Why Krav Maga works

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the inside slip is basically a different thing.

Can you explain why? I see sort of a continuum between block-then-strike and block-strike, and that inside slip and immediate counter is close to the block-strike end of that continuum.

 

[FriedRice]

Nobody ever really pulls that shot off live.

I did hocks system for about 3years and I drilled that move. And because this was before I understood the difference between what works and what would be cool if it works I thought it would be perfect to try on my friend who threw a ton of overhand rights.

Guess what? I spent a year on it and made it work maybe once. Which isn't a very good success rate for self defence.

He wouldn't understand this because he doesn't really train Krav Maga. He only drops in or buys a groupon, or whatever....probably watches a lot of YouTube intro videos to Krav, which is what is sold to Level 1 people in order to get them excited about joining.

Level 2 Krav sparring looks just like this video, which is basically Kickboxing. The taller guy in this video, I would guess, is nearing Level 3 because most of the Level 2's I've sparred with, aren't as good.

 

[Anarax]

He wouldn't understand this because he doesn't really train Krav Maga. He only drops in or buys a groupon, or whatever....probably watches a lot of YouTube intro videos to Krav

 

[drop bear107]

Can you explain why? I see sort of a continuum between block-then-strike and block-strike, and that inside slip and immediate counter is close to the block-strike end of that continuum.

one difference is with a slip you are not neccesarily reacting to a punch. You are just moving your head around

The block then strike means you need to only move one arm.

And the simultaneous block strike means you need to move your whole body in reaction to a strike. Which is increadably hard to do at speed.

I think there is some range issues as well. I remember going in to the simultaneous block and strike. Which shortens the time I have to do it.

 

[FriedRice]

nothing wrong with training on a groupon.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

one difference is with a slip you are not neccesarily reacting to a punch. You are just moving your head around

The block then strike means you need to only move one arm.

And the simultaneous block strike means you need to move your whole body in reaction to a strike. Which is increadably hard to do at speed.

I think there is some range issues as well. I remember going in to the simultaneous block and strike. Which shortens the time I have to do it.

Ah. See, I interpret that as I do many things in TMA. We're taught the "beginner's version", and progress beyond it as we learn. So, in the drill, you react to the punch and both block and strike are a result of the punch. In sparring, the "block" is usually more of a brush or cover as you're moving in for your own punch. So, yeah, it uses both hands, but in wise ways. It looks vastly different from a boxing cover while slipping to punch, but only until you get past the "beginner's version".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

nothing wrong with training on a groupon.

There is something wrong with trolling, though.

 

[drop bear107]

Ah. See, I interpret that as I do many things in TMA. We're taught the "beginner's version", and progress beyond it as we learn. So, in the drill, you react to the punch and both block and strike are a result of the punch. In sparring, the "block" is usually more of a brush or cover as you're moving in for your own punch. So, yeah, it uses both hands, but in wise ways. It looks vastly different from a boxing cover while slipping to punch, but only until you get past the "beginner's version".

Why on earth would you bother with a beginner's version?

Good head movement or covering isn't exactly complicated in a technical sense.

 

[Anarax]

And the simultaneous block strike means you need to move your whole body in reaction to a strike. Which is increadably hard to do at speed.

If you're breaking in on the inside then yeah you're right. However, the attack in the video was a wild haymaker, thus an inside entry isn't a bad technique to use. People will usually fully commit to a haymaker, thus you don't have a lot of distance to cover with the block-punch.

That's not to say there aren't trade-offs for simultaneous block-attacks. Because both arms are extended you won't be able to generate significant power with your strike for you can't commit to one side.

I think there is some range issues as well. I remember going in to the simultaneous block and strike. Which shortens the time I have to do it.

The range is definitely closer, but the guys in the video used a vertical punch instead which are better to use in close range. Training the simultaneous block-attacks can be tricky. There not always always the best technique to use and you don't want to misjudge the situation and use it when you shouldn't. However, you could say the same about any technique. There are definitely situations where the technique would be useful, mostly against the untrained.

 

[Anarax]

nothing wrong with training on a groupon.

The same "insult"? Boring

You haven't addressed the technical points I've made in this thread and others, thus re-typing them would be a waste of time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why on earth would you bother with a beginner's version?

Good head movement or covering isn't exactly complicated in a technical sense.

It's a common approach in a lot of Japanese TMA. Most of us (folks trained in Japanese TMA-ish systems) learned a straight punch from a static stance with the opposite hand retracting to hip or ribs. That's not something you're likely to see in actual application - just a starting position for teaching the principles. Same goes for learning the front kick (rear leg straight kick, not sure what others call that) from a "front stance", rather than fighting stance, and often with hands on hips to help stop beginners from using the "flailing arms for balance" stance. I still find some things are easier for students to learn this way, while others they seem to pick up faster from a more practical "near application" position.

You're right that head movement and covering aren't terribly technical. I see too little head movement (and level changing) trained in many TMA schools. I do see cover trained, and it just sort of bleeds in over time. But none of that is trained with the initial movements. I do wonder if some of that training approach was picked up from Japanese martial arts moving into the schools, as an adaptation to using them primarily to teach movement to children (without concern for fighting skill).

 

[drop bear107]

It's a common approach in a lot of Japanese TMA. Most of us (folks trained in Japanese TMA-ish systems) learned a straight punch from a static stance with the opposite hand retracting to hip or ribs. That's not something you're likely to see in actual application - just a starting position for teaching the principles. Same goes for learning the front kick (rear leg straight kick, not sure what others call that) from a "front stance", rather than fighting stance, and often with hands on hips to help stop beginners from using the "flailing arms for balance" stance. I still find some things are easier for students to learn this way, while others they seem to pick up faster from a more practical "near application" position.

You're right that head movement and covering aren't terribly technical. I see too little head movement (and level changing) trained in many TMA schools. I do see cover trained, and it just sort of bleeds in over time. But none of that is trained with the initial movements. I do wonder if some of that training approach was picked up from Japanese martial arts moving into the schools, as an adaptation to using them primarily to teach movement to children (without concern for fighting skill).

And you think that is in line with the whole krav teaching people to fight theme?

Look my guess is the theory is that it works in the drills. So it has to work right?

Which is a very common progression in rbsd.

 

[drop bear107]

Those are important factors, but if we are talking about a MMAist then they should be able to "defend" themselves from a big roid rager. That doesn't mean they have to KO the rager, but they can at least maintain distance and not get destroyed. Nothing is a guarantee, but the rigors of MMA should prepare them for that.

I did read the noobs thread, I believe most people's advice was for him to train more, which I agree with.

How many roid ragers have you fought?

I have given up 40kg on some guys I have had to fight.

 

[drop bear107]

You are statically more likely to encounter an untrained person vs trained.

Is there statistics on that?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And you think that is in line with the whole krav teaching people to fight theme?

Look my guess is the theory is that it works in the drills. So it has to work right?

Which is a very common progression in rbsd.

I'm not familiar with KM training methods, but since they've borrowed from other arts, I suspect they've picked up some of the training methods along the way, too. I don't think using these starting versions slows learning down in any measurable way, unless they don't progress away from the starting version (which I've seen happen). It'd be akin to teaching a guard pass in 5 steps with a static partner, and never proceeding to the next part of the learning process.

 

[drop bear107]

I'm not familiar with KM training methods, but since they've borrowed from other arts, I suspect they've picked up some of the training methods along the way, too. I don't think using these starting versions slows learning down in any measurable way, unless they don't progress away from the starting version (which I've seen happen). It'd be akin to teaching a guard pass in 5 steps with a static partner, and never proceeding to the next part of the learning process.

Well it is like teaching a silly guard pass in however many steps you want. And then later on having to teach a decent guard pass.

Which BJJ did there for a while. With that one arm under guard pass. Which relies on the guy you are passing to undersand guard but have never heard of a tryangle choke before.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well it is like teaching a silly guard pass in however many steps you want. And then later on having to teach a decent guard pass.

Which BJJ did there for a while. With that one arm under guard pass. Which relies on the guy you are passing to undersand guard but have never heard of a tryangle choke before.

I'm not familiar with that one (or am, and don't know it's silly), but yeah, I think that's a reasonable comparison. One issue with the TMA approach is that it tends to stick the "T" in that abbreviation, especially in training methodology. BJJ doesn't tend to have that problem - one of the things I like about the "common" BJJ approach.

 

[FriedRice]

The same "insult"? Boring

You haven't addressed the technical points I've made in this thread and others, thus re-typing them would be a waste of time.

What insult? You admitted to only dropping in on Krav gyms and not really training seriously there. Most people do this through GROUPONS.

And I asked you what federation your Krav gym falls under, and you didn't know. I'm pretty sure you train with the Level 1 people because what you convey about Krav, is pretty much what the L1's are taught.

 

[Anarax]

How many roid ragers have you fought?

I've had to defend myself against a much larger opponent on the street. I've sparred numerous heavily muscular students as well.

Is there statistics on that?

Yes, it varies by country, but in the US it's about 5 percent, in Australia it's less than 2 percent.

 

[Anarax]

What insult? You admitted to only dropping in on Krav gyms and not really training seriously there. Most people do this through GROUPONS.

My comment about groupon was so heavily laced with sarcasm I'm surprised you interpreted it literally.

Your comments about me learning from YouTube videos and not sparring are insult attempts. You simply resort to insulting opposed to having civil discourse.

And I asked you what federation your Krav gym falls under, and you didn't know.

Yeah, I haven't nor do I place emphasis on alliances and organizations. My KM instructor was a very skilled and knowledgeable Martial Artist. Not knowing the name of the organization he was certified under doesn't change the quality nor the legitimacy of his training.