Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[K-man]

Strikes to the neck are low percenters period. That's the point.

So I'll reference a Krav site and perhaps you could tell me the things you disagree with.
Asia Krav Maga

In particular ...

Back of the neck: A powerful blow can cause whiplash, concussion, or even a broken neck or death.

Back of the ears and base of skull: A moderate blow to the back of the ear or the base of the skull can cause unconsciousness by jarring the effect on the back of the brain. However, a powerful blow can cause a concussion or brain haemorrhage and death.

So if it never reaches the point of little to no resistance you're not using the strike?

What are you on about? I am saying that after you have used certain techniques which leave the neck exposed the strike to the back of the neck is the finishing move. It seems to be an issue to you that TMAs train effective techniques.

The point is that if you've never actually done it, you really don't know what it takes to make it actually work, or what the results can be. I've RNC'd people of various shapes, sizes, and levels of resistance. Some have been completely choked out to the point that they passed out (didn't tap), others tapped quickly, and still others tapped after significant resistance. Again, there's a difference there, and its a big one.

And I said I have also applied RNCs the same way. So what?

That would be your average martial artist.

:BSmeter:

Why am I not surprised?

I don't know. Did you think that these guys don't train with us ordinary folk?

Well actually this particular discussion was about Mook using his neck strike of death in a sparring competition with a grappler. You decided to hop in and discuss how awesome neck strikes really are, and somehow we ended up talking about how all inclusive your training is (again).

What tangled webs we weave....

Yes, I think neck strikes are effective. I haven't posted for some time but your posts are getting so far out of line that people might even start to believe your crap. Nothing to do with my training, but yes, I believe it is inclusive. Not only that, but I would welcome any visitors to check it out, and that is not a challenge.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Strikes to the neck are low percenters period. That's the point.

To you maybe.

That would be your average martial artist.

No that would be your way, way, way below average martial artist.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yet you see head kicks and spinning kick. Which I would have considered more specialised.

I would be willing to bet that those who did those in street fights mostly come from a sporting background.

 

[RTKDCMB]

However, I'm willing to bet that my ability to pull off an effective RNC exceeds your ability to knock someone out with a strike to the neck.

And you would lose.

 

[K-man]

That doesn't pan out so much though. Sports fighters don't train for the street but they seem to make out all right. So their has to be some sort of skill overlap there.

If it is going to work with rules with a ref with padding and with the other guy training hard for the sole purpose of stopping you. It is a pretty safe bet it is going to work without those limitations.

I don't have any issue with that. I have always acknowledged the skill of MMA competitors. Obviously the techniques will be equally effective on the street. All I am trying to say is that the techniques that I teach which are specifically for the street and worse are at least as effective. I cannot believe that anyone can seriously write off every martial art that doesn't have competitors in the ring.
:asian:

 

[Paul_D]

That doesn't pan out so much though. Sports fighters don't train for the street but they seem to make out all right. So their has to be some sort of skill overlap there.

If it is going to work with rules with a ref with padding and with the other guy training hard for the sole purpose of stopping you. It is a pretty safe bet it is going to work without those limitations.

That depends how you define "works". Perform a triangle choke in the ring and the guy taps, perform it in the street and his mates use your head as a football. Triangle choke still "works", and it's a great technique for MMA, but it's almost suicidal for SD. Conversely many techniques which are great for MMA won't "work" in the ring as they are not designed to.

Of course there are cross over skills (a good punch is always a good punch) but many of the techniques and skills you need for success in one are of no use (or can actually be the compete opposite) of what you need for success in the other.

It's not the technique or ther skill that decides if it "works" is the context in which you are using it.

 

[Hanzou]

That depends how you define "works". Perform a triangle choke in the ring and the guy taps, perform it in the street and his mates use your head as a football. Triangle choke still "works", and it's a great technique for MMA, but it's almost suicidal for SD. Conversely many techniques which are great for MMA won't "work" in the ring as they are not designed to.

Of course there are cross over skills (a good punch is always a good punch) but many of the techniques and skills you need for success in one are of no use (or can actually be the compete opposite) of what you need for success in the other.

It's not the technique or ther skill that decides if it "works" is the context in which you are using it.

Two examples of triangle chokes being used in a street fight.

And a female naval officer used the triangle to stop a would be rapist in Dubai;

Female US Navy Sailor Puts Rapist To Sleep With Triangle Choke In Dubai | Bjj Eastern Europe

The choke works regardless, and its an excellent choke that can be applied from the guard position. "His mates will use your head as a football" is a pretty lame excuse.

 

[Hanzou]

And you would lose.

Like I said in an earlier post, I've successfully applied the RNC several times, and I've caused quite a few people to pass out because they didn't tap. BTW, I've also tapped to the RNC and several other chokes in my time in Bjj, so I'm not some super human. That's just the life of a Bjj exponent. Sometimes you get to choke, and oftentimes you're the one getting choked.

Just curious; How many people have you knocked out with a neck strike in practice or in an altercation?

 

[Hanzou]

So I'll reference a Krav site and perhaps you could tell me the things you disagree with.
Asia Krav Maga

What am I supposed to be looking at exactly? I saw the videos, and while the takedown counters did look rather cool, since I've never seen them done at full speed and power I can't gauge their effectiveness.

I do know that there's far simpler ways to counter a rear hold and a DLT, so I'm wondering why the instructor feels the need to do such a fancy move.

I also notice that their e-mail is Hapkido@.... So I guess they used to be a Hapkido school, and now they're a Krav school.

Interesting. Makes you wonder what exactly precipitated that change.

In particular ...

Just because its possible doesn't mean that you'll be able to pull it off. Especially if you've never actually done it before. A punch in the jaw has the possibility to knock someone out cold. Doesn't mean that I'll be able to knock someone out if I punch them in that location, since I've never done it before.

What are you on about? I am saying that after you have used certain techniques which leave the neck exposed the strike to the back of the neck is the finishing move. It seems to be an issue to you that TMAs train effective techniques.

I'm just making sure I understand what you're saying. I don't want to take you the wrong way and get you upset. That's never a good thing.

And I said I have also applied RNCs the same way. So what?

How exactly are you applying them? Are you actually sparring at full contact and speed and applying them as part of your "game", or are you doing one-step drills where you take turns applying it before moving on to the next technique? Didn't you once tell me that you guys don't spar?

Yes, I think neck strikes are effective. I haven't posted for some time but your posts are getting so far out of line that people might even start to believe your crap. Nothing to do with my training, but yes, I believe it is inclusive. Not only that, but I would welcome any visitors to check it out, and that is not a challenge.

Which one? The Krav Maga school, or the Okinawan Karate school? Or do you do both of these arts out of one location?

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

I cannot believe that anyone can seriously write off every martial art that doesn't have competitors in the ring.
:asian:

Why can you still not believe that? They've been doing it consistently for 40+ pages now.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Just curious; How many people have you knocked out with a neck strike in practice or in an altercation?

As a general rule I don't go around knocking people out with neck strikes in training, I like students to keep coming back. I don't need to actually knock lots of people out with a neck strike to know if it can be done, anybody who has held a pad for me for a knife hand strike would not doubt its effectiveness and power. I have however knocked someone out with a spinning heel kick at their black belt grading and I barely touched him with it, I had to pull it a little when I saw it was going to hit him.

 

[Hanzou]

As a general rule I don't go around knocking people out with neck strikes in training, I like students to keep coming back. I don't need to actually knock lots of people out with a neck strike to know if it can be done, anybody who has held a pad for me for a knife hand strike would not doubt its effectiveness and power. I have however knocked someone out with a spinning heel kick at their black belt grading and I barely touched him with it, I had to pull it a little when I saw it was going to hit him.

Well that's my point. I've choked out people with the RNC, and I've used the RNC to choke people to the point of giving up (tapping out), all within full resistance and with people of different sizes, body types, and weights.

You, on the other hand, have NEVER knocked out anyone with a neck strike. And even in training you're doing it against someone standing there holding a pad to their neck. Not moving, not blocking, not giving you any resistance of any kind.

You really can't see the difference?

 

[mook jong man]

Well that's my point. I've choked out people with the RNC, and I've used the RNC to choke people to the point of giving up (tapping out), all within full resistance and with people of different sizes, body types, and weights.

You, on the other hand, have NEVER knocked out anyone with a neck strike. And even in training you're doing it against someone standing there holding a pad to their neck. Not moving, not blocking, not giving you any resistance of any kind.

You really can't see the difference?

Let's have closer look at this full resistance thing you keep talking about shall we.
Is it really full resistance , you are not training against people trying to trap your hands and punch you , you are not training against people trying to kick you , you are not training against people trying to knee strike you or elbow strike you.

You are basically training against people trying to grapple with you , basically people playing the same game as you are.

 

[Hanzou]

Let's have closer look at this full resistance thing you keep talking about shall we.
Is it really full resistance , you are not training against people trying to trap your hands and punch you , you are not training against people trying to kick you , you are not training against people trying to knee strike you or elbow strike you.

You learn pretty quickly in Bjj that attempting to punch and kick in an inferior position is a quick way to get yourself in an even worse situation. However, we do get street people who come in and attempt that stuff, and they don't last very long.

The point is; if I'm grappling with another grappler who is highly trained, and I can get their back and pull off an RNC to the point that they're tapping or going to never-never land, all while they're squirming, flailing, and attempting to get out of the choke with all their might, I've performed that choke sucessfully under full resistance. That becomes even easier against someone who isn't trained, because they don't know the defenses in order to stop me from getting to their back or applying the choke.

You are basically training against people trying to grapple with you , basically people playing the same game as you are.

When two people grapple or hit the ground, both are scrambling for superior positioning. That situation doesn't leave a lot of room for kicking and punching. It even happens when two Wing Chun masters fight;

Looks like a lot of people play our "game".

 

[RTKDCMB]

You, on the other hand, have NEVER knocked out anyone with a neck strike. And even in training you're doing it against someone standing there holding a pad to their neck. Not moving, not blocking, not giving you any resistance of any kind.

You really can't see the difference?

I have never knocked anyone out with a neck strike while they were holding a pad no, I would be doing a very lousy job at doing pad work if I did.

Sometimes the pads are moving and no one in any of our classes would be stupid enough to hold a pad to their neck during striking practice, that would be an accident waiting to happen. When you are doing pad work the pad holder would not be blocking as that would defeat the purpose of doing pad work, they are however moving, blocking, striking back and resisting in sparring.

 

[drop bear]

Why can you still not believe that? They've been doing it consistently for 40+ pages now.

Well if there is some evidence of successful self defence that would work as well. Some sort of real sample that maybe we could look at what consistently works.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have no doubt a RNC will work. Why because I have choked people out and like Hanzou said above I have been choked out once as well.

I do however have the distinction in that I have knocked a lot of people out when competing way back in the day with temple shots, jaw line strikes and I have also hit a few people with neck shots on the brachial also resulting in the person falling down and effectively being unable to move. (though thankfully I have never hit anyone in the adams apple) Pressure testing is important. Yet, I do not need to hit someone in the eye in training to know what the result will be. I have also seen enough eye strikes in competition (particularly mma) to know the result. (fetal position typically) I did once about thirty years ago during a tournament in Traverse City get fingered in the eye by someone's thumb from a ridge hand. Let me tell you that was one of the most painful injuries I have ever gone through. Immediate stoppage during competition. Trip to the hospital after the tournament. Two weeks with an eye patch all from a minor corneal scratch. Lots of pain pills and that was brutal.

 

[Buka]

I'm a big proponent for punching to the neck (or elbowing), right at the carotid sinus or brachial nerve. I have had great success with it for many years. Both in training, competition and real world encounters. My strikes tend to drift higher, rather than lower (if they drift) and that usually gives me the jaw when I hit higher than I aimed. I've knocked out more folks, or put them on queer street, with a neck shot than with a jaw shot. But there's many of both.

We actively train this. I have my guys familiarize themselves with this by self examination in their mirror at home - every time they shave or clean up. Two fingers held together - poke yourself in the carotid. It will take a few pokes, but you'll find it. After repeated practice with this you'll find it first time, every time. Then you start looking at the carotid when you speak with someone. Not the whole time, obviously, but you do it every time you face someone - or observe them from the side. It becomes a fighter's habit, a subconscious thing that nobody notices. Pays off, too, or at least that's been our experience.

I know all of that may sound odd, but it works quite well. I also trained my officers like that in DT because brachial stuns/strikes were big back in the day. Not sure if they still are.

However, I have never done a neck strike to a downed person, or attempted it as part of ground and pound, so I have absolutely no idea if it's viable in those case or even advisable. But it sure works sweet in stand up.

I don't want to give the wrong impression here, we don't spar each other trying to knock each other out. Not at all. But some of the guys who are well seasoned tend to go a little harder with each other, especially in ring training at times. (Ammonia capsules always at the ready)

As for the RNC. It just don't get any better than that, it just don't. I don't care how strong, how crazy or what kind of drugs they have raging through their system, when it's nap time.....everybody goes to sleep. Right quick, too.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is the one of CMA ways to apply RNC. It's called "beggar carry dog". It was used as an assassin technique in the ancient time to attack someone from behind. It can be executed quietly without making any sound.

- You use a rope (or neck choke) on your opponent's neck,
- put his weight on your back,
- drag him backward,
- until he is ...

As far as I know, there is no counters for it.

 

[K-man]

What am I supposed to be looking at exactly? I saw the videos, and while the takedown counters did look rather cool, since I've never seen them done at full speed and power I can't gauge their effectiveness.

I do know that there's far simpler ways to counter a rear hold and a DLT, so I'm wondering why the instructor feels the need to do such a fancy move.

I actually copied and pasted two vital targets for you to comment on. I was referring to the other targets which were on the page I linked to see if you disagreed. I couldn't watch the videos on an ipad so can't comment.

I also notice that their e-mail is Hapkido@.... So I guess they used to be a Hapkido school, and now they're a Krav school.

Interesting. Makes you wonder what exactly precipitated that change.

Or maybe as they say on the site they are just sharing the location. It's not always a conspiracy.

And the instructor sounds legit to me ...

Chief Instructor Master Lim Beng Kit is a Certified Israeli Defense Force (IDF) Krav Maga Instructor. Master Lim has been involved in martial arts and fighting systems for the past 20 years. He received his Krav Maga Instructor Diploma from Krav Maga Top Expert, Boaz Aviram, and actively promotes Authentic IDF Krav Maga in Asia.
He was awarded “Krav Maga Instructor of the year 2009” by Martial Arts Health and fitness Association of Emden, Germany. Master Lim is a qualified First Aider and is certified in Sports Coaching. He received his Cert III in Sports Coaching from the International College of Kenshusei, Australia.

Just because its possible doesn't mean that you'll be able to pull it off. Especially if you've never actually done it before. A punch in the jaw has the possibility to knock someone out cold. Doesn't mean that I'll be able to knock someone out if I punch them in that location, since I've never done it before.

Oh please! So at least you are now acknowledging that the techniques are legitimate. So I suppose we are now back to ensuring effective training to make them work. Cool ... that's a start.

I'm just making sure I understand what you're saying. I don't want to take you the wrong way and get you upset. That's never a good thing.

True. I can get quite argumentative when people feed me BS. Just stop rubbishing every other style and every other martial artist and we might even get to be friends.

How exactly are you applying them? Are you actually sparring at full contact and speed and applying them as part of your "game", or are you doing one-step drills where you take turns applying it before moving on to the next technique? Didn't you once tell me that you guys don't spar?

Hmm! You really don't read things do you? I said we don't spar in the conventional sense, ie like tournament sparring. I told you we trained against full resistance but you didn't accept that as valid. So no, we don't have any one step drills as such.

As to RNC. I teach how to apply it first, but in training you have to be able to achieve the position to apply it. I would think it was a bit like your training really in that respect but obviously not as effective as yours because we don't want to fight in the ring.

Which one? The Krav Maga school, or the Okinawan Karate school? Or do you do both of these arts out of one location?

We do both different nights or you might like to check out how effective Aikido can be. We teach all three in the one location. Anyone is welcome to attend classes. I would certainly join the Aikido class if you were going to be there.