Why is WTF/KKW TKD More Expensive Than Other Arts?

Gnarlie

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TKD is expensive because 95% of the schools in the US are belt factories out to generate max profit. TKD is not what it once was and I found it to be a waste of time and an even bigger waste of money in my experience. You are MUCH better off training in a more well rounded art that has its focus on combat, not sport ring-sparring.

And 85.62% of statistics are made up on the spot.

There are plenty of good TKD schools out there if you know what to look for.



Gnarlie
 

Jaeimseu

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And 85.62% of statistics are made up on the spot.

There are plenty of good TKD schools out there if you know what to look for.



Gnarlie

Real martial artists shun money. People who accept money for instruction are corrupting the purity of the martial arts.

In fact, people in other professions--teachers, LEO, firefighters, soldiers--should also not receive any money for their service. They should do their jobs out of a sense of duty and personal pride.

And people should certainly never seek to ever get more money. That's preposterous!!!

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Rumy73

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I have no problem with profiting from teaching tkd. I do take issue with how fees are woven into a student's journey. Frankly, if a school handed over a sheet of paper that laid out all the associated costs from white to blackbelt, I would feel differently. Another point, people may really not know what they want out of tkd or any art until they put in some time. I have taken away great things from tkd training and left others behind.
 
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Gwai Lo Dan

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In fact, people in other professions--teachers, LEO, firefighters, soldiers--should also not receive any money for their service. They should do their jobs out of a sense of duty and personal pride.
Maybe this is sacireligious to say, but I don't have the same worship and sense of thanks that most people do towards police, firefighters and military.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the job they do and have no particular issues with them. But the reason probably 99% of the people chose these fields was that it was the best paying, most interesting job for them. It wasn't a sense of obligation. In Canada, police and firefighting pays around $100k with overtime, and they have great pensions. Consequently, these jobs are VERY much sought after.

I'll add that I joined the military for basic military training after high school and before university, since for me it was the best paying, most interesting job I could get in the summer to help finance my studies.

For those who did chose these fields out of obligation, thanks. For the 99% of the others, I give the same respect and thanks -no more and no less - that I give to any other worker.

Adam Smith said "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.". The baker bakes bread out of his own interest, not charity to others. Other occupations are pretty much the same IMO.
 
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Gnarlie

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Except you don't risk your life baking bread. Today really seems to be a day for pulling numbers out of thin air, so here goes:

About 9o% of the negative stuff you read on the internet about Taekwondo turns out not to be true in real life.

Gnarlie
 
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Gwai Lo Dan

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Are you saying you think most people join the police or firefighting out of societal obligation or moral duty?
 

Gnarlie

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Are you saying you think most people join the police or firefighting out of societal obligation or moral duty?

I think the reasons are different for everyone and it's impossible to generalise, but those professions are a vocation for many. I also think that society doesn't owe the same debt of gratitude to a butcher or baker as they do a police officer or soldier.

Gnarlie
 
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Gwai Lo Dan

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Agree to disagree I suppose. I see construction work being in the same ballpark in terms of danger, yet it doesn't have the same societal deference. Again I don't belittle people contributions in the police etc., but when people sign up for the pay ($100k in Canada), or power, or pension, then the societal good is to me simply a positive externality of their own preference. Again, agree to disagree.
 

Rumy73

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Agree to disagree I suppose. I see construction work being in the same ballpark in terms of danger, yet it doesn't have the same societal deference. Again I don't belittle people contributions in the police etc., but when people sign up for the pay ($100k in Canada), or power, or pension, then the societal good is to me simply a positive externality of their own preference. Again, agree to disagree.

I agree. Police and fire tend to self aggrandize and often overplay the danger of the job. I am not saying it does not come without risk but these folks are typically well compensated.
 

WaterGal

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Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the job they do and have no particular issues with them. But the reason probably 99% of the people chose these fields was that it was the best paying, most interesting job for them. It wasn't a sense of obligation. In Canada, police and firefighting pays around $100k with overtime, and they have great pensions. Consequently, these jobs are VERY much sought after.

That was the point, yeah? People don't work their butt off and take out $100k in loans to start a martial arts school just out of some spiritual sense or social obligation. They're looking to earn a living by teaching people, which means charging tuition and fees.

Some folks have this idea that a "real" martial arts teacher isn't doing it to earn a living and that having a business corrupts the true purity of whatever. I think they saw Karate Kid or some movie with a wise old martial arts master living in a mountain temple teaching people for free and think that's how it really is.
 

jks9199

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Folks,
I'm at a bit of a loss to see what police, fire fighter, educator, or plumber salaries have to do with the cost of WTF/KKW instruction. How about we try to swing back on topic, OK?
 

skribs

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Some folks have this idea that a "real" martial arts teacher isn't doing it to earn a living and that having a business corrupts the true purity of whatever. I think they saw Karate Kid or some movie with a wise old martial arts master living in a mountain temple teaching people for free and think that's how it really is.

I haven't run a martial arts school, but I have seen Ip Man 2. I remember in that movie he ended any friendly conversation with his students or prospective students with "...and when can you pay your school fees?"

I think what people are complaining about is the hidden inflation as you get higher and higher belt. Most places are run by martial artists, not business majors, so you can't really blame them. They didn't go to school to learn management skills and customer service; they went to martial arts classes to learn martial arts. The various instructors I've had over the years have been a nurse, a couple military instructors, a world-level competitor, and a pastor. Their education has been in the medical field or in counseling. Even so, it can be disheartening to learn that the deeper you go, the more expensive it's going to get, especially if there is a huge jump for dan tests.
 
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Gwai Lo Dan

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I haven't run a martial arts school, but I have seen Ip Man 2. I remember in that movie he ended any friendly conversation with his students or prospective students with "...and when can you pay your school fees?"

On the other hand, there is Ip Man: The Legend is Born. At the end of the clip, the master offers lessons, and the student says he doesn't have any money. The master says "Did I ask you to pay?".

 
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skribs

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That master is old and has already saved up enough from working and teaching in order to live out the rest of his life comfortably, but wanted to pass on his wisdom, whereas Ip Man was a youngish man in his prime who still had to earn a living, especially after losing his family fortune.

That's the only excuse I could think of to justify my explanation above :p
 

donnaTKD

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my muay thai classes are £120 per month for 12 sessions (3 per week) -- attendance is limited to 10 students at a time and the school is open 7 days a week - any extra sessions are charged at £10 per session (1 hour)

my TKD classes are £160 per month for 4 sessions (1 per week) -- attendance is open to however many they can get through the door (usually about 30) and the school is only available once a week with no option for other sessions.

go figure

i'd far rather carry on learning how to literally kick someone to death than try and understand a sensei that's pre-occupied with everything else that he's got going on.............JMO

donna
 

Gnarlie

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my muay thai classes are £120 per month for 12 sessions (3 per week) -- attendance is limited to 10 students at a time and the school is open 7 days a week - any extra sessions are charged at £10 per session (1 hour)

my TKD classes are £160 per month for 4 sessions (1 per week) -- attendance is open to however many they can get through the door (usually about 30) and the school is only available once a week with no option for other sessions.

go figure

i'd far rather carry on learning how to literally kick someone to death than try and understand a sensei that's pre-occupied with everything else that he's got going on.............JMO

donna

Seriously... where do you find TKD at 40 quid a session??

Typical price in the UK = £7 per 90 minutes.

More if the instructor is a Korean high dan grade, but still not close to the rates you quote. I hope you get free brandy and cigars in the restaurant afterwards, because otherwise I can only think of one place that money is going.

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donnaTKD

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yup that's why i've now bailed on TKD (despite my username) --- the first TKD session was free prolly more to get people through the door and it's a case of economics from then on - the sessions are held in a leisure centre gym that's very near my house and that's prolly rented by the hour. most of people that go are teenagers - last session i went to there was only me, sensei and one other person over the age of about 16 there --- i think that the kids parents are getting ripped off but hell they're willing to pay him for "kiddie sitting" them.

my muay thai gym is a specific dojo that's run by the guy that owns the building and has done for many many years albeit tarted up from the run down place it always used to be again the first session is free but that session is limited to certain days every week and every class attendance is near full :) he makes more than enough and loves teaching muay thai and it's got a "family" atmosphere to it and there are limits on age to those going through the doors which means that those that go do so cos they really want to learn. and if i get caught up in my work which sometimes happens then if i've got a session booked that day and need to make it a later time then he'll do his best to fix that for me too :)

i only got told the costs at the end of the free TKD session and to say i was stunned was an understatement - i liked some of the stuff that he was teaching so i forked out for a couple of months but don't see it going anywhere fast plus he only grades every 4 months (16 weeks) so you do the math and to get a belt is horrendous. compare this to my muay thai centre that hold in house competitions every 4 weeks to see how the students skills are and then grades every 8 weeks and again do the math - the muay thai centre is way better value for money.

forget brandy and cigars cos a 1/2litre bottle of water will cost you an additional £1 :(

in my opinion the TKD classes are just a legalised extortion racket as i see it where i live which is why i stayed with the muay thai dojo in warrington about an hour east of my house at the end of the A55 north wales coast road.

donna
 

Gnarlie

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yup that's why i've now bailed on TKD (despite my username) --- the first TKD session was free prolly more to get people through the door and it's a case of economics from then on - the sessions are held in a leisure centre gym that's very near my house and that's prolly rented by the hour. most of people that go are teenagers - last session i went to there was only me, sensei and one other person over the age of about 16 there --- i think that the kids parents are getting ripped off but hell they're willing to pay him for "kiddie sitting" them.

my muay thai gym is a specific dojo that's run by the guy that owns the building and has done for many many years albeit tarted up from the run down place it always used to be again the first session is free but that session is limited to certain days every week and every class attendance is near full :) he makes more than enough and loves teaching muay thai and it's got a "family" atmosphere to it and there are limits on age to those going through the doors which means that those that go do so cos they really want to learn. and if i get caught up in my work which sometimes happens then if i've got a session booked that day and need to make it a later time then he'll do his best to fix that for me too :)

i only got told the costs at the end of the free TKD session and to say i was stunned was an understatement - i liked some of the stuff that he was teaching so i forked out for a couple of months but don't see it going anywhere fast plus he only grades every 4 months (16 weeks) so you do the math and to get a belt is horrendous. compare this to my muay thai centre that hold in house competitions every 4 weeks to see how the students skills are and then grades every 8 weeks and again do the math - the muay thai centre is way better value for money.

forget brandy and cigars cos a 1/2litre bottle of water will cost you an additional £1 :(

in my opinion the TKD classes are just a legalised extortion racket as i see it where i live which is why i stayed with the muay thai dojo in warrington about an hour east of my house at the end of the A55 north wales coast road.

donna

I'm originally from Warrington Donna, and I have NEVER seen prices like that for TKD. I'm in shock. Wow. I guess your MT place is at Bridge Foot?

Gnarlie
 

Tony Dismukes

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yup that's why i've now bailed on TKD (despite my username) --- the first TKD session was free prolly more to get people through the door and it's a case of economics from then on - the sessions are held in a leisure centre gym that's very near my house and that's prolly rented by the hour. most of people that go are teenagers - last session i went to there was only me, sensei and one other person over the age of about 16 there --- i think that the kids parents are getting ripped off but hell they're willing to pay him for "kiddie sitting" them.

my muay thai gym is a specific dojo that's run by the guy that owns the building and has done for many many years albeit tarted up from the run down place it always used to be again the first session is free but that session is limited to certain days every week and every class attendance is near full :) he makes more than enough and loves teaching muay thai and it's got a "family" atmosphere to it and there are limits on age to those going through the doors which means that those that go do so cos they really want to learn. and if i get caught up in my work which sometimes happens then if i've got a session booked that day and need to make it a later time then he'll do his best to fix that for me too :)

i only got told the costs at the end of the free TKD session and to say i was stunned was an understatement - i liked some of the stuff that he was teaching so i forked out for a couple of months but don't see it going anywhere fast plus he only grades every 4 months (16 weeks) so you do the math and to get a belt is horrendous. compare this to my muay thai centre that hold in house competitions every 4 weeks to see how the students skills are and then grades every 8 weeks and again do the math - the muay thai centre is way better value for money.

forget brandy and cigars cos a 1/2litre bottle of water will cost you an additional £1 :(

in my opinion the TKD classes are just a legalised extortion racket as i see it where i live which is why i stayed with the muay thai dojo in warrington about an hour east of my house at the end of the A55 north wales coast road.

donna

To me, the bit about time for belt promotions is the only thing that sounds good about that TKD place. Lots of TKD schools schedule belt promotions every 2-3 months in order to soak the students for belt test fees. Actually, if they only offer 1 class per week, then testing every 4 months sounds a bit hasty. How much progress are most people going to make in 16 lessons anyway?

(Of course I practice an art where belt promotions typically come several years apart, so my views may be biased.)
 

skribs

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i only got told the costs at the end of the free TKD session and to say i was stunned was an understatement - i liked some of the stuff that he was teaching so i forked out for a couple of months but don't see it going anywhere fast plus he only grades every 4 months (16 weeks) so you do the math and to get a belt is horrendous. compare this to my muay thai centre that hold in house competitions every 4 weeks to see how the students skills are and then grades every 8 weeks and again do the math - the muay thai centre is way better value for money.

If you're looking at "money per belt" then yes. However, there's more to taking classes than just earning a belt. I could probably skip a few belts in my TKD class based on the curriculum if I tried (I find memorizing the steps fairly easy), but then my technique and sparring skills would be a lot sloppier for the belt I got than if I'd taken my time.
 
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