I was just poking around on some of the other MA forums and folks were really down on Wing Chun. On one site, the most popular thread was a WC bashing site. I'm recently coming back to the art after a very long absence, and all this really surprises me. What's up with all this anger?
Why DO they hate us so much?
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
Amen to that S.
Geezer, you just have to accept that there is a dark side to the internet: the ease with which unhappy people leading frustrated lives can channel their resentment into X-bashing, where X can be anything at all. There is a kind of internet-lynch-mob phenomenon that is increasingly common, and a matter of some concern, and takes the form of a kind of mass bullying and flaming instigated by a few people who have their own private agendas, and the sociopathic inclination and skills to get the ball rolling. If you want to see a really rabid example of this sort of thing, check out the many threads and posts devoted to Taekwondo that you'll probably find on that same (and/or similar) sites. Just remember, most of the people who posted to that site are probably totally clueless about the content of Wing Chun. Face to face with a sufficiently cold-blooded and experienced practitioner irritated beyond endurance by their ignorant abuse, most of them would probably wind up on the local orthopædic or internal medicine floors of their local ERs. I've seen good Wing Chunners and would not want to fall foul of any of them :uhohh:...
Remember Schiller's wonderful line: Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain. It ain' gonna change. As Sukerkin says, you just have to ignore it—it means nothing, nothing at all.
I'm sure he was just slumming, MA-C!
It's true, we seem to be the only MA site which has an active policiy of discouraging art-bashing in any form. To me, MAs are like the Bach cantatas: this isn't a bad one in the lot....
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
It's mostly the result of bad showing of Wing Chun in MMA events, and the ensuing MMA-er backlash of superiority banter. Of course, as many of us know, Wing Chun works very well in real life, as do many arts that have had bad or no showings in "The Octagon".
Train hard in your respective art, dealing with realistic scenarios. Mix it up, play with contact. You know what you can do, just remember, we do MARTIAL ARTS. All these folks that are afraid to get hit make me ill.
The more your sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war. Or put another way...
"Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield."
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I'm going with Jealousy
tellner
Senior Master
It's not just jealousy.
Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun as a whole got a bad reputation in the last couple decades. Part of it was the constant bickering among the various factions in the greater system. Part of it was the smug superiority of the more prominent members of the community. "The only way to beat chain punching is with superior chain punching", "Centerline theory is unbeatable", "If you can do chi sao it will beat everything", "If you get taken to the ground it's only because you didn't really understand Wing Chun" and all the rest of that. Asinine challenges and backpedalling when called on them left a bad taste in a lot of mouths.
Lots of other people have done that sort of thing. WC was just in the right place at the right time to have it come home to roost. It wasn't the style so much as the attitude that seemed to go with it at the time. Some people still remember.
Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun as a whole got a bad reputation in the last couple decades. Part of it was the constant bickering among the various factions in the greater system. Part of it was the smug superiority of the more prominent members of the community. "The only way to beat chain punching is with superior chain punching", "Centerline theory is unbeatable", "If you can do chi sao it will beat everything", "If you get taken to the ground it's only because you didn't really understand Wing Chun" and all the rest of that. Asinine challenges and backpedalling when called on them left a bad taste in a lot of mouths.
Lots of other people have done that sort of thing. WC was just in the right place at the right time to have it come home to roost. It wasn't the style so much as the attitude that seemed to go with it at the time. Some people still remember.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Like I said jealousy :uhyeah:
I only trained Wing Chun for a very short time and I am aware of the politics of it and the arogance in it, but it is not really anymore than just about any other MA out there.
I no longer get much into the politics of things MA so jealousy works for me, although I am aware that is not the whole truth
Tellner's point is an important one, in explaining how it is that certain MAs get set up as targets. The majority of WC practitioners are no more arrogant or offensive than the majority of practitioners of any other MAs; but from what he reports, there were enough high-profile 'lightning rods' to give some of the more reactive members of the cybersphere a big fat target for their resentment. The prominence of TKD as an Olympic sport has had the same effect in that part of the MA world. Prominent names, zillion-dollar publicity, and high-profile posturing—especially in a world of instant media reporting—can wreak havoc in any domain. Personalities trump content every time.
Talk to anyone who's been in one or the other of the TMAs and you'll see the same thing. Karate, TKD, Aikido, WC... all have taken their lumps in the MA internet archipelago.
So what should all that hostile criticism mean for WC practitioners? Precisely nothing. If you understand that this reaction was, as per tellner's account, a response to personalities, not to content, then the resulting dissing of WC has as much basis in practical reality as the lives of the twits that People magazine raves on about have for practical reality. Go ahead and pursue your craft and ignore what is, in the end, just a lot of... noise.
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
Don't worry, the American Silat community is the same. For all of the nice hard-working Silat players out there, the few fools out there that proclaim themselves as supreme ultimate masters over all others make the majority look bad.
They'll pass on soon, however, & hopefully their disciples will come to their senses...
They'll pass on soon, however, & hopefully their disciples will come to their senses...
The same could be said for aikido, Doc. What really ruined it for the rest of us were those folks that decided that aikido should be very much akin to the philosophy of the hippie communes of the late '60s. When large groups of westerners decided that there should be more meditation than technique in their art and called it aikido, well, suddenly the entire art got branded as nothing more than a bunch of people sitting around holding hands singing "ohmmmm" to one another.
Mark and Bob have given the best bits of advice yet on this one, far as I'm concerned. Train hard in the art that you love and don't worry about what others think...easier said than done, I know. This phenomenon is even included within most arts when dealing with another sub-style of the umbrella art. I study Nihon Goshin Aikido. We don't trace our lineage back to Ueshiba. You can't believe the crap we get from hombu stylists for not being "real" aikido-ka. "You guys are more -jutsu than do!" they'll yell. Or "If you don't trace back to O'Sensei it's not really aikido." It used to bug me. Eventually, I realized that I was training for ME not them and it stopped bothering me.
Mark and Bob have given the best bits of advice yet on this one, far as I'm concerned. Train hard in the art that you love and don't worry about what others think...easier said than done, I know. This phenomenon is even included within most arts when dealing with another sub-style of the umbrella art. I study Nihon Goshin Aikido. We don't trace our lineage back to Ueshiba. You can't believe the crap we get from hombu stylists for not being "real" aikido-ka. "You guys are more -jutsu than do!" they'll yell. Or "If you don't trace back to O'Sensei it's not really aikido." It used to bug me. Eventually, I realized that I was training for ME not them and it stopped bothering me.
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
I don't get it. How can you do Aikido with no connection to Ueshiba (O-sensei)? Now, I can understand in Ninjutsu, if someone didn't trace their lineage back to Hatsumi-sensei, since there are alot of wannabee goobers out there. But practicing Aikido and having no connection to Ueshiba is like doing Kyokushikai with no connection to Mas Oyama.
Do you have a link to your dojo, or something more about your style? I'm curious if you have more connection to schools like Daito Ryu? Thanks :wavey:
I'm unaware of any MMA link to 'hating' Whin Chun.I know of only one pro fighter here who has practised it, that's Sami Berik. He's a really nice guy, his records not too good because he choses the wrong opponents, nothing to do with his style. He's a good fighter and no one to my knowledge has ever said anything bad about Whin Chun when talking about him.
Just follow the link in my sig. Ueshiba trained in DRAJJ with Shiodo Morita. Shiodo came up with Nihon Goshin while Ueshiba was creating his style of aikido. Many an argument has ensued over lineages and such. Me, I don't argue...'cause I don't care. I get what I want from the art I train and that's enough for me.
First off, thanks for the support, guys. It's nice to know that there is still some civility out there. And, Tellner, you are telling it like it is. During the 80's, Wing Chun/Tsun was my passion. In the 90's, I "dropped out" for a variety of reasons, such as a change of career and starting a family. But also because of the politics, arrogance, and excessive fees to continue my instruction and maintain my "si-fu" certification. Not to mention that I enjoyed a bit of cross training to keep things "real". That didn't go over well at all! Many years later, when I came back to training, I found that a lot of other people had worked through the same problems and we could train together without all that BS. And, with more respect for other MAs. I'm also continuing in Escrima, getting some "powerful" (ouch!) input from a boxer, and hope to be doing some wrestling with my son--all on a safe level that a geezer can handle. No ego, no delusion. Oh, and MA Caver, thanks for the slap! I'm through slumming on those other sites.
Bodhisattva
Blue Belt
I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.
But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art." It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.
But I have no hatred for wing chun practitioner's, that would just be silly and misplaced.
However, I am quite annoyed with instructors who charge money for Wing Chun as a form of Self-Defense.
It isn't, and that's fraud if they accept money for it.
I'm afraid you can't just say that and not explain why you think that!
Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Exactly what's the basis for your claim (which amounts to an assertion that no WC practitioner, no matter how good, is going to be successful in a no-rules fight against an `athletic, competent fighter')? Just how do you know this?
