Why the opening action??

LFJ

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^^^^^^ You have no credibility when you make claims that you can't back up.

Such as? This is a claim you have not backed up.

You have no credibility when you harshly criticize what others are doing in a video but won't produce a video that shows how you would do it better.

Even if I had no better solution, that would not invalidate my criticism of what you do.

That's just saying "if you can't make a video of yourself doing better, I don't have to consider valid criticism."

You have no credibility when you make fun of and denigrate what others choose to share in video, discouraging anyone from wanting to continue or begin to share video.

That has nothig to do with credibility, anyway, but I don't make fun of it, I critically analyze it, and you choose to take personal offense because I don't pat your back like you want.

You have no credibility when you are consistently "unfriendly" towards people on the forum.

Having a different point of view is not unfriendly.

I try to stay pretty technical in our discussions, while you call me every name you can get away with.

You have no credibility when YOU talk yourself into a corner and then use "double talk" and diversion to get out of it.

That doesn't happen.

You have no credibility when you repeatedly refuse to answer questions or elaborate on what you are saying.

I do that, it just depends on who I'm talking to and how confrontational they're being about things. That's why you don't get much, because you don't keep it technical.

It shouldn't take goading and repeated prompting to get someone to share even a little bit about their system.

Same answer as above, but remember I have probably shared more in-depth information about my system than anyone else on this forum.

You're either here to share and discuss freely or you are not. If you are just here to criticize others......

Criticism is part of sharing and discussing freely. If you are not comfortable with criticism......
 

geezer

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Criticism is part of sharing and discussing freely. If you are not comfortable with criticism......

Sometimes I'm not comfortable with criticism. Maybe I'm just insecure. Apparently you are too. Otherwise, maybe you'd be more open about who you are? Maybe not.

Then again, as you correctly pointed out, this is not an on-line dating site. Too bad. I really think you and KPM would make a great pair. You know what they say, "opposites attract" ...and you two already argue just like an old married couple! :D

So, without a clue as to who you are, or who you trained under, how do we know that you fairly represent the WSL-VT branch as you claim-to? I guess I'll have to go by the number of "likes" and "agrees" you get from other WSL-VT guys like T-Ray, Callen, and Lobo 66 on your technical explanations. And they do generally support you in that regard.

Now as to how you and your computer fiancee carry on with your endless online spats --that I can do without! Don't think I'm alone in that either. ;)
 

KPM

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Such as? This is a claim you have not backed up.

---Such as??? How about starting with your claim that WSLVT is not only exactly what Ip Man taught, but is the only version of his system that isn't "broken" or "incomplete"??? That is the claim that underlies almost everything you post on this forum. That is the claim by which you judge what everyone else posts on this forum!



That's just saying "if you can't make a video of yourself doing better, I don't have to consider valid criticism."

----I considered what Phobius and Drop Bear had to say without any problem. Your criticism was just much less valid, obviously biased, and stated in a rather "unfriendly" way. But I'm not just talking about my videos. You've done it with others as well.



That has nothig to do with credibility, anyway, but I don't make fun of it, I critically analyze it, and you choose to take personal offense because I don't pat your back like you want.

---So responding with the little "funny" tab is not "making fun" of someone's post, when the post was not meant to be humorous?



Having a different point of view is not unfriendly.

---But the way you present your point of view certainly is!


I try to stay pretty technical in our discussions, while you call me every name you can get away with.

---Oh that's rich! After the treatment I got from you and your buddy Guy B. over in the "other" forum recently!!! :rolleyes: You remember, don't you? When you and Guy B. called me half a dozen different nasty names and the mods would do nothing about it? At least the mods don't let you get away with that here!

That doesn't happen.

---Yeah! Dream on! ;)


I do that, it just depends on who I'm talking to and how confrontational they're being about things. That's why you don't get much, because you don't keep it technical.

---I'm not talking about me. Several people have asked you direct questions recently that you have just ignored. And this has certainly happened relatively frequently in the past.


Same answer as above, but remember I have probably shared more in-depth information about my system than anyone else on this forum.

----I don't think so. And almost everything you share is after pages of drama and goading to get you to do it.


Criticism is part of sharing and discussing freely. If you are not comfortable with criticism.....

---Oh, I have no problem with criticism. But I have a problem with someone that is consistently overly critical and judgmental of others while at the same time being unwilling to back up what he says.

---But Geezer is right. Likely no one cares what we are saying (other than your "yes man" T Ray) and would rather we both just shut up. So let's get on to better things.
 

LFJ

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How about starting with your claim that WSLVT is not only exactly what Ip Man taught,

That's not a claim, but an informed opinion. I have outlined in great detail why it is very likely.

but is the only version of his system that isn't "broken" or "incomplete"???

Again, not a claim I have made. Most common versions out there do seem to be non-fuctional and full of gaps. I've gone to lengths to show why, and you came to the conclusion yourself recently that it often doesn't work in sparring/fighting and needs WB to help it.

That is the claim by which you judge what everyone else posts on this forum!

No. I judge everything I read or see fairly and independently, and that just happens to be the common result.

Your criticism was just much less valid, obviously biased, and stated in a rather "unfriendly" way.

I have no bias, since what you or others do doesn't affect my training. You can do whatever you want.

I'm also not being unfriendly. I just try not to sugarcoat criticism so you don't get the wrong idea.

If my criticism is invalid then you should be able to show that while keeping the discussion 100% technical.

---So responding with the little "funny" tab is not "making fun" of someone's post, when the post was not meant to be humorous?

I haven't rated your videos "funny", only some of your posts in which you say things I find amusing.

I have only responded to your videos with technical comments; opinions or advice.

After the treatment I got from you and your buddy Guy B. over in the "other" forum recently!!! :rolleyes: You remember, don't you? When you and Guy B. called me half a dozen different nasty names and the mods would do nothing about it? At least the mods don't let you get away with that here!

I think I just used the words liar and troll, when you were lying or trolling.

That's not the same as idiot, dense, and anything xxxx could stand for, which is just unnecessary insults.

Several people have asked you direct questions recently that you have just ignored. And this has certainly happened relatively frequently in the past.

Last time you accused me of this it turned out that I had answered your question in the post immediately following it.

almost everything you share is after pages of drama and goading to get you to do it.

Often because you divert the technical discussion.

I have a problem with someone that is consistently overly critical and judgmental of others while at the same time being unwilling to back up what he says.

I don't choose what I agree with, so there is no being overly-critical. I just happen to disagree with most things you say or do. It is not my choice to be hard on you.

And, I do back up my criticism with ample explanation. Again, demanding video of me doing better is just deflecting the criticism.
 

KPM

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Again, not a claim I have made. Most common versions out there do seem to be non-fuctional and full of gaps. I've gone to lengths to show why, and you came to the conclusion yourself recently that it often doesn't work in sparring/fighting and needs WB to help it.

---Yet you have not proven that YOUR version of Wing Chun is any different. And you won't post videos of yourself showing those technical differences to prove that what you do is any different or superior to what others are doing. You post Chi Sau videos of PB because that's all you've got. When asked to post your own video to illustrate your points you refuse. Again, you can "talk the talk" but don't demonstrate that you can "walk the walk." You want to be seen as the resident expert on WSLVT, but aren't able to demonstrate that you can actually "practice what you preach." You frequently tell others that what they are doing is wrong, but won't show that you can do it any better. No credibility.


I judge everything I read or see fairly and independently, I have no bias, I'm also not being unfriendly.

---Holy moly! Talk about lack of insight! :eek:


If my criticism is invalid then you should be able to show that while keeping the discussion 100% technical.

---Hard to stay 100% technical when you repeatedly refuse to see or acknowledge any technical points that contradict your view. That's why everything with you is an argument and NOT a "technical discussion." And its like arguing with a fence post! :banghead:




Last time you accused me of this it turned out that I had answered your question in the post immediately following it.

---You answered the question after I goaded you into answering it....after over 50 posts on the topic.....a thread where you HAD posted multiple times WITHOUT answering the OP's question.

---So if I'm so wrong about you....why don't you answer Geezer's recent questions? If I'm so wrong about you... why don't you start your own thread here and share something about your Wing Chun in a positive way? But no, I'm pretty sure you'll just reply with more of the same. Arguing. :rolleyes:
 

LFJ

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You post Chi Sau videos of PB because that's all you've got.

I can't remember ever posting a chi-sau video of PB.

You seem oddly obsessed with his chi-sau for some reason.

When asked to post your own video to illustrate your points you refuse. Again, you can "talk the talk" but don't demonstrate that you can "walk the walk." You want to be seen as the resident expert on WSLVT, but aren't able to demonstrate that you can actually "practice what you preach." You frequently tell others that what they are doing is wrong, but won't show that you can do it any better. No credibility.

You're not getting it. This is an ad hominem.

Assuming my own VT sucks, that itself does not invalidate my criticism of your WC.

You still have to address the issues with your WC face-on.

---Hard to stay 100% technical when you repeatedly refuse to see or acknowledge any technical points that contradict your view.

By this you mean you want desperately that I agree with your technical points, and you get emotional when I don't and counter them instead, and you start name-calling.

Again, I can't just choose to agree with you and pat your back when I don't agree.

If your points are flawed I will not "acknowledge" them as true or valid to save you face. That would be dishonest of me.

---You answered the question after I goaded you into answering it....after over 50 posts on the topic.....a thread where you HAD posted multiple times WITHOUT answering the OP's question.

Wrong. I answered immediately when it was asked of me. You were shown to be mistaken. You even mistook Danny T's post for mine.

You need to read more carefully, instead of searching for something to accuse me of in an emotional haste.

---So if I'm so wrong about you....why don't you answer Geezer's recent questions?

What my name is, where I live, etc.?

There is no need for you to know this.

why don't you start your own thread here and share something about your Wing Chun in a positive way?

I prefer to discuss specific topics as they come up. So?

Starting threads is not a membership requirement, just as posting videos or personal information are not.
 

geezer

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Seriously LFJ, there are some problems with your online discussions.

First of all, you claim not to be biased. Of course you are biased. Everybody has a bias. The fact that you don't admit this weakens your arguments. I guess you could say that this attitude creates an immediate negative bias in me, as the reader. ;)

Secondly, you claim to back up your position with logical and totally convincing arguments. Well, you do write well and make some good points. But no oral or written discussion of theory and technique can be taken as absolute proof. Martial arts is not mathematics or an exercise in deductive reasoning.

Many highly logical and plausible theories are disproven when put to the physical test. So, lacking the means for open and public testing of what you say on a large scale --such as what we have with competitive martial arts, your theories remain nothing more than a well-informed opinion backed by your personal experience, i.e. testimonial evidence worthy of serious consideration, but a long way from an objective proof.

Finally, your inability to recognize the possible validity of opposing points of view leads you into tedious and quarrelsome arguments with other equally stubborn individuals. The fact that you cannot control this tendency, and moreover refuse to even recognize it in yourself, is a little disturbing. Is it possible that you don't realize how others perceive you? Honestly, I would expect a a little more introspection and humility from someone who is both obviously intelligent and who claims to be comfortable with criticism.
 

LFJ

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First of all, you claim not to be biased. Of course you are biased. Everybody has a bias. The fact that you don't admit this weakens your arguments.

How do you mean?

KPM is suggesting I purposefully disagree with him because I just want to argue or don't want him to be right.

There is no such bias in my arguments. And, if I wanted him to be wrong, I wouldn't comment at all.

Secondly, you claim to back up your position with logical and totally convincing arguments. Well, you do write well and make some good points. But no oral or written discussion of theory and technique can be taken as absolute proof. Martial arts is not mathematics or an exercise in deductive reasoning.

We aren't stood in front of each other. This is a discussion board. You can take criticism into honest consideration, and test things for yourself, or run away from the problem and demand that I post video of myself doing better. This is taking personal offense to purely technical criticism.

Finally, your inability to recognize the possible validity of opposing points of view leads you into tedious and quarrelsome arguments

Again, you seem to be assuming that I am choosing to disagree for the sake of argument.

I have actually given fair consideration to other views, but if in the end I don't find those views to be valid, it's not an "inability to recognize". You just have to live with the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you.

Is it possible that you don't realize how others perceive you?

No. I just don't particularly care. I come for technical discussion that has nothing to do with personality. Just keep things technical, emotions out of it, and we have no problem.
 

Phobius

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How do you mean?

KPM is suggesting I purposefully disagree with him because I just want to argue or don't want him to be right.

There is no such bias in my arguments. And, if I wanted him to be wrong, I wouldn't comment at all.



We aren't stood in front of each other. This is a discussion board. You can take criticism into honest consideration, and test things for yourself, or run away from the problem and demand that I post video of myself doing better. This is taking personal offense to purely technical criticism.



Again, you seem to be assuming that I am choosing to disagree for the sake of argument.

I have actually given fair consideration to other views, but if in the end I don't find those views to be valid, it's not an "inability to recognize". You just have to live with the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you.



No. I just don't particularly care. I come for technical discussion that has nothing to do with personality. Just keep things technical, emotions out of it, and we have no problem.

I disagree with people here often and sometimes I feel like I am training a kind of WC so unlike everyone else here even though I train WT.

So LFJ, the technical terms you describe often fit my view and how I was taught WC.

Only difference of any kind is that my version may be more yielding but with a whipping tail with teeth. Yours in my view have horns and is slightly more standing it's ground.

Not easy to describe how I mean and maybe you won't understand but I agree much with what you write. But you sound like a dogma? Sometimes saying things that sound like your opinion is the right and only one.

This results in fight anytime someone disagrees or misunderstood you and don't have it in them to let it go.

I do not however believe one true martial art but many different ones all complete in their own way. The rest is just level of understanding from its practitioners.

Arguing art is always pointless unless someone can say they know their art 100%. Such a person is a liar or a believer. All others can only discuss what they know themselves and as such it only applies to themselves.
 

geezer

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...I come for technical discussion that has nothing to do with personality. Just keep things technical, emotions out of it, and we have no problem.

Your best posts have been those where you have followed your own advice above.

Next time you feel like getting into it with KPM, I suggest you re-read your own words. Same goes for the other party!
 
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LFJ

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Arguing art is always pointless unless someone can say they know their art 100%. Such a person is a liar or a believer.

Why do you say that?

VT is designed to be quite simple. It can certainly be understood 100%. It's reaching perfect execution that always eludes. But, that's why we continue to train.

If one doesn't understand what they are doing it can lead to many misconceptions and degradation of the system if they try to develop upon what they don't understand, or simply get carried away with an incomplete idea.
 

Phobius

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Why do you say that?

VT is designed to be quite simple. It can certainly be understood 100%. It's reaching perfect execution that always eludes. But, that's why we continue to train.

If one doesn't understand what they are doing it can lead to many misconceptions and degradation of the system if they try to develop upon what they don't understand, or simply get carried away with an incomplete idea.

I did not mean anything by it besides this, when you understand your art to 100% there is no point in training it anymore other than it being fun.

When every single detail is available to you and you know everything... what else is there? I believe it is a general belief in Kung Fu that you never reach 100% understanding until after you died. Even if you yourself created your art.
 

LFJ

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I did not mean anything by it besides this, when you understand your art to 100% there is no point in training it anymore other than it being fun.

When every single detail is available to you and you know everything... what else is there? I believe it is a general belief in Kung Fu that you never reach 100% understanding until after you died. Even if you yourself created your art.

Okay, well, I disagree because as I just said, VT is designed to be simple and understandable, but, understanding it fully doesn't mean your execution will be perfect.

That
is why we keep training.

Not to gather more and more information or new techniques, but to improve skills.

Understanding just provides direction.

If you don't understand the big picture and what you're actually doing at each stage, you're unlikely to end up with functional skills.
 

Phobius

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Okay, well, I disagree because as I just said, VT is designed to be simple and understandable, but, understanding it fully doesn't mean your execution will be perfect.

That
is why we keep training.

Not to gather more and more information or new techniques, but to improve skills.

Understanding just provides direction.

If you don't understand the big picture and what you're actually doing at each stage, you're unlikely to end up with functional skills.

You and me clearly have a different opinion on what "understanding" or rather "knowing" means. (Understanding means you understand yourself, your opponent and your art in every single moment of your life. Clearly you understand your art but understanding yourself and your opponent is probably another matter.)

Since my opinion is the one that shaped my argument on "100%" I win. And my victory means exactly this, stop arguing about silly stuff like what I said because if you do not understand that then this is the very essence of what I was trying to say.

Now when we are past arguing my semantics, do you disagree with me about arguing martial arts being pointless? Instead we should focus our effort on A) explain ourselves and our techniques or B) walk away. Simply put you will never understand someone you can not discuss with, so why bother since it is not like that guy will understand you anyway. He will not wake up one day and say you are right and he is wrong. He will one day forget all about you and never think back and you spent a lot of effort and time in your life doing nothing good. Like I am doing now. ;)

Easy to give a tip to others that I do not follow myself.
 

LFJ

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(Understanding means you understand yourself, your opponent and your art in every single moment of your life. Clearly you understand your art but understanding yourself and your opponent is probably another matter.)

You initially said it's impossible to understand your art. That comes across as technical.

Now you're getting all philosophical and talking about understanding other people at all times....

do you disagree with me about arguing martial arts being pointless? Instead we should focus our effort on A) explain ourselves and our techniques or B) walk away. Simply put you will never understand someone you can not discuss with, so why bother since it is not like that guy will understand you anyway. He will not wake up one day and say you are right and he is wrong. He will one day forget all about you and never think back and you spent a lot of effort and time in your life doing nothing good. Like I am doing now. ;)

Easy to give a tip to others that I do not follow myself.

Yes, I disagree. Understanding is important and often isn't immediately picked up by others just because you give them information. Especially when they are attached to their own understanding and resistant to being wrong and having to change.

I know some people I talk to are either too deeply invested in what they do (need to maintain sifu-status), or just too egotistical to learn.

But, this is an open forum and many people read it, just like other online forums I've posted on.

I've benefited from forum discussions myself, and I have received PMs from people who have benefitted from my posts. So, I'm glad to help, even if my discussion partner is hardheaded. That just helps make my points more obvious.
 

Phobius

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And I edit my post because maybe I missunderstood you and apologize if I did.

Just think that arguing is not exchange of information, discussion is. Arguing on forum is like driving into a brick wall and expecting the wall to move.
 
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LFJ

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Just think that arguing is not exchange of information, discussion is.

What do you call it then when I disagree with some information and give my opion on it?

I would call that discussion, but some would say if I don't just accept their explanations then I'm arguing for the sake of arguing.

That would be accepting for the sake of someone's sensative emotions. I don't do that because it's dishonest and we're all adults, I think.
 

KPM

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What do you call it then when I disagree with some information and give my opion on it?

I would call that discussion, but some would say if I don't just accept their explanations then I'm arguing for the sake of arguing.

That would be accepting for the sake of someone's sensative emotions. I don't do that because it's dishonest and we're all adults, I think.

You really don't get it, do you? You can disagree with someone's opinion without turning it into an argument. You can express your understanding, and let them have theirs. But you don't do that. You set out to prove them wrong, and typically go to lengths to do so. That's why every discussion with you turns into an argument. You always assume you are right and the other party is wrong, rather than just acknowledging that there can be different approaches to a situation or different viewpoints. You don't just give your opinion. You take it upon yourself to prove how wrong the other person's opinion is!
 
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