Why do people think grappling arts always beat striking arts?

msmitht

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I think a lot of people don't train in the middle ground between punching and grappling. This is wing chun's sweet spot though.

I also think people train in a way where they feel they have to have a lot of wind up to their punches in order to generate any power. You need to learn how to get a powerful punch without relying on muscle. Look at Bruce Lee's one inch punch. Something like that would be a very useful tool to beat a grappler, even if they already had you in a clinch.

Then again, when you are in a clinch or on the ground, your body mechanics won't be what they should because you are not in an ideal position...AKA, standing up and rooted in the ground. However, there are ways to train around that too.

I also like one of the previous comments that a takedown is easier than a KO. Some people are tough as hell and can take quite a beating.

Last but not least, we seem to be leaning toward grappling arts being better IN COMPETITION. In a bar fight, you can't grapple when some alpha male and his five friends are coming at you.
Well as a black belt in BJJ and having spent time in the Corps I can tell you that the grappling Ive had to use in self defense really worked. Competed a few times as a blue belt but that's it. Having been in a few bar brawls, none that I started, I can tell you that there is barely enough room to punch. Best tactic is to stay alert, keep head covered and find an exit.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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Well as a black belt in BJJ and having spent time in the Corps I can tell you that the grappling Ive had to use in self defense really worked. Competed a few times as a blur belt but that's it. Having been in a few bar brawls, none that I started, I can tell you that there is barely enough room to punch. Best tactic is to stay alert, keep head covered and find an exit.
"blur belt" - that's some fast BJJ!
 

Juany118

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Well as a black belt in BJJ and having spent time in the Corps I can tell you that the grappling Ive had to use in self defense really worked. Competed a few times as a blue belt but that's it. Having been in a few bar brawls, none that I started, I can tell you that there is barely enough room to punch. Best tactic is to stay alert, keep head covered and find an exit.
Well that depends on the art, in terms of punching. WC, and a couple other arts use strikes that basically only require the distance one would need to touch someone while standing up straight. Also a punch doesn't need to be at full extension to impact with force. Then let's forget punches and look to kicks to the knee and lower, knees and elbows.

I agree with your last bit though. The biggest pucker factor I ever have is going into a bar, on the job, where a fight might break out due to experience. Someone always brings friends, even if it's just to pull you off so you can't take them into custody, there are scores of weapons of opportunity, bottles, glasses, pool cures and balls etc. and the absolute last place you want to end up in that environment is on the ground tied up with one guy because as I noted above, their friends are coming and disengaging in order to address them is far more difficult.

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msmitht

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Well that depends on the art, in terms of punching. WC, and a couple other arts use strikes that basically only require the distance one would need to touch someone while standing up straight. Also a punch doesn't need to be at full extension to impact with force. Then let's forget punches and look to kicks to the knee and lower, knees and elbows.

I agree with your last bit though. The biggest pucker factor I ever have is going into a bar, on the job, where a fight might break out due to experience. Someone always brings friends, even if it's just to pull you off so you can't take them into custody, there are scores of weapons of opportunity, bottles, glasses, pool cures and balls etc. and the absolute last place you want to end up in that environment is on the ground tied up with one guy because as I noted above, their friends are coming and disengaging in order to address them is far more difficult.

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I should have said "Hard to punch when a mob is pressing you from all sides".
 

Juany118

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I should have said "Hard to punch when a mob is pressing you from all sides".

A WC punch is weird though. It's not about throwing your weight behind it, it's more about keeping your weight behind it. So a lot of the body "english" you use in other punches isn't there. Now there are stronger punches out there no doubt, but in a crush it can still be viable. Now there are limits of course but there is a reason some people describe WC as being an art one can use in a bathroom stall. Here is a video that I think illustrates the nature of the punching fairly well.

 

wingchun100

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A WC punch is weird though. It's not about throwing your weight behind it, it's more about keeping your weight behind it. So a lot of the body "english" you use in other punches isn't there. Now there are stronger punches out there no doubt, but in a crush it can still be viable. Now there are limits of course but there is a reason some people describe WC as being an art one can use in a bathroom stall. Here is a video that I think illustrates the nature of the punching fairly well.



A very good example.

You can learn to punch hard without a lot of wind-up. Has anyone ever seen KILL BILL? I am thinking of the scene where Pai Mei teaches the Bride how to punch through the piece of wood when she is super close. It might be a goofy movie, but to me that part was based on Bruce Lee's one-inch punch.
 

Ivan

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I see this a lot lately and most of it does come from the mixed martial arts, UFC fan base and to be honest. (Not referring to this forum) I am getting very tired of it, yeah I get the gracie's have their videos of them beating people from multiple styles. Then they use that as some form of crucible that bjj is the best thing ever and everything sucks in comparison.

When in reality what the videos prove is that, hey this family is very talented at what they do. Good for them, in fact that is a very great thing for them, but even they lose sometimes.

I will admit when I had to just wrestle with friends, meaning no striking. I did terrible, then they would say oh what happened to your kenpo? My response was ok want to spar then? They immediately said no which of course was because they don't want to get hit.

People are more prone to wanting to try wrestling arts compared to something where you strike eachother for this reason it seems. Then I got into higher belts in kenpo and they started showing us Judo, and my hate for grappling, or rather dislike for being in such close contact (hugging and rolling) with others went away.

I then realized that I like both, in fact I love them both, I have my preferences sure. I prefer to punch lock and elbow but that moment I tossed someone to the ground for the first time I thought to myself "whoa! I did that!?" Then the Sihing smacked me for standing there dumbfounded and ordered me to do the rest of the technique.

Anyway I had a little too much of my medication so thats why this is long winded. My point is I guess the grappler does not have some rock paper scissors advantage, just because he or she is a grappler. In fact they might be at a disadvantage vs a very talented striker becuase after all, you have to close that gap to grab them and be quick enough to grab a limb.

It is also risky as you can take a mean hit to the face, ribs ect when you are trying to land that grab or takedown. So because of this inherit disadvantage of reach, and after all, it can only take a few or even one good hit to the head and you are done. Why all this attitude of grappling art is better than a striking art?

It is a case of ignorance?
For starters, striking involves hitting someone with your fist, whereas with grappling, you're hitting someone with the planet. No matter which way you put it, the hardest and most accurate or well-placed punch in history will always pale to the result of slamming someone's entire bodyweight onto stone-cold pavement. Furthermore, UFC and MMA in general, have rulesets that give grapplers an advantage; after all, the UFC was made to promote BJJ. As an example, strikes aren't allowed at opponents laying down on the ground whilst you're standing up, but it is perfectly fine vice versa.

Lastly, almost all striking arts lack any defence against grapplers. Boxing teaches you to box, and to defeat opponents throwing punches. The same for kickboxing, modern Karate, and Taekwondo. None of these martial arts have any valuable defences against, say, a single-leg takedown, a back-take, or a suplex. Striking is by definition one-dimensional. It only works under very specific conditions. Grappling is an al-rounder: perfect regardless of whether your opponent is taller, smaller, faster, or stronger.

A proffessional striker will almost always get caught by a punch from an amateur fighter, even if their skill and experience far outweighs that of the amateur's. But grappling is methodical. There is no such thing as "lucky takes" or "lucky takedowns".
 
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Ironbear24

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You're replying to a 5 year old thread? Ok, I've had instances where someone slips and goes down with ease during a clinch so yeah it does happen. Striking is also very methodical and "lucky hits" don't happen, if you got it you either made a mistake, or are "trading" their hit so you can get past their guard and hit them harder.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Why do people think grappling arts always beat striking arts?​

Because anti-striking is possible, but anti-grappling is impossible.

If you use "rhino guard", hold your big fist with both hands, extend your arms, hide your head behind your arms, and run toward your opponent like a mad man, your opponent's attack won't be able to land on your head (it may still land on your body). When you charge in, if you can obtain a clinch and take your opponent down, the striking game end there and the grappling game start.

 

Gerry Seymour

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Why do people think grappling arts always beat striking arts?​

Because anti-striking is possible, but anti-grappling is impossible.

If you use "rhino guard", hold your big fist with both hands, extend your arms, hide your head behind your arms, and run toward your opponent like a mad man, your opponent's attack won't be able to land on your head (it may still land on your body). When you charge in, if you can obtain a clinch and take your opponent down, the striking game end there and the grappling game start.

What stops the opponent from dropping down to a deeper stance while moving off-line and punching to the face (from their lowered position). Or slipping and going for an uppercut?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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What stops the opponent from dropping down to a deeper stance while moving off-line and punching to the face (from their lowered position). Or slipping and going for an uppercut?
I don't think your uppercut can reach to your opponent's head when he fully extends his both arms.

The purpose of your rhino guard is to drill a hole between your opponent's arms. When your opponent moves his arms, your rhino guard move with him.

The rhino guard can be used to achieve many goals:

1. Protect your head to the maximum.
2. Separate your opponent's arms away from his head.
3. Bait your opponent's kick (so you can catch his kicking leg).
4. Bait your opponent's arm contact (so you can wrap his arm).
5. ...

It's a good strategy to be used by a wrestler to deal with a boxer.

The Chinese zombie arms is similar strategy too.

Chinese_zombie_1.jpg
 
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Gerry Seymour

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I don't think your uppercut can reach to your opponent's head when he fully extends his both arms.

The purpose of your rhino guard is to drill a hole between your opponent's arms. When your opponent moves his arms, your rhino guard move with him.

The rhino guard can be used to achieve many goals:

1. Protect your head to the maximum.
2. Separate your opponent's arms away from his head.
3. Bait your opponent's kick (so you can catch his kicking leg).
4. Bait your opponent's arm contact (so you can wrap his arm).
5. ...

It's a good strategy to be used by a wrestler to deal with a boxer.

The Chinese zombie arms is similar strategy too.

View attachment 27196
A push-block would keep the rhino guard from following while you slip it. Once you've slipped it, the uppercut can reach. Mind you, someone better than me at slipping can likely slip it without needing the push-block.
 

Bobbycat

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First unexpected strike is most dangerous. I always keep my right hand near my stomach, put the left elbow in the right palm, and touch the chin by my left fingers. This pose is like I think about something, but factually I am in the perfect defensive position. A couple of times it helped me in my life.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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A push-block would keep the rhino guard from following while you slip it. Once you've slipped it, the uppercut can reach. Mind you, someone better than me at slipping can likely slip it without needing the push-block.
When your arm make contact on a rhino guard, that rhino guard will change into octopus arms and try to wrap your arms. So the rhino guard and octopus arms are usually integrated.

We are talking about the missing link between the striking art and the grappling art. IMO, both "rhino guard" and "octopus arms" can fill into that missing area.
 

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