informally, I always showed my groupon. Before we sparred or drilled I always showed them my 50% off groupon . When the KM instructor would ask me for my input on a technique I might have had more experience with given my background, he showed me his groupon.

.

That sounds about right.

 

[drop bear]

The biggest difference is SD mostly focuses on survival while MMA/Competition is more focused on winning. I understand there's overlap, but the overall objective is usually different.



Are you referring to weapon defense?



I agree that being able to compete in an amateur fight is a good stress test. However, my original point was this approach isn't common in the KM community.

The overall objective isn't all that important so long as you can solve all the little objectives along the way.

I agree that as described is not common. But if that is the way they are going I think it is the better path.

 

[DaveB]

You could test it. Get your krav/chun school to compete in a boxing match.

If punching is basically the same they will hold up.

I mean we can look to people like Bec Rawlings who say MMA punching and bare knuckle punching are basically the same. Because she has done both.

By the way. How else do you test your system if not in combat sport?

Well Krav takes feedback from the police and military who use it. Live trials.

The thing is there is testing an art to see if it is effective and testing the self to see if you are effective.
For the art, they don't need to provide you with proof. For the self, sure testing is part of training and sport is a great way to train.

And boxing is only a valid test if the Krav guy can use Krav, which boxing doesn't allow.

BTW boxing sucks because boxers lose in every single boxing match.

 

[Anarax]

The overall objective isn't all that important so long as you can solve all the little objectives along the way.

Your objectives determine what techniques you're going to use though. For example, if survival is your objective then voluntarily going to the ground with someone to pull guard isn't the best thing to do. It's great to know what to do if you find yourself on the ground, but intentionally putting yourself there in a self-defense scenario isn't ideal. However, in an MMA bout pulling guard is a better idea because you're facing a single opponent, are in the same weight class and you know your opponent isn't carrying any concealed weapons.

There are even more differences between SD vs amateur boxing/kickboxing matches. I think the psychological ability of being able to deal with adrenaline in a spectated fight is important, but the tactical/strategic aspects are quite different from SD.

 

[drop bear]

Your objectives determine what techniques you're going to use though. For example, if survival is your objective then voluntarily going to the ground with someone to pull guard isn't the best thing to do. It's great to know what to do if you find yourself on the ground, but intentionally putting yourself there in a self-defense scenario isn't ideal. However, in an MMA bout pulling guard is a better idea because you're facing a single opponent, are in the same weight class and you know your opponent isn't carrying any concealed weapons.

There are even more differences between SD vs amateur boxing/kickboxing matches. I think the psychological ability of being able to deal with adrenaline in a spectated fight is important, but the tactical/strategic aspects are quite different from SD.

The people who make these distinctions are kind of looking at the problem through the wrong lens.

And your knowledge of MMA tactics is kind of wrong.

Self defence is a puzzle. And you need a bunch of different tools to solve that puzzle.

The idea that you can pre solve a situation that you haven't experienced yet mostly doesn't work.

I will find that Martian speech again which explains my process here a bit better.

So for example. If jumping guard stops me from getting my head punched in at that moment. I will jump guard. Because gaining a second of respite is worth the risk of them possibly having a weapon. Now once I have jumped guard. I can solve the weapon problem and technical stand up. From there I may have a new issue and i solve that.

And so on.

Self defence just isn't this script based story that people think it is.

 

[Anarax]

Self defence is a puzzle. And you need a bunch of different tools to solve that puzzle.

Your comment is more so referring to adaption which I don't disagree with. Training from bad positions is a good approach for it trains you to gain a dominant position from a non-dominant one.

The idea that you can pre solve a situation that you haven't experienced yet mostly doesn't work.

I'm not saying I will use techniques X, Y and Z regardless of circumstance. It's more so understanding SD tactics/strategies, thus training techniques that correlate with said tactics/strategies.

I will find that Martian speech again which explains my process here a bit better.

The Martian is an amazing movie. SPOILER ALERT!!! Mark Watney never voluntarily put himself in a non-dominate position, he was completely at the mercy of faulty equipment and lack of resources. This is where the training from non-dominate positions comes into play and that's exactly what he did to improve his situation and eventually return home.

So for example. If jumping guard stops me from getting my head punched in at that moment. I will jump guard. Because gaining a second of respite is worth the risk of them possibly having a weapon. Now once I have jumped guard. I can solve the weapon problem and technical stand up. From there I may have a new issue and i solve that.

There is a hierarchy of positions in which some have inherent advantages over others. For example, having your opponent in full-mount is more advantageous than being the one mounted. Do what's necessary to survive while trying to maintain a dominant position is important.

Self defence just isn't this script based story that people think it is.

I'm not talking about a set script to go off of, but understanding SD tactics/strategies will vary from MMA tactics/strategies because the goals and dynamics are different. Is there overlap? Absolutely. But there are differences as well.

 

[drop bear]

There is a hierarchy of positions in which some have inherent advantages over others. For example, having your opponent in full-mount is more advantageous than being the one mounted. Do what's necessary to survive while trying to maintain a dominant position is important.

There are circumstances where you need to give up a position to fight off an attack. Oma plata. If you roll they will wind up on top. If you don't you can get your arm broken.

Solve one problem then solve the next.

There is no point being a freaking awesome jujitsu guy and getting your head smashed in trying to box with a guy.

What you would need to do is weigh up the likleyhood of winning stand up vs the likleyhood of going to the ground making your situation worse.

Bcause going to the ground in a jump guard is risky. But falling over unconscious is riskier.

Now all of this isn't to say people should jump guard. MMAguys basically don't do it. It is about how you mentally process your problem solving.