Why is WTF/KKW TKD More Expensive Than Other Arts?

donnaTKD

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i live in Llanfairfechan now :) i'm fazakerly born and toxteth bred and the muay thai centre i use is indeed wolf gym dojo at bridgefoot.

the TKD centre is about 2 miles from my front door in Penmeanmawr --- try writing this when you're not awake lol ;) i'e got a lot of contacts and friends in warrington and have been going to their gym for long time :) the TKD centre was just to try summat different that was closer to home and for me work too :)

most of my work comes about through Ranges rally track near Bala north wales so for me it paid to be located where i am plus i have a 3000ft mountain in my back yard and the irish sea virtually in my front yard :) :) :) :)
 

WaterGal

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To me, the bit about time for belt promotions is the only thing that sounds good about that TKD place. Lots of TKD schools schedule belt promotions every 2-3 months in order to soak the students for belt test fees.

KKW TKD is set up to go from white to 1st Dan in 2 years. If somebody's making you wait 4 months to test, it's generally to soak you for tuition fees. (Assuming you come to class regularly and practice, of course.) However, if the class is only 1x per week, then testing every other month would be pretty ambitious. I recommend students come 2-4x per week.
 

donnaTKD

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i did some thinking a by my reckoning it would cost around £2500 for a white to 1st dan tkd course :( so not worth it bit like the guys at wolf gym that charge very high training fees for very little in return.

my new MT training centre that doesn't do belts or anything but just cracks on training to cage standard with a stable of fighters to back it up and the training centre is for everyone so the newbies get mixed in with the experienced fighters and gain experience that way too :)
 

skribs

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KKW TKD is set up to go from white to 1st Dan in 2 years. If somebody's making you wait 4 months to test, it's generally to soak you for tuition fees. (Assuming you come to class regularly and practice, of course.) However, if the class is only 1x per week, then testing every other month would be pretty ambitious. I recommend students come 2-4x per week.

That depends on the school. The schools I've been to scoff at that 2 year "rush" to get the black belt, saying you probably won't be a very competent black belt with only 2 years experience. 3-5 years is the average in my schools. I don't feel that it's to stretch out the tuition fees, either.
 

Gnarlie

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I agree. It takes about 4 years where I come from, and that's because you want to stand out as better than everybody else at the 1st dan gradings. There are typically a couple of hundred people there, and you want to be in the top 5 percent. It also takes longer if your teacher raises you to be a teacher.

Gnarlie
 

donnaTKD

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wolf gym also offers it's own black belt course - white to black in 18months (18 x £120) training 3 times a week and from what i saw - one of their current black belts would get trashed in a cage.

cheshire martial arts don't claim to be anything that they're not - there is no belted course it's a case of you want to fight then we'll get you to that stage and all for £10 for a 2 hour session :) they've also got the track record to back it up :)
 

Gnarlie

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I guess it depends what you want out of training, whether fighting is your goal or you're looking for something else. I do prefer when places are honest about what they are actually offering though.

Gnarlie
 

donnaTKD

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it made a refreshing change to hear him talk so bluntly about it :)

the guy i spoke to at CMA said that he could make me cage ready in about 2/3 months which i thought was pushing things a bit mormal timeline is 5/6 months to be really competitive in the cage without getting too trashed :) 20years of my life has been dedicated to muay thai so i know the risks involved but the price just doesn't seem to be worth it anymore.

i've spoken to him since and he said that given my background if i wanted to try for coaching awards then they'd help me do that as well --- i'm not getting any younger, i've still got the body, speed, reflexes and knowledge to fight in a cage and win but old age says back out sooner rather than later.
 

WaterGal

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That depends on the school. The schools I've been to scoff at that 2 year "rush" to get the black belt, saying you probably won't be a very competent black belt with only 2 years experience. 3-5 years is the average in my schools. I don't feel that it's to stretch out the tuition fees, either.

What are they covering in those 3-5 years, beyond the standard KKW curriculum? I'm assuming they must be teaching other things, such as grappling or weapons work - which are valuable, but not part of the KKW requirements.

As I understand it, in Korea KKW schools usually give a black belt after one year, which does seem like a rush to me. But there's really no reason why someone over the age of 7 should take more than a month to learn a Taegeuk form if they're coming to class regularly - they're really not that complicated. It's just good IMO to take another month or two to make it look sharp. Sparring takes practice, but if you're doing it 30+ minutes every week for 2 years you'll get it, and none of the standard kicks shy of 540 or scissor are hard enough that you need 3+ years to learn them.
 

skribs

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It's not just about the curriculum, but about the skills. My school has a much broader curriculum that includes self defense drills, grappling, and basic striking combos, (and we do the palgwe forms, and he's taken a lot of liberties with 6-8 to make them much more difficult), and I'm sure I could do black belt in 1 year following the curriculum. However...

Skipping ahead just because I'm good at forms isn't going to give me the experience I need. I can memorize a 20-or-so step form pretty quick, but the flexibility, conditioning, sparring experience, technique, etc. all take time. If all you're doing is rushing through the KKW Taeguk forms, then you're basically learning dance IMHO. I would much rather be a green belt and feel I've earned it through my martial arts technique vs. be a black belt and feel I earned it through my knowledge of a 20-step form.
 

Gnarlie

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What are they covering in those 3-5 years, beyond the standard KKW curriculum? I'm assuming they must be teaching other things, such as grappling or weapons work - which are valuable, but not part of the KKW requirements.


No, just KKW syllabus so that it works and is applicable. The difference is we teach people to understand the fundamental principles behind what they are doing rather than just repeating it parrot fashion. We enable improvisation, not just in sparring but in every aspect.
As I understand it, in Korea KKW schools usually give a black belt after one year, which does seem like a rush to me. But there's really no reason why someone over the age of 7 should take more than a month to learn a Taegeuk form if they're coming to class regularly - they're really not that complicated.
I disagree, but that totally depends on your frame of reference.
It's just good IMO to take another month or two to make it look sharp. Sparring takes practice, but if you're doing it 30+ minutes every week for 2 years you'll get it, and none of the standard kicks shy of 540 or scissor are hard enough that you need 3+ years to learn them.

Again, I disagree respectfully. The further you go, the more you see. I'm still working on kicks now that I thought I had down at 1st Dan. I'm able to see issues now that I couldn't see then.



Gnarlie
 

Dirty Dog

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What are they covering in those 3-5 years, beyond the standard KKW curriculum? I'm assuming they must be teaching other things, such as grappling or weapons work - which are valuable, but not part of the KKW requirements.

As I understand it, in Korea KKW schools usually give a black belt after one year, which does seem like a rush to me. But there's really no reason why someone over the age of 7 should take more than a month to learn a Taegeuk form if they're coming to class regularly - they're really not that complicated. It's just good IMO to take another month or two to make it look sharp. Sparring takes practice, but if you're doing it 30+ minutes every week for 2 years you'll get it, and none of the standard kicks shy of 540 or scissor are hard enough that you need 3+ years to learn them.

If you're happy with students who can mimic moves, but can neither apply them not grasp the principles behind them, then this is probably reasonable.

I'm not, nor is my Master, nor our Kwanjang, so we will stick with a much longer period between belts.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.
 
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It takes about 4 years where I come from, and that's because you want to stand out as better than everybody else at the 1st dan gradings. There are typically a couple of hundred people there, and you want to be in the top 5 percent.
Does this mean that there are other schools testing at the same time?
 
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Gwai Lo Dan

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Yes, the grading is run by the national governing body, so every school wanting to grade tests together.

Gnarlie
I like the idea of a national body doing the testing - I am sure it keeps the fees reasonable.

In order to test, do you have to be with a school, or can anyone show up and do as requested to pass?
 

Gnarlie

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I like the idea of a national body doing the testing - I am sure it keeps the fees reasonable.

In order to test, do you have to be with a school, or can anyone show up and do as requested to pass?

You have to be recommended by a KKW 4th dan or higher to grade for 1st dan. You also have to have membership of the NGB, which basically means sports insurance through them for about £20 a year.

To grade for 4th or higher, you have to recommended by a member of the NGB board.

It works. The failure rate varies between 30% and 60% for 1st dan IIRC. Which is why it worth taking the extra time to make sure you stand out for the right reasons.

I think my first dan test was £100.

Gnarlie
 

skribs

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Failure rate for 1st Dan is very low at my school, from what I've seen, but there are also people who have been 1st Keub since I started that are still not black belts.
 

Archtkd

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I like the idea of a national body doing the testing - I am sure it keeps the fees reasonable.

In order to test, do you have to be with a school, or can anyone show up and do as requested to pass?
It can (it actually happens) also be a way for a corrupt and incompetetnt few to bilk and control taekwondoin in their country.
 

WaterGal

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It's not just about the curriculum, but about the skills. My school has a much broader curriculum that includes self defense drills, grappling, and basic striking combos, (and we do the palgwe forms, and he's taken a lot of liberties with 6-8 to make them much more difficult), and I'm sure I could do black belt in 1 year following the curriculum. However...

Skipping ahead just because I'm good at forms isn't going to give me the experience I need. I can memorize a 20-or-so step form pretty quick, but the flexibility, conditioning, sparring experience, technique, etc. all take time. If all you're doing is rushing through the KKW Taeguk forms, then you're basically learning dance IMHO. I would much rather be a green belt and feel I've earned it through my martial arts technique vs. be a black belt and feel I earned it through my knowledge of a 20-step form.

Gotcha, so you're doing Hapkido-type stuff too. For us, we have an separate HKD program at the school, so if people want to do grappling and self-defense drills they can take that instead/in addition, but it's a totally different class. For TKD class, we stick to WTF sparring, Taegeuk forms, kicking, combos, sparring drills, cardio drills, etc, and then weapons training at black belt.

I couldn't agree more about the "basically learning dance" thing, though. Forms are good, but I think generally they shouldn't take up more than 10-20 minutes of the class. I've trained with or taught a number of people who've come from schools that spent most of the class on forms, and their sparring and often their kicking were just kind of terrible.
 

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