Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Hanzou]

Hanzou chooses to believe that MMA is the ultimate test of what works or doesn't work in any violent encounter, even though many real-world violent situations have very different circumstances from what happens in the cage and those differences can greatly affect the techniques, strategies, and tactics which will be effective. I suspect this is because MMA provides something knowable. You can watch a bunch of MMA fights and end up with a pretty confident assessment of what will or won't work without all that pesky uncertainty.

Well actually I don't feel that MMA is the ultimate test of what works and doesn't work. I definitely feel that it is a test of what works in general, but it certainly isn't the end all be all of martial arts.

However, one of the reasons I began Bjj was because of its prevalence in MMA, and how other styles reacted to it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well actually I don't feel that MMA is the ultimate test of what works and doesn't work. I definitely feel that it is a test of what works in general, but it certainly isn't the end all be all of martial arts.

However, one of the reasons I began Bjj was because of its prevalence in MMA, and how other styles reacted to it.

In that case, I apologize for misrepresenting your views. It did seem that was the direction you were going.

I have no problem with the idea of MMA as a test of certain aspects of what works under certain conditions.

 

[Hanzou]

You do realize that other styles have different skill sets to what you do and what is high percentage for one art is low percentage in another right?

I've seen people from your organization train and spar. I have yet to see any of them even attempt to perform a neck strike on their partner.

Probably because they chose to be a grappling art.

Because Kano realized you couldn't perform strikes at full power and speed safely in a training environment without restricting them in some way.

Still just your ill informed opinion based on lack of knowledge and insight. Not supported by reality.

How exactly is the notion of hitting something and getting hit by something makes you more used to hitting something and getting hit by something not jive with reality? That's exactly how Muay Thai, Boxers, Bjjers, Judokas, etc train, and they do pretty well for themselves.

Obviously, and sporting competitions are not the same as a self defense situation. In non-contact sparring I can practice some things you can't do any other way.

I love the notion that since someone is doing a martial sport they're unable to apply that athleticism or ability in a dangerous situation. You really think a professional boxer couldn't knock out some idiot in a bar? You really don't think a wrestler could supplex someone into the concrete? You really don't think a MMA practitioner couldn't choke out someone trying to rape her?

In fact, would argue that the martial athlete is MORE capable of performing their abilities and techniques than a martial artist would be.

Yet strangely not Karate.

But you do acknowledge that TKD is simply Japanese karate with more kicking right?

No it is not, because the mannequin is not moving, in sparring the person you are sparring is also sparring you.

And also not giving you any resistance, just like the mannequin.

And none of that can not be done with non-contact sparring. My opponent is trying to get through my defences and prevent me from doing the same..

And its still not the same as you hitting him, and him hitting you. That changes the entire dynamic of your sparring session.

 

[Raymond]

This thread is nearly 50 pages so obviously I didn't read most of it but just to reply to the thread title with my $0.02.

First you should examine what is considered a traditional art? Once you get past that debate, then you can go further.

If any martial art lacks efficacy in MMA, then the reason would solely be in the training methods of the person doing it. If you never practice your techniques with a fully resisting opponent in a live manner, and are not familiar with the strategies that other people from other backgrounds might try against you then you are going to not be unsuccessful. Also, some arts specifically have philosophies that discourage ruled competition or aggression, so obviously those arts will not have practitioners in MMA. MMA is a sport with rules and those rules can favor certain fighting strategies sometimes. If you don't take your art and train it in context of the rules you are competing under, than what are you doing?

I like MMA and have watched for a long time, I train with an MMA club and have trained with many pro MMA fighters (but I am not myself). However, I do not view success in MMA to be the sole yardstick to measure an art's worth.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I've seen people from your organization train and spar. I have yet to see any of them even attempt to perform a neck strike on their partner.

And I have trained and sparred with countless people from my organization and have seen and performed hundreds of them, but then you know more than me don't you?

Take the following video:

1:51 - reverse knife hand to the neck, 2:06 spinning knife hand to the throat, there's 2 right there.

Because Kano realized you couldn't perform strikes at full power and speed safely in a training environment without restricting them in some way.

So all the boxers, kick boxers and MMA fighters are restricting their strikes in some way, but I thought they were training with full resistance? Look what Judo chose to do or not to do is irrelevant, other arts chose differently. To perform martial arts safely you have to restrict something and you can either sacrifice speed and power, what techniques you can use, what targets you can strike for or you can wear padding, or you can do what we do in my art and restrict the contact thereby enabling you to use full speed and power safely.

How exactly is the notion of hitting something and getting hit by something makes you more used to hitting something and getting hit by something not jive with reality? That's exactly how Muay Thai, Boxers, Bjjers, Judokas, etc train, and they do pretty well for themselves.

I love the notion that since someone is doing a martial sport they're unable to apply that athleticism or ability in a dangerous situation. You really think a professional boxer couldn't knock out some idiot in a bar? You really don't think a wrestler could supplex someone into the concrete? You really don't think a MMA practitioner couldn't choke out someone trying to rape her?

In fact, would argue that the martial athlete is MORE capable of performing their abilities and techniques than a martial artist would be.

And where exactly did I say that?

But you do acknowledge that TKD is simply Japanese karate with more kicking right?

If I wanted to use a straw man argument with little understanding of TKD then yes.

And also not giving you any resistance, just like the mannequin.

If you think that full contact sparring and competitions is the only form of resistance and that non-contact sparring is a complete lack of resistance then you do not understand that term very well.

And its still not the same as you hitting him, and him hitting you. That changes the entire dynamic of your sparring session.

Which is a very good reason to work on your defenses so you don't get hit. Whenever we get hit we adapt, we don't stop for 5 minutes after a slight tap on the groin , we don't get separated by a referee when we get too close or stop between rounds and reset, that changes the dynamic too.