Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Could you put capoeira in that list? If the final test is in an octagon as a form of validation, would you say it's suited even in the limitations of the octagon?

I know nothing about capoeira. Are there any capoeira tournament? Which category should it consist?

 

[jezr74]

KFW, when you send your guys into MMA fights for testing, what do they come back to you with? Do they find it more difficult?

 

[jezr74]

I know nothing about capoeira. Are there any capoeira tournament? Which category should it consist?

Well that's kinda my point, from what I understand of Capoeira, it needs space and area to flow (jenga?). The confides of a cage is not a good place for it to be tested if that's how the form works. Does that mean they have more difficulty in a cage, or that MMA fighters have difficulty using Capoeira in their rule set?

 

[drop bear]

Well that's kinda my point, from what I understand of Capoeira, it needs space and area to flow (jenga?). The confides of a cage is not a good place for it to be tested if that's how the form works. Does that mean they have more difficulty in a cage, or that MMA fighters have difficulty using Capoeira in their rule set?

It is really taxing to do and leaves a lot of openings that a fighter can take advantage of. The movements are too big.

There should be no issue with the cage. Generally a roda is pretty small.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qgHTJ760GBQ&has_verified=1&layout=tablet&client=mv-google

 

[jezr74]

It is really taxing to do and leaves a lot of openings that a fighter can take advantage of. The movements are too big.

There should be no issue with the cage. Generally a roda is pretty small.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qgHTJ760GBQ&has_verified=1&layout=tablet&client=mv-google

Quite a good clip, interesting to see the different skill levels, about halfway through, the level steps right up with one of the guys looking like a standout.

Personally, I'd still would not want a cage around me as the usable space would be limited, I'd rather spin into a couple of fleshy guys than get my toes caught on steel mesh and split.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

KFW, when you send your guys into MMA fights for testing, what do they come back to you with? Do they find it more difficult?

Something work well, such as

- head lock against double neck ties.
- elbow cracking against under hook.
- big fist against head punch.
- ...

Something need to be modified, such as

- don't give your back to your opponent unless you have a good control on his arm.
- change all body spin into a 90 degree sharp turn.
- crash your opponent's structure first before taking him down.
- ...

 

[jezr74]

Something work well, such as

- head lock against double neck ties.
- elbow cracking against under hook.
- big fist against head punch.
- ...

Something need to be modified, such as

- don't give your back to your opponent unless you have a good control on his arm.
- change all body spin into a 90 degree sharp turn.
- crash your opponent's structure first before taking him down.
- ...

Do you look at new techniques\principles and incorporate into your teaching where you think it will give value?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you look at new techniques\principles and incorporate into your teaching where you think it will give value?

The art of Chinese wrestling is so old. It's very difficult to find or invent anything new. Because different sport rule set, one may have to pay attention on certain moves more than others.

 

[drop bear]

Quite a good clip, interesting to see the different skill levels, about halfway through, the level steps right up with one of the guys looking like a standout.

Personally, I'd still would not want a cage around me as the usable space would be limited, I'd rather spin into a couple of fleshy guys than get my toes caught on steel mesh and split.

Spinning kicks and in general flash moves are defiantly on the increase in the cage though. There are elements of capoeira that do present in the cage either coincidentally or intentionally.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ncPS_pmFAWM

 

[RTKDCMB]

Actually it's quite different. The RNC is a much higher percentage move than a strike to the neck.

But a lot slower and leaves you in a more vulnerable position even when you apply it on someone (multiple attackers, weapons and all) and more likely to go wrong when you fail to slap it on properly, only able to do one at a time. How many knockout neck strikes can be done in the time it takes to do one RNC to unconsciousness?

To an MMA fighter the RNC may be a high percentage move but how long does it take on average in an MMA fight to successfully apply one?

 

[RTKDCMB]

You also don't see neck strikes in street altercations either.

There's a good reason for that; the neck isn't an easy target to hit when you're dealing with a moving, attacking opponent.

Yes there is a good reason, but not the one you think it is. It is because most street altercations are between relatively untrained combatants.

Generally people have to have stopped moving before the RNC is applied to them.

 

[drop bear]

Yes there is a good reason, but not the one you think it is. It is because most street altercations are between relatively untrained combatants

Generally people have to have stopped moving before the RNC is applied to them.

Yet you see head kicks and spinning kick. Which I would have considered more specialised.

 

[Hanzou]

But a lot slower and leaves you in a more vulnerable position even when you apply it on someone (multiple attackers, weapons and all) and more likely to go wrong when you fail to slap it on properly, only able to do one at a time. How many knockout neck strikes can be done in the time it takes to do one RNC to unconsciousness?

If I'm in position to do a RNC, most of those considerations have already been dealt with. The RNC is a finishing move, not an opening attack, unless you're coming up behind someone and trying to choke them from behind.

As for failing to slap it on properly, that's what training is for, and part of the genius of randori in Judo and Bjj. I get to apply RNCs at full power, and I only need to restrain myself if my partner is in danger of passing out. Thus, I get to gauge the effectiveness of my ability to pull off an RNC on a variety of people of different shapes and sizes who are fully resisting my efforts to put them into the choke.

Can I always get the RNC on? No. However, I'm willing to bet that my ability to pull off an effective RNC exceeds your ability to knock someone out with a strike to the neck. Why? Because I've actually done it several times on fully resisting opponents, and I had to work to get them into that position, and to get them to tap out.

To an MMA fighter the RNC may be a high percentage move but how long does it take on average in an MMA fight to successfully apply one?

It isn't just a high percentage move for MMA fighters. It's a high percentage move in grappling period. Most people know that if someone gets a RNC on you, you're pretty much done for unless you can fight your way out of it. The RNC is the main reason no one wants to give up their back when they're rolling, because its perfect to set up the RNC. Hence why its not really fair to use MMA fighters as an example for how long it takes to apply the choke, because any MMA fighter worth their salt has training to defend against it.

Your average martial artist or person on the street doesn't.

 

[Buka]

Im fine with admitting things may be a bit different in Europe, but considering that you also have MAs reacting to MMA there as well, I can't be totally off base. When I say reacting to MMA, I'm talking about styles that had no ground fighting to speak of 20 years ago now suddenly having ground fighting (oftentimes with laughable results) or some form of anti-grappling. Basically anything that will ease their student's fear of the crazed MMA guy rolling them on the concrete and choking them out.

I don't mean to be taking what you said in your whole post out of context, but I wanted to address the above quoted part.

I agree. But I look at it with a more "glass half full" approach. A lot of guys here study stand up arts that have some ground fighting component to them. They are very fortunate, I was not so lucky. Neither were 90% of the other guys/schools/competitors that I always interacted and fought with 25 years ago. A whole lot of stand up schools here in New England didn't have squat when it came to ground fighting. (may seem like a long time to some, it's the blink of an eye to us old guys) But most of them have some ground basics now. And it's only going to get better. Yes, a few I've seen are close to laughable, but they'll eventually get there, or probably end up closing down.

I think some of them added ground as a marketing ploy, I think others might have done it to appease a younger student base who sees it on TV, but I think a lot of them are doing it because they finally woke up. And some, with good instruction, realized that they could actually learn the basics of this and become better Martial Artists themselves, and become far better, well rounded instructors.

I credit the explosive interest in BJJ for this, and the UFC, and the Gracies in particular. Because of those influences, they have made a lot of stand-up schools better places to train, and made students and teachers better suited to deal with real world self defense. And twenty years from now it's going to be a whole lot better than it is now. Especially when the young students nowadays, get older and start teaching. I find this a beautiful thing.
'

 

[K-man]

Many Vale Tudo fighters and early UFC fighters were not MMA. I might have even seen a few neck strikes in early NHB bouts. Doesn't amount to a hill of beans really.

Looked more like a forearm shot to the jaw, but okay.

Ive seen people get knocked out by a slap in the face. Doesn't change the fact that I wouldnt center my fighting ability on a face slap. I would center it around much higher percentage abilities.

Actually it's quite different. The RNC is a much higher percentage move than a strike to the neck.

So a forearm strike to the side or back of the neck is the same as a slap to the face? I would suggest to you that the reason they are banned from MMA is because they are too dangerous to allow in sport.

Generally people have to have stopped moving before the RNC is applied to them.

And in the situation where the strike to the back of the neck is the finishing move the person is not moving either.

If I'm in position to do a RNC, most of those considerations have already been dealt with. The RNC is a finishing move, not an opening attack, unless you're coming up behind someone and trying to choke them from behind.

A strike to the neck can be an opening move, an intermediate move or a finishing move. For an opening move there obviously must be an opportunity to use it just as you need opportunity to apply a RNC.

As for failing to slap it on properly, that's what training is for, and part of the genius of randori in Judo and Bjj. I get to apply RNCs at full power, and I only need to restrain myself if my partner is in danger of passing out. Thus, I get to gauge the effectiveness of my ability to pull off an RNC on a variety of people of different shapes and sizes who are fully resisting my efforts to put them into the choke.

So what is our training for? I get to train my strikes at full power too. Just not delivered to the neck.

Can I always get the RNC on? No. However, I'm willing to bet that my ability to pull off an effective RNC exceeds your ability to knock someone out with a strike to the neck. Why? Because I've actually done it several times on fully resisting opponents, and I had to work to get them into that position, and to get them to tap out.

What crap! RNC is part and parcel of most martial arts and is very effective if using it is appropriate. Even with experience it takes several seconds to get into position and three or four seconds to apply. I can knock you out with a blow to the back of the neck in a fraction of a second and I'm willing to bet that if I use full force you will likely never walk again. And before you ask, no I haven't done it just as I have never shot anyone in the head. I don't have to do either to know how effective they are.

It isn't just a high percentage move for MMA fighters. It's a high percentage move in grappling period. Most people know that if someone gets a RNC on you, you're pretty much done for unless you can fight your way out of it. The RNC is the main reason no one wants to give up their back when they're rolling, because its perfect to set up the RNC. Hence why its not really fair to use MMA fighters as an example for how long it takes to apply the choke, because any MMA fighter worth their salt has training to defend against it.

Your average martial artist or person on the street doesn't.

You Have a very inflated image of your ability and an incredible disregard for the ability of all of the rest of us. We train RNC too. It is a high percentage move when you are in a position to utilise it. For me it is more useful if I need a shield. RNC is not a destination for me. It is an opportunity, like all my techniques. As to your average martial artist not training against RNC? More crap. We train against chokes constantly.

As to not wanting to give up you back. How is that different for non MMA fighters? We don't want to give up our backs either. Not only that but our training is the same trying to get to the rear when that is an option.

Get a life! There's more out there than MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

So a forearm strike to the side or back of the neck is the same as a slap to the face? I would suggest to you that the reason they are banned from MMA is because they are too dangerous to allow in sport.

Well actually I just found out that strikes to the side of the neck are legal in MMA.

So there you go.

So what is our training for? I get to train my strikes at full power too. Just not delivered to the neck.

Which isn't the same as actually striking the neck over and over again in a training environment against a resisting opponent.

What crap! RNC is part and parcel of most martial arts and is very effective if using it is appropriate. Even with experience it takes several seconds to get into position and three or four seconds to apply. I can knock you out with a blow to the back of the neck in a fraction of a second and I'm willing to bet that if I use full force you will likely never walk again. And before you ask, no I haven't done it just as I have never shot anyone in the head. I don't have to do either to know how effective they are.

Well I have choked people out with the RNC, and I've choked many more people to the point where they feel helpless and tap out. So there's a difference there.

You Have a very inflated image of your ability and an incredible disregard for the ability of all of the rest of us. We train RNC too. It is a high percentage move when you are in a position to utilise it. For me it is more useful if I need a shield. RNC is not a destination for me. It is an opportunity, like all my techniques. As to your average martial artist not training against RNC? More crap. We train against chokes constantly.

Well then you guys wouldn't be your average martial artists now would you?

As to not wanting to give up you back. How is that different for non MMA fighters? We don't want to give up our backs either. Not only that but our training is the same trying to get to the rear when that is an option.

You guys are training with professional grapplers and/or Bjj black belts to learn how to avoid getting your back taken/and or taking the back? I'm impressed.

Get a life! There's more out there than MMA.

Of course. However, that's the topic of this discussion.

 

[K-man]

Well actually I just found out that strikes to the side of the neck are legal in MMA.

So there you go.

Strikes to the side of the neck are low percenters unless you get lucky. Strikes to the front can easily collapse the trachea and the main one for us, the back of the neck is not allowed. However technically nothing is 'banned' in MMA. Illegal strikes are considered foul so that opens up the opportunity to cheat as there is no automatic disqualification even if you hurt your opponent with an illegal strike. However, I would suggest legal action would certainly follow injury caused by an illegal strike.
Three Reasons Why You Should Always Cheat in an MMA Fight | Cagepotato

Which isn't the same as actually striking the neck over and over again in a training environment against a resisting opponent.

By the time I'm striking the neck there is little resistance.

Well I have choked people out with the RNC, and I've choked many more people to the point where they feel helpless and tap out. So there's a difference there.

And so have I. But, I have never hit anyone full force on the back of the neck. Who's further up the wall?

Well then you guys wouldn't be your average martial artists now would you?

Perhaps not, but I don't go round trying to compare. What is 'your average martial artist'? I would claim that all our training is reality based and good solid training. I would suggest there are plenty of others here who might claim the same.

You guys are training with professional grapplers and/or Bjj black belts to learn how to avoid getting your back taken/and or taking the back? I'm impressed.

No, not professional grapplers but BJJ black belts, certainly. One of my main training partners is a BJJ black belt.

Of course. However, that's the topic of this discussion.

You could have fooled me. Even this discussion has been hijacked back to how good MMA is. The topic was "why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon" and the answer is "they don't care as they are not training for the ring/octagon".

 

[drop bear]

Strikes to the side of the neck are low percenters unless you get lucky. Strikes to the front can easily collapse the trachea and the main one for us, the back of the neck is not allowed. However technically nothing is 'banned' in MMA. Illegal strikes are considered foul so that opens up the opportunity to cheat as there is no automatic disqualification even if you hurt your opponent with an illegal strike. However, I would suggest legal action would certainly follow injury caused by an illegal strike.
Three Reasons Why You Should Always Cheat in an MMA Fight | Cagepotato



By the time I'm striking the neck there is little resistance.




And so have I. But, I have never hit anyone full force on the back of the neck. Who's further up the wall?

Perhaps not, but I don't go round trying to compare. What is 'your average martial artist'? I would claim that all our training is reality based and good solid training. I would suggest there are plenty of others here who might claim the same.

No, not professional grapplers but BJJ black belts, certainly. One of my main training partners is a BJJ black belt.


You could have fooled me. Even this discussion has been hijacked back to how good MMA is. The topic was "why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon" and the answer is "they don't care as they are not training for the ring/octagon".

That doesn't pan out so much though. Sports fighters don't train for the street but they seem to make out all right. So their has to be some sort of skill overlap there.

If it is going to work with rules with a ref with padding and with the other guy training hard for the sole purpose of stopping you. It is a pretty safe bet it is going to work without those limitations.

 

[Hanzou]

Strikes to the side of the neck are low percenters unless you get lucky. Strikes to the front can easily collapse the trachea and the main one for us, the back of the neck is not allowed. However technically nothing is 'banned' in MMA. Illegal strikes are considered foul so that opens up the opportunity to cheat as there is no automatic disqualification even if you hurt your opponent with an illegal strike. However, I would suggest legal action would certainly follow injury caused by an illegal strike.
Three Reasons Why You Should Always Cheat in an MMA Fight | Cagepotato

Strikes to the neck are low percenters period. That's the point.

By the time I'm striking the neck there is little resistance.

So if it never reaches the point of little to no resistance you're not using the strike?

And so have I. But, I have never hit anyone full force on the back of the neck. Who's further up the wall?

The point is that if you've never actually done it, you really don't know what it takes to make it actually work, or what the results can be. I've RNC'd people of various shapes, sizes, and levels of resistance. Some have been completely choked out to the point that they passed out (didn't tap), others tapped quickly, and still others tapped after significant resistance. Again, there's a difference there, and its a big one.

Perhaps not, but I don't go round trying to compare. What is 'your average martial artist'? I would claim that all our training is reality based and good solid training. I would suggest there are plenty of others here who might claim the same.

That would be your average martial artist.

No, not professional grapplers but BJJ black belts, certainly. One of my main training partners is a BJJ black belt.

Why am I not surprised?

You could have fooled me. Even this discussion has been hijacked back to how good MMA is. The topic was "why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon" and the answer is "they don't care as they are not training for the ring/octagon".

Well actually this particular discussion was about Mook using his neck strike of death in a sparring competition with a grappler. You decided to hop in and discuss how awesome neck strikes really are, and somehow we ended up talking about how all inclusive your training is (again).

What tangled webs we weave....

 

[drop bear]

I have been hit full force in the back of the neck and it can give you flashes so possibly knock you out if lucky. The issue is getting that shot. You sort of have to be scrambling around on the ground in front of them. And well you can get nailed with a lot of stuff there.

As far as the side goes it is usually pretty well protected. I would probably judo chop the temple or behind the ear. Both are harder to cover.

Temple would be the money shot to be honest.