One more.....

F

fist of fury

Guest
This is written specifically about Xing Yi but could apply to most M.A's
An article from http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/

Xing Yi & Grappling

It's unnecessary to say that the martial arts where considered to be among all the four olds. To practice any martial art was then forbidden for 10 years and several teachers and Masters were sent to work stations to be "purified through hard work." Many others were sent to jail and suffered with things that we don't need to talk about here. It was a dark period of time in history where students would turn Masters down. In 1972, almost at the end of the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese government decided that it was time to bring China again to international relations and open the country's door. Part of this plan was to (re)introduce to the rest of the world the Chinese culture, or better saying, what the government decided it was interesting to present as "real Chinese culture". Almost every aspect of the old Chinese culture were reformulated, and the martial arts were also reformulated.

Because of the Revolution, many styles completely disappeared, many were kept in secrecy and many others couldn't be found in China anymore, only abroad. A lot of styles were still out there, but to bring them back on scene would require a great effort by the government. It was decided then that many officials were to travel the whole China searching for whatever trace they could find about these old styles of Gong Fu. The process, as expected, took many years, and the government, during the time, compiled information about several styles of fighting. It was a survey. It was created then a kind of synthetic Gong Fu, a hybrid martial art, that didn't have in fact it's own characteristic. In 1973 the communist party publish the "New rules for Wu Shu competitions." At this point any Gong Fu techniques that had offensive or defensive movement were gradually replaced by more gymnastic maneuvers. The tendency to have more dance-type actions in Gong Fu appeared. This caused an argument over what the acrobatics movements really meant; that is to say Wu Shu should be Wu ( martial art) and not Wu ( dance ) " Kang Gewu - 5000 years of Chinese martial arts. With the new "opening" plan in action, teams and teams of Wu Shu practitioners ( I see them more as dancers ) were sent abroad to show the world the new Chinese culture. To Western eyes, Chinese that could perform incredible jumps and astonishing kicks would definitely be very proficient fighters. They were so wrong... any Ballet guy could make the same movements with some training and good instruction. The new Wu Shu then invaded West in a time where very few people were teaching Asian martial arts. It was a lie. And they bought it. So this dance, created by the government, without any martial application, this came to be known as Gong Fu. What people believed to be Gong Fu was nothing more than a lie.

The Dragon sleeps.but the tiger is awake

While the west (especially the U.S.) was learning how to " dance " Wu Shu, the BJJ was growing very fast in Brazil. Since the 20's (1920), the Gracie family (mainly through Helio Gracie) began to modify the old Japanese JJ into a highly efficient martial art. At that time, in Brazil, people had a wrong idea about what a true martial art should be. There, most part of the people also believed in the so called "Gong Fu or Karate" "Masters" and their fantastic techniques. Helio Gracie, Carlson Gracie, their brothers and cousins begun to show the world, that people needed more reality in what they practiced. They begun to show the world that you can't be a fighter and a dancer.

The style they developed began to spread very fast. "Many times I couldn't make the movements my brother was teaching, because to make this movements you needed to use a lot of power, and I was a weak boy. So I began to adapt this old JJ to myself. Once someone asked me if I created a new fighting style; I just inserted a kind of a crowbar in each movement. I had to use a crowbar to be able to do what I do without using strength. And then, I reinvented the JJ" - Helio Gracie. It's important to understand then, that while the Chinese were worried about showing the world a "new" kind of Gong Fu, something beautiful and nice to see, the Gracie family was worried about developing a fighting system that could be used by any person, know matter how strong the opponent. While the Chinese were "dancing around the world," the BJJ was being tested over and over, like Helio Gracie said: "The goal of my life was to teach JJ. We needed someone to be the protector of the new BJJ, and I was this person, as a fighter. So every time someone would have doubts about my techniques, I would step in to the ring and destroy the guy, to prove the efficiency of our fight." The Gracies were fighting everyone back then: kickboxers, Gong Fu fighters, karate, Judo, wrestlers ... everyone was going down. Soon, they were in the U.S., and America found out about the Gracie JJ. And most of the guys that didn't believe in it, also went down. Rickson and Rorion Gracie fought almost everyone. They never chose the opponents. Like their father, Helio Gracie, they have the mind set of the warrior, while the people who were learning Gong Fu had the mind set of the dancers.

The Myths

Because of the almost total efficiency of BJJ and because everybody was going down, some myths were created back in the 80's and early 90's:
1 - All the fights begin standing and end up on the ground - there is nothing you can do about it.

2 - If a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground, then it's all over.

3 - If a BJJ fighters achieves the "mounted" position, it's all over.

4 - You have to learn how to fight on the ground

5 - Mixed martial arts are the best
These statements are, in fact, ridiculous. But I understand why most part of people believe them. Having in mind the Wu Shu dance, you really begin to think that you have to learn ground fighting and really begin to believe in these "myths." But they are not true at all. Let's analyze them.

1 - All the fights begin standing and end on the ground - Why is that? Why do fights end up on the ground? What happens is that people, first of all, are not learning real Gong Fu, so they don't have the necessary technique to avoid being taken to the ground. In how many ways you can take a person to the ground? Mainly 3 or 4, and the other techniques are only variations. Learn how to counter these movements, like the famous "double leg" or the Brazilian JJ "baiana." They are not difficult to defend. The Gong Fu style you practice should give you tools so you can deal with this techniques. What is lacking to the Gong Fu people out there ( in terms of Xing Yi ):
a - The mind set. The beast inside.

b - Strong Stances - San Ti Shi training is vital here - spend a lot of time on it.
c - Chen Jin

d - How to Fa Jin, and how to release power using short movements.
e - How to use elbows, knees, hips, and shoulders. The 2 man form Pi Wuxing and the bear form are to be trained very well.
f - Reality training. Full power sparring with no protection.
g - A good teacher.
In case you don't lack the above mentioned things and BJJ fighters still take you to the ground, well, then, train more.

2 & 3 - If a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground or achieve the mounted position, it's all over - So again here, we have a common problem. People don't know real Xing Yi Quan. They think they know or, worse, they are conscious they don't know but they want to fool other people. And again, what people (most people) know as Xing Yi is a lie. That's why myths like this spread so fast, because almost no one out there can prove they are only myths. If these people really know Xing Yi, they would understand that XY is not based on techniques, but rather in principles. It is in fact very simple to understand. Teachers train their student in the use of techniques that work for certain situations. At the moment their the opponent makes a different movement, they can't react , because they were not taught how to counter these movements; they didn't learn the proper techniques to apply. So at this point you can already understand that to know techniques is but a single step. More important than this, is to know the mechanics that work behind the techniques. You have to know the concepts. Concepts work in any situation; they work standing or on the ground. A very good example is about how to defend a punch. You have to look deep in to the movement (the punch) and understand that before being a punch, it's a straight force. So if you learn how to defend straight force attacks, and not only a punch, you can defend (using the same movement) a punch, a frontal kick, a side kick, a wrestlers double leg or a BJJ "baiana," for all these movements are in fact straight forces in motion. All good Xing Yi fighters know this. Well, at least they should. And more than anything principles are always principles, standing or on the ground.

4 - You have to learn how to fight on the ground - Wrong. Totally wrong. This is exactly the mistake BJJ guys never made. High levels of skill in any martial come only through specialization in a certain art. How do you expect to be proficient in Xing Yi also learning JJ, or wrestling? Why is so easy to take the Gong Fu guys to the ground? Because they are not specialists. At the other hand, BJJ fighters spend hours and hours at BJJ schools learning... guess what? Yes, only BJJ. After a couple of years, they are specialists in BJJ. Do grapplers learn boxing techniques? Yes, they do. But just a little. They know they will always be ground fighting specialists and they understand they only have to learn enough so they won't be knocked down in the process of taking you to the ground. They also understand that boxing is a very very small part of what they need, because the rely in the ground fighting techniques to finish the opponent. What do Gong Fu guys do ? Exactly what they shouldn't. Instead of training what they are supposed to, Gong Fu, they decide that they have to divide their time between Gong Fu and BJJ or wrestling. They should do what BJJ fighters do. Train a lot in what their are supposed to be specialists ( Gong Fu ) and have a minimum knowledge about ground fighting, so that in the case they go to the ground, they will no be finished. So what happens today is that grapplers are extremely good in what they do ( specialists ) and have a minimum knowledge of the standing game ( a lot of people is doing crosstraining and they are very good standing and on the ground, but the best fighters are still the specialists ). At the other hand, Gong Fu fighters are not so good standing and are also not so good on the ground. Some might even argue that " I train only Gong Fu and I still don't feel safe! ". Well my friend, the question is: what kind of Gong Fu are you training? If it is the " kick boxing " kind of Gong Fu, you will never feel safe anyway. For this is only sport. Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan.

5 - Mixed martial arts are the best - Nothing, nothing is better than specialization. When people have only part of a knowledge, something incomplete, they have to look out for other sources of knowledge.Imagine you have a half filled glass of water (your Gong Fu) but you have to fill the glass up. The problem is that you don;t have water anymore (you have a limited knowledge about the Gong Fu principles). In this case you have to find out other liquids to fill the glass up. You have a little bit of orange juice (grappling) and you have a bit of, say tequila (kick boxing). At the end, the glass is filled up, but the truth is that you have only a bit of everything. So as a fighter, you are not very good in grappling, not very good in kick boxing and not very good at Gong Fu. You have a bit of everything and at the same time you have nothing.

It's true that many BJJ are now going a bit deep into boxing and Thai boxing, but take a look at the best guys ever : Rickson Gracie, Helio Gracie, Carlson Gracie, and Rolls Gracie; they are or were absolute specialist in BJJ. How about the famous Che Yi Zhai, Guo Yun Sheng, Wang Xiang Zhai ? Ok. Tell this guys they should mix a lot of martial arts together. Guys that never lost a single fight after they were well trained.


The objective of this article is not to teach any Xing Yi Quan techniques, or teach you how to handle a grappler. This things can't be learn through the Net. For this you need a good teacher that really understands the principle of XY. What I do want to do, is to clarify all these myths that were created around the grappling arts. If you learn Xing Yi from a good teacher, you have all the conditions to defeat a grappler. The problem right know is that since 1920's BJJ was being perfected and focusing itself in street fight efficiency, while Chinese Gong Fu, as we saw, was being modified into a kind of beautiful dance.
 
MMA is a Reality Check
Facts not Fiction
><><><
 
All those people who say all fights end on the ground...isn't it peculiar how they always seem to be the same sort of people who are selling grappling books and videos, teaching a grappling style, or studying the same? Hmmm...
I concur. Specialization. Maybe after you become a really badass striker and/or grappler, then go ahead and learn the other game. But to learn both at once is silly and will dilute your studies.
:asian:
 
I've been Doing M>A for a While
I started in Striking
I strike Well

Im a Better Submisson Guy

Learning both at the same time
is smart---------------

Id rather know Today
Then wonder Y i got my ____ kicked
Tomorow

><><><
:wavey: :idea: :wavey:
 
Originally posted by ace

I've been Doing M>A for a While
I started in Striking
I strike Well

Im a Better Submisson Guy

Learning both at the same time
is smart---------------

Id rather know Today
Then wonder Y i got my ____ kicked
Tomorow

><><><
:wavey: :idea: :wavey:

By whos standards do you strike well? I agree its good to be well rounded, but learning both at the same time can be very detrimental. May I ask how long you have studied MA ?

7sm
 
My Jkd/ Mauy Thai Thougt i striked well.

I used Thai Kicks in My MMA Fight
I won with an inside Heel hook.
 
Truth Hurts When It comes to Reality!
MMA is a Reality Check
Facts not Fiction

**********
Thats a FBI & PD Rating
Facts not Fiction.

*******
He who Waits gets left behined!!!
I've been Doing M>A for a While
I started in Striking
I strike Well

Im a Better Submisson Guy

Learning both at the same time
is smart---------------

Id rather know Today
Then wonder Y i got my ____ kicked
Tomorow

Such well thought out and convincing points.
:shrug:
 
Im short for Words
Less Talk more Action

I like Facts not Fiction
 
Hmmmmmmmmm.......Allthough I agree that grappling is usually the best form of fighting I disagree that most fights end on the ground. Ive found that I cant let it go to the ground cuz as soon as Im there I get battered by his freinds. So I kinda disagree with that.
 
Originally posted by kenposcum

All those people who say all fights end on the ground...isn't it peculiar how they always seem to be the same sort of people who are selling grappling books and videos, teaching a grappling style, or studying the same? Hmmm...
I concur. Specialization. Maybe after you become a really badass striker and/or grappler, then go ahead and learn the other game. But to learn both at once is silly and will dilute your studies.
:asian:

The statistics often cited, is actually the statistics of law enforcement encounter where the suspect is sub dued to the ground. Hence it is not a reflection of actual fights.

If anyone thinks striking does not work, please check out the Fight Clips on this site. http://www.fighttraining.com/
 
I can Strike Ground Fight
And im pretty Good with
My Arnis Skills.
 
It's up to the individual.

Those who are naturally gifted/coordinated can learn grappling and striking (whatever mix) at the same time.
 
It's a pity about them believing that Helio Gracie created the system from JJ and never got beaten by any Judo guys!

Jigoro Kano adapted JJ to create the BJJ techniques (though not the training method).

Kimura snapped Helio Gracies arm, and his corner threw in the towel, in 1952 I think.

I respect BJJ, but must everybody believe the myths?

I think Judo was the first 'unbeatable art'. Wasn't that a long time ago?
 
Funny how things get so interesting when I'm gone a little while...
Look, I'm going to talk from personal experience here. First of all the "FBI and PD statistics" thing is PURE bs. How exactly is it that they managed to get stats on EVERY single fight ever? I can tell you, I would be wearing a nice orange jumpsuit right now if the FBI knew about every single act of violence/physical altercation/"fight" that occured. Check out KennethKu and Master of Blades posts earlier.
Second, I have no compunctions whatsoever about biting some fool who wants to wrestle. This is a fight, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to win, whether it means grabbing your nuts (and I'm welcome to hear jokes made at my expense about THAT comment) or biting your neck open or jamming my fingers into your eye sockets and popping your eyes out like party favors. I don't care...it's the street, and if I have to blind you or take a chunk out of your flesh or get my buddies to smack you with a brick or drop a knife into your gut while you're trying to get that kick-*** armbar on me to beat you...just GUESS what I'm gonna do?
I really hope this doesn't disturb anyone, but it's the truth. Grapplers try to talk like that's all there is to it sometimes, and I'll agree, in a sport setting, SOMETIMES the best grappler does win. Sometimes Maurice Smith or somebody kicks their head off. Remember that competition is not combat. Further, remember Murphy's First Rule of Combat: "You are not a superman(I think I saw that on some crappy poster I saw at Army surplus)."
I prefer to punch bad people because things end quicker and I stay clean and fresh and I don't get tired, so I can punch his a-hole buddies, or help them carry him away.
:asian:
 
KempoS sir

"...I really hope this doesn't disturb anyone, but it's the truth...."

Yes it is the truth. And no , it is not disturbing at all. Fighting as is, has no rules. You are absolutely correct to use all weapons and all skills available.
 
...and again, no response from the grappling supremascists...
:asian:
 
Yet Uuuu guy's get to say what Ya want
 
ks he say:
First of all the "FBI and PD statistics" thing is PURE bs.

Actually it's not bs just a horribly mis-applied statistic.

The statistic is for how many fights between a perpetrator and the police go to the ground. It is 90%.

That means 10% were cuffed upright or got away.

90% were cuffed on the ground (pretty much standard procedure).

It's got nothing to do with self defence, or ground-fighting. It simply means that perps are easier to cuff on the ground (wow!)

Now there are lies, there are damned lies and there are ... well you know the rest.
 

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