YOU ARE AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!! KKW 17th F.I.C.

leadleg

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Report on the USAT/MAC Kukkiwon Instructors Course :

Let me start by saying there was more positive than negative today. We started the day at 7:30am in a small meeting room. We were split between those over 3rd dan and those who were just here for the one day course (kkw 2nd or 1st or no KKW dan). Took 30 min to get set up for Pic outside in parking lot.
The first class was a lecture on the function and role of KKW. Good history/info lesson by head of World TKD Academy (WTA). Best Quote "We can humbly say that we are the best martial art in the world". I think the Gracies might have something to say to that one...
We were then treated to 3 hours of training "Standard techniques" by WTA trainer, GM In Sik Hwang. He is one of the guys in the new Poomsae videos. This was left out of the Chicago course. Went over EVERYTHING. Stances, kicks, strikes, blocks and the meanings behind said techniques(30 min while in chairs and the rest practicing w/many needing correction). It was a sweat fest. I got many compliments:)

After lunch, which was NOT included as we were led to believe (catered by hotel consisting of hot dogs and hamburgers), we spent 5 hours on Poomsae. We got even sweatier still. Great training. The 6th dans went to a local dojang to practice. I was told by my friend that the talked about poomsae for 4 hours and practiced for 25 min..

After Dinner , which was a little better, we went over the NEW testing regulations w/JW Kang (KKW). FYI : THEY ARE GOING TO START MAKING SIPJIN A 5TH DAN REQUIREMENT. Starting in February, as we were told, only those posessing a KKW master liscence will be able to order KKW certs. Those who have not attended the course will be S.O.O.L.. I think gms will be the exception. They are also going to start revoking dan certs and liscences of those who are found to be not following the new standards and those who are cheating the system by ordering certs for those who can not otherwise get them.
Example : A master or GM owns a couple of schools run by 1st, 2nd or 3rd dans and is not present at their testing but still orders the certs. That master or gm can, by the new rules, have his dan cert/liscence revoked. There would be a trickle down effect to all of his students, students students, etc. All eyes were wide open when we heard that.
The same would apply to those who tarnish the name and image of tkd and those not teachin kkw/TKD but issuing dan/poom certs. The speaker insinuated that Felons would be treated the same. About time if you ask me.

After many questions we went on to the History of tkd with GM JP Choi. OMFG! I almost burst out laughing in the beginning. He started with how life begins, LITERALLY! The struggle between several million sperm to reach the egg. Some are fast, some are slow. The fight their way...Whipping oponnents with their tail....maybe a kick here or there....I cant go on. It was too funny.
He did get to the history of tkd eventually. He covered the history in Korea and in the US. Very detailed. Finished about 20 minutes ago.
First day done and I am beat. Til tomorrow night.
YOU ARE AWESOME!!!
I would hope this will lay to rest the idea that you should award KKW certificates to those who do not know the requirements, or to those that do not teach the requirements. Those that do should be extra careful not to put it in writing that they are doing just that, putting themselves in the same boat as felons.
 

Archtkd

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Report on the USAT/MAC Kukkiwon Instructors Course :

Let me start by saying there was more positive than negative today. We started the day at 7:30am in a small meeting room. After lunch, which was NOT included as we were led to believe (catered by hotel consisting of hot dogs and hamburgers), we spent 5 hours on Poomsae. We got even sweatier still. Great training. The 6th dans went to a local dojang to practice. I was told by my friend that the talked about poomsae for 4 hours and practiced for 25 min..

After Dinner , which was a little better, we went over the NEW testing regulations w/JW Kang (KKW). FYI : THEY ARE GOING TO START MAKING SIPJIN A 5TH DAN REQUIREMENT. Starting in February, as we were told, only those posessing a KKW master liscence will be able to order KKW certs. Those who have not attended the course will be S.O.O.L.. I think gms will be the exception. They are also going to start revoking dan certs and liscences of those who are found to be not following the new standards and those who are cheating the system by ordering certs for those who can not otherwise get them.

Wow! sound like you are having a ball. The changes are also fairly radical. It seem like USTC, to its credit, pushed through some serious KKW reforms, which USAT-MAC might now claim to be its initiative.
 

leadleg

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Why would you say the USTC has anything to do with any reforms?
The USTC was very active in trying to keep the KKW out of the hands of the very people who are now in control.
I believe most of what we are hearing as news is also news to the USAT and USTC.
 

leadleg

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Report on the USAT/MAC Kukkiwon Instructors Course :

Let me start by saying there was more positive than negative today. We started the day at 7:30am in a small meeting room. We were split between those over 3rd dan and those who were just here for the one day course (kkw 2nd or 1st or no KKW dan). Took 30 min to get set up for Pic outside in parking lot.
The first class was a lecture on the function and role of KKW. Good history/info lesson by head of World TKD Academy (WTA). Best Quote "We can humbly say that we are the best martial art in the world". I think the Gracies might have something to say to that one...
We were then treated to 3 hours of training "Standard techniques" by WTA trainer, GM In Sik Hwang. He is one of the guys in the new Poomsae videos. This was left out of the Chicago course. Went over EVERYTHING. Stances, kicks, strikes, blocks and the meanings behind said techniques(30 min while in chairs and the rest practicing w/many needing correction). It was a sweat fest. I got many compliments:)

After lunch, which was NOT included as we were led to believe (catered by hotel consisting of hot dogs and hamburgers), we spent 5 hours on Poomsae. We got even sweatier still. Great training. The 6th dans went to a local dojang to practice. I was told by my friend that the talked about poomsae for 4 hours and practiced for 25 min..

After Dinner , which was a little better, we went over the NEW testing regulations w/JW Kang (KKW). FYI : THEY ARE GOING TO START MAKING SIPJIN A 5TH DAN REQUIREMENT. Starting in February, as we were told, only those posessing a KKW master liscence will be able to order KKW certs. Those who have not attended the course will be S.O.O.L.. I think gms will be the exception. They are also going to start revoking dan certs and liscences of those who are found to be not following the new standards and those who are cheating the system by ordering certs for those who can not otherwise get them.
Example : A master or GM owns a couple of schools run by 1st, 2nd or 3rd dans and is not present at their testing but still orders the certs. That master or gm can, by the new rules, have his dan cert/liscence revoked. There would be a trickle down effect to all of his students, students students, etc. All eyes were wide open when we heard that.
The same would apply to those who tarnish the name and image of tkd and those not teachin kkw/TKD but issuing dan/poom certs. The speaker insinuated that Felons would be treated the same. About time if you ask me.

After many questions we went on to the History of tkd with GM JP Choi. OMFG! I almost burst out laughing in the beginning. He started with how life begins, LITERALLY! The struggle between several million sperm to reach the egg. Some are fast, some are slow. The fight their way...Whipping oponnents with their tail....maybe a kick here or there....I cant go on. It was too funny.
He did get to the history of tkd eventually. He covered the history in Korea and in the US. Very detailed. Finished about 20 minutes ago.
First day done and I am beat. Til tomorrow night.
YOU ARE AWESOME!!!
Sipjin has always been a 5th requirement in our school,and my instructors school also.I do understand that in Korea Koryo is not a 1st dan requirement but here in the states competition always required that as 1st dan form.
 

puunui

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I would hope this will lay to rest the idea that you should award KKW certificates to those who do not know the requirements, or to those that do not teach the requirements. Those that do should be extra careful not to put it in writing that they are doing just that, putting themselves in the same boat as felons.


I don't know about the felon part, but in my opinion, it would be foolish for the Kukkiwon to institute this type of thing. It has far reaching implications, which I don't believe you have really thought through. For example, if the rules were enforced ten years ago, I don't believe Steven Lopez or any of the Lopez family would have qualified for the Olympics, because they would not have been able to receive Kukkiwon certification. My understanding is that they came from an ITF background and don't practice or know the Taeguek poomsae. In fact, their Kukkiwon certification may have to be revoked at this point. That goes for a whole lot of people out there who are issuing Kukkiwon certification but are doing poomsae outside of the Taeguek poomsae. Or even if you are doing the Taeguek poomsae, are you doing them according to the Kukkiwon standard.

This doesn't even address the requirement for a Kukkiwon Instructor license in order to recommend candidates for Kukkiwon certification, which the overwhelming majority of teachers in the US do NOT have.

However, if I were thinking about myself only, then I would say I am in good shape because I have satisfied all the requirements myself, and by making it harder for people to obtain or issue Kukkiwon certification, then my own position, which already is limited to very few American borns, has just gotten that much more exclusive.

These new rules screw most people. We'll see how long they are enforced, if they are ever enforced at all.
 

leadleg

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I don't know about the felon part, but in my opinion, it would be foolish for the Kukkiwon to institute this type of thing. It has far reaching implications, which I don't believe you have really thought through. For example, if the rules were enforced ten years ago, I don't believe Steven Lopez or any of the Lopez family would have qualified for the Olympics, because they would not have been able to receive Kukkiwon certification. My understanding is that they came from an ITF background and don't practice or know the Taeguek poomsae. In fact, their Kukkiwon certification may have to be revoked at this point. That goes for a whole lot of people out there who are issuing Kukkiwon certification but are doing poomsae outside of the Taeguek poomsae. Or even if you are doing the Taeguek poomsae, are you doing them according to the Kukkiwon standard.

This doesn't even address the requirement for a Kukkiwon Instructor license in order to recommend candidates for Kukkiwon certification, which the overwhelming majority of teachers in the US do NOT have.

However, if I were thinking about myself only, then I would say I am in good shape because I have satisfied all the requirements myself, and by making it harder for people to obtain or issue Kukkiwon certification, then my own position, which already is limited to very few American borns, has just gotten that much more exclusive.

These new rules screw most people. We'll see how long they are enforced, if they are ever enforced at all.
Yes it is probably not easy to enforce, unless you are putting in writing that you are handing out KKW's just to build membership then it would be hard to refute.
As you know in Korea you must have the instructor liscense to openly teach,I could see the KKW wanting this requirement worldwide.
At least all KKW instructors would have to pass the requirement of proving they have no felony or other record from the police or courts.
If you listen to what President Lee is s aying about sport only tkd then you should want the traditional values of tkd to be taught to the Lopez siblings.Otherwise we end up with more bad attitudes like Cuba has produced.
I do not think by the way that this is any new rule,handing out KKW's without the requirements being met has never been warranted.Yes there have been some exceptions,if it is done by the KKW then they may have their reasons but this is not meant for every 4th dan to do.
As for screwing the ones without certification, the USTC was promoting their seminars with the idea that in the US we would eventually need certification,go get certified if you own a school.
 

Archtkd

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However, if I were thinking about myself only, then I would say I am in good shape because I have satisfied all the requirements myself, and by making it harder for people to obtain or issue Kukkiwon certification, then my own position, which already is limited to very few American borns, has just gotten that much more exclusive.

These new rules screw most people. We'll see how long they are enforced, if they are ever enforced at all.

Weren't some of this changes in the making. Aren't some of them something that the USTC and some other orgs have been campaigning for, when they talk about declining standards of the art, rogue instructors, etc?

I also wonder whether some Korean/Korean American Taekwondo pioneers in USAT-MAC, USTC and other orgs have not pushed for this because they are now excluded from USAT events because of the requirement that only coaches with certain USAT credentials (created by their juniors) can sit at the coaches chair at events of certain levels.

At the KKW 17th IFC in Chicago, GM Hwa Chong, one of the guest lecturers and a pioneer, gave some interesting context to the instructor licencing process. He posed the question: What is economics? His answer was that it's the control of scarce resources, and suggested that is what those attending the Chicago course where partly doing.
 

Archtkd

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Why would you say the USTC has anything to do with any reforms?
The USTC was very active in trying to keep the KKW out of the hands of the very people who are now in control.
I believe most of what we are hearing as news is also news to the USAT and USTC.

From its inception the USTC has been talking about declining standards, and sought the KKW licencing process to be brought in the US in order to address that. If passed, the reforms will favor the GMs at both USTC and USAT-MAC whose relevance, as far as KKW junior dan certification is concerned, has been in the wane for years. I'm neutral on whether the reforms go through or not.
 

Markku P

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This doesn't even address the requirement for a Kukkiwon Instructor license in order to recommend candidates for Kukkiwon certification, which the overwhelming majority of teachers in the US do NOT have.

I think as world wide, most instructors don't have Kukkiwon instructor license, also I think there is some countries that it might be against their law to demand such a license.
 

KarateMomUSA

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I think as world wide, most instructors don't have Kukkiwon instructor license, also I think there is some countries that it might be against their law to demand such a license.
I also would say that most ITF 4th Dans & above do not have the ITF Instructors certificate either, which has always been required to process black belt applications.
While it may certainly be hard to implement & enforce, I think it can have some benefit for standardization.
 

Archtkd

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I think as world wide, most instructors don't have Kukkiwon instructor license, also I think there is some countries that it might be against their law to demand such a license.

I think the Kukkiwon head honchos -- under encouragement from US orgs -- are creating problems with semantics. How about if the organization stuck to what its World Taekwondo Academy has used since 1998: 1st Class, 2nd Class and 3rd Class foreign instructor certification. The Kukkiwon currently requires you be a 4th Dan certified practitioner to recommend students for Dan/Poom Kukkiwon certification. Does that requirement go against the laws of any country that is member of the WTF?

What changes so much, from a WTF member country's legal perspective, when the Kukkiwon says it will now require 4th Dans to undergo extra training in Taekwondo and obtain instructor certificates in order to have authority to recommend their students for Dan and Poom certification?

By the way, individual instructors of 4th- 6th Dan rank in very many countries cannot make direct recommendations for their students to obtain Kukkiwon Dan/Poom certification. That recommendation is done by National Governing Bodies (NGBs), which must be ecognized by the Kukkiwon or WTF. That applies to almost the whole of Africa, South America, Middle East and several parts of Asia.
 
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Archtkd

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By the way, individual instructors of 4th- 6th Dan rank in very many countries cannot make direct recommendations for their students to obtain Kukkiwon Dan/Poom certification. That recommendation is done by National Governing Bodies (NGBs), which must be ecognized by the Kukkiwon or WTF. That applies to almost the whole of Africa, South America, Middle East and several parts of Asia.

This is what Article 5 and Article 6 of current Kukkiwon regulations state:

1. Submission of Dan promotion test applications should be made only via the President of the Member National Association (MNA) of the WTF in nations where the MNA controls at least 70% of Taekwondo bodies and private instructors. It is not allowed to be recommended by the individual instructors in those countries. Individual instructors are not permitted to make personal recommendations.

2. In those countries which do not fall into this category (herein after called "the 1st category"), applications can be submitted by both the Member National Association and independent instructors.

3. The students who practice Taekwondo under the instruction of the instructors recognized by the Kukkiwon in the countries where are no Member National Federations affiliated with the WTF should be recommended by those instructors and submit the application along with the confirmation by the local authorities concerned in that country.

  1. 1. In order to carry out the aforesaid tests, Member National Association will establish the following organizations.
  2. (1).Organization for promotion test 臾댁?⑦??
    t1_composition.gif
    t1_qualifications.gif
    t1_applicant.gif
    Ordinary Test CommissionOver 6th Dan HolderUnder 5th DanHigher Grade Test CommissionOver 7th Dan HolderOver 6th Dan
  3. (2) Any Member National Association which does not have, among its members, official Kukkiwon 6th Dan or higher Dan holders should obtain approval from the Kukkiwon to carry out the testing.
  4. (3) Promotion tests should be composed of three to ten members and they must be arranged so that they may easily
    view the testee's performance.
  1. 2. Article 6-1 will be applied if the Dan Certificates are issued only through each country's Taekwondo governing body.
 
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Markku P

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1. Submission of Dan promotion test applications should be made only via the President of the Member National Association (MNA) of the WTF in nations where the MNA controls at least 70% of Taekwondo bodies and private instructors. It is not allowed to be recommended by the individual instructors in those countries. Individual instructors are not permitted to make personal recommendations.

..in reality, this not happening..man羸 instructors are getting certificates directly from Kukkiwon..
 

Archtkd

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..in reality, this not happening..man羸 instructors are getting certificates directly from Kukkiwon..

In countries that are not classified as 1st Category? If that's the case then the Kukkiwon has not been following its own rules.
 
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msmitht

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From its inception the USTC has been talking about declining standards, and sought the KKW licencing process to be brought in the US in order to address that. If passed, the reforms will favor the GMs at both USTC and USAT-MAC whose relevance, as far as KKW junior dan certification is concerned, has been in the wane for years. I'm neutral on whether the reforms go through or not.
????the USTC talking about declining standards? Didn't they give the test answers, or at least enough to pass, to the students in Chicago right after the test form was handed out? YES, they did.
There will be no jr dan cert. Poom will be the standard for those under 15.
 
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msmitht

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Day 2 :
Started with 4 hours poomsae/basic movement training. VERY GOOD instruction from GM Hwang, In Sik. Lunch was half a sub, chips and water. Again, would rather have gone across street for lunch. Very upset that i had to buy food vauchers for Holiday inn (11.50).
After lunch had business management seminar. Master Kwak was informative but rushed for time. His laptop was a little slow and the presentation was disrupted numerous times. He showed many good ideas that have worked for him.
We then did another 3 hours of poomsae and had dinner. Rice, chicken and a iceberg lettuce/cucumber salad (15.50 vaucher). ugh!
We finished with another rushed lecture by Maste Kwak. He tried to finish up what he started earlier but he was cut off before he could get to TKD counseling, the course we were supposed to be hearing. I guess we are going to skip that part.
We finished a very long day with TKD instruction theory by GM Kim. I apologise that I do not know his first name. He is Jimmy Kims father. Very good. We went over what was in the manual and he gave us some good advice.
Overall a good day...except for the food.
 

KarateMomUSA

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Thnak you kindly for the update. I have had similar disasters with food in the past. That is why I always try to bring a bunch of ceral bars & get some fruit. Hang in there & please continue to keep us posted. It is appreciated!
 

Archtkd

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????the USTC talking about declining standards? Didn't they give the test answers, or at least enough to pass, to the students in Chicago right after the test form was handed out? YES, they did.
There will be no jr dan cert. Poom will be the standard for those under 15.

I'm talking about 1st-Dan-4th Dan not poom. Also, I was talking about USTC in the context of the whole Kukkiwon certification process and the organization's rationale or argument when promoting the same. The feeding of answers in Chicago it appeared was a rash decision made by the Kukkiwon. Of course questions will always be at whose behest.
 

d1jinx

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????the USTC talking about declining standards? Didn't they give the test answers, or at least enough to pass, to the students in Chicago right after the test form was handed out? YES, they did.
There will be no jr dan cert. Poom will be the standard for those under 15.
I'm talking about 1st-Dan-4th Dan not poom. Also, I was talking about USTC in the context of the whole Kukkiwon certification process and the organization's rationale or argument when promoting the same. The feeding of answers in Chicago it appeared was a rash decision made by the Kukkiwon. Of course questions will always be at whose behest.

Well, if those were the SAME questions on the test they gave us last year....they should have given us the answers. Something about the translation JUST DID NOT MAKE SENSE.... I remember trying to look up the answers in the book and thinking, WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY ASKING?????????? Sometimes KRENGLISH is hard
 

IcemanSK

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I read the book they gave us in Chicago. It was unreadable. It made no sense most of the time. Others who went to Korea for the Course said the books they had there were great. I wish I could have gotten a valuable tool that I could reference later in Chicago.
 

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