Who's Made It Through The Dragon Years?
- Thread starter John Galt
- Start date
It's essentially training the way soke Hatsumi did 30-40 years ago, they didn't practice soft. They may learn the technique slowly, but they would perfect it by doing it to their full potential. Where the current soft training is more "would you please sit down/roll over", this was just "you will...", because there was so much pain.
Besides this, there was actually some sparring between students and between the teacher and the students. My teacher's son told me that his father will hit you very hard on the kyusho on the radial side of the elbow so that you're arm is useless. Than he will say "now the fight begins," and you'll just be staring at his fist. They also say that training this way results in nerve damage that goes beyond 'happy pain'. People training in the dragon years will feel pain in their major nerves for several months at a time while they wait for the nerve to heal completely.
He tells me that you will learn quite a bit faster, but you have to be able to live with the pain for a long time. So because of this, I am spending a fair bit of time conditioning my body to accept pain. I want to spend as increase my pain tolerance dramatically so that I can train as much as I possibly can in this harder style.
Besides this, there was actually some sparring between students and between the teacher and the students. My teacher's son told me that his father will hit you very hard on the kyusho on the radial side of the elbow so that you're arm is useless. Than he will say "now the fight begins," and you'll just be staring at his fist. They also say that training this way results in nerve damage that goes beyond 'happy pain'. People training in the dragon years will feel pain in their major nerves for several months at a time while they wait for the nerve to heal completely.
He tells me that you will learn quite a bit faster, but you have to be able to live with the pain for a long time. So because of this, I am spending a fair bit of time conditioning my body to accept pain. I want to spend as increase my pain tolerance dramatically so that I can train as much as I possibly can in this harder style.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi John,
I've never heard the term "the Dragon Years" either... are you with John Willson (as per your first posts here)?
Hatsumi certainly taught and trained in a much harder fashion earlier on in his career, and that included a higher focus on body conditioning (junan taiso and atemi tanren), and the sparring was more in the vein of Japanese randori (free training). Certain schools still do this kind of thing, but Hatsumi has altered his approach as he has matured (and grown older), and as the art has spread beyond a dozen and a half individuals in a back room in Noda.
What I mean by matured, by the way, is that Hatsumi himself has said that in the early days he often went too far in his application of techniques, to the point of hurting his training partners and students, and as he improved his understanding, he developed much greater confidence and control in the art, and that lead to the "harder" aspects being more restrained. And the strike you seem to be refering to is a strike to Nagare, and I haven't heard of that effect coming from a strike there. You can certainly shock the arm, and cause the hand to open, but the more "take the arm out" point is Jakkin (between the bicep and tricep).
But basically, if you are being told that you are going to be taken through training that will cause you to be in pain for a long time, get out. No training should be detrimental to your health, and any instructor that is going to put you through something like that has no care for the students under them. I hit my students solidly when required to demonstrate proper targeting, and that can be very uncomfortable (they would probably say it hurts a lot), but there is never injury, and there is certainly never permanent lasting damage. I can get someone effective in a few months, and it'll be very hard training, and very intense, very scary, but they will not suffer any perament injury. If you are being told you will, get out.
I've never heard the term "the Dragon Years" either... are you with John Willson (as per your first posts here)?
Hatsumi certainly taught and trained in a much harder fashion earlier on in his career, and that included a higher focus on body conditioning (junan taiso and atemi tanren), and the sparring was more in the vein of Japanese randori (free training). Certain schools still do this kind of thing, but Hatsumi has altered his approach as he has matured (and grown older), and as the art has spread beyond a dozen and a half individuals in a back room in Noda.
What I mean by matured, by the way, is that Hatsumi himself has said that in the early days he often went too far in his application of techniques, to the point of hurting his training partners and students, and as he improved his understanding, he developed much greater confidence and control in the art, and that lead to the "harder" aspects being more restrained. And the strike you seem to be refering to is a strike to Nagare, and I haven't heard of that effect coming from a strike there. You can certainly shock the arm, and cause the hand to open, but the more "take the arm out" point is Jakkin (between the bicep and tricep).
But basically, if you are being told that you are going to be taken through training that will cause you to be in pain for a long time, get out. No training should be detrimental to your health, and any instructor that is going to put you through something like that has no care for the students under them. I hit my students solidly when required to demonstrate proper targeting, and that can be very uncomfortable (they would probably say it hurts a lot), but there is never injury, and there is certainly never permanent lasting damage. I can get someone effective in a few months, and it'll be very hard training, and very intense, very scary, but they will not suffer any perament injury. If you are being told you will, get out.
Kajowaraku
Green Belt
That point could also be Jyaku Kotsu (or Hoshi shita) from the sound of it. It would surely be able to take out an arm, although the effect would be more..erhm... damaging. Sensei once hit me on lower hoshi with the blunt end of a tanto. Not hard, just a pat. I can tell you the arm was quite debilitated for the next 5 minutes.
And back OT: why would you want to open yourself up to potentially dangerous training which might even lead to long term negative effects? Even Takamatsu sensei emphasised he might have overdone the conditioning of his hands a bit, since they gave him ltos of trouble when he was older. Same goes for months of repetitive blows to nerve points. You'll probably get a nasty tendinitis in the best case scenario, and find yourself unable to train. Train hard, control impact. That is not to say there can't be any impact, as chris pointed out it can be benificial to push students to the next level of commitment and force them to take over initiative or keep guard. Still, it should never be to the point where you risk injuring your students. If your teacher is really up for that, I'd start asking questions other than "how cool is that???". Still not not being able to open a can of soda months after sustaining the trauma to your nervepoints isn't cool. It's just pointless.
And back OT: why would you want to open yourself up to potentially dangerous training which might even lead to long term negative effects? Even Takamatsu sensei emphasised he might have overdone the conditioning of his hands a bit, since they gave him ltos of trouble when he was older. Same goes for months of repetitive blows to nerve points. You'll probably get a nasty tendinitis in the best case scenario, and find yourself unable to train. Train hard, control impact. That is not to say there can't be any impact, as chris pointed out it can be benificial to push students to the next level of commitment and force them to take over initiative or keep guard. Still, it should never be to the point where you risk injuring your students. If your teacher is really up for that, I'd start asking questions other than "how cool is that???". Still not not being able to open a can of soda months after sustaining the trauma to your nervepoints isn't cool. It's just pointless.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Jyaku Kotsu (Hoshi Shita) is an alternate name for Jakkin, so I think we're on the same page there. Charles Daniel once demonstrated (at a series of classes here in Australia) striking to that point... very hard. He managed to knock out the leg on that side as well as the arm.
I've been hit in points which left me sore for quite a while, including being kicked in ways that have had me limping for a week or two afterwards, so I'm all for hard training. But yeah, I was thinking about the Takamatsu quotes as well.
I've been hit in points which left me sore for quite a while, including being kicked in ways that have had me limping for a week or two afterwards, so I'm all for hard training. But yeah, I was thinking about the Takamatsu quotes as well.
I am with John Wilson and as pertaining to my last thread that started, I like him and his teaching quite a bit. He's not saying that we will be training like this. In fact, he doesn't want to train us like that. He's very tentative to teach this way because he knows that very few can live with the pain and he is afraid I will quit. That is why I am conditioning myself before hand. I want to train like this, because I have only little time before I am going to university, and I want to learn as much as I can.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi John,
While it is good that you enjoy your training, I believe you should know that I have never come across the term "Dragon Years" related to Ninjutsu, Hatsumi, or anything else for that matter before you started this thread (and a quick google search reveals this thread as the only mention of it at all). Add to that a look to John Willson's site and a fair amount of terms and names misused, and I would start to have my doubts.
My point here is not to belittle your instructor. I think that if you enjoy the classes, and get something out of them, that trumps pretty much everything else. But realise that there seem to be a fair amount of things you are being taught which will set of red flags for most ninjutsu practitioners.
But really, if John doesn't want to teach you in this manner (which honestly seems to be a creation of his, along with Combat Ki and Shizenden Ryu), you have recieved advise that this sounds like rather detrimental training to say the least, and you have been training for less than 2 months (by the date of your initial posts), why are you interested in it? If you are wanting to rush through your training, you will never develop real skill, these arts take years to learn. You're heading off to University soon, so you're still very young. You have time! Don't be in such a rush! And besides, the type of training you are describing won't teach you any faster, particularly as you're so new to this, it'll just hurt more.
While it is good that you enjoy your training, I believe you should know that I have never come across the term "Dragon Years" related to Ninjutsu, Hatsumi, or anything else for that matter before you started this thread (and a quick google search reveals this thread as the only mention of it at all). Add to that a look to John Willson's site and a fair amount of terms and names misused, and I would start to have my doubts.
My point here is not to belittle your instructor. I think that if you enjoy the classes, and get something out of them, that trumps pretty much everything else. But realise that there seem to be a fair amount of things you are being taught which will set of red flags for most ninjutsu practitioners.
But really, if John doesn't want to teach you in this manner (which honestly seems to be a creation of his, along with Combat Ki and Shizenden Ryu), you have recieved advise that this sounds like rather detrimental training to say the least, and you have been training for less than 2 months (by the date of your initial posts), why are you interested in it? If you are wanting to rush through your training, you will never develop real skill, these arts take years to learn. You're heading off to University soon, so you're still very young. You have time! Don't be in such a rush! And besides, the type of training you are describing won't teach you any faster, particularly as you're so new to this, it'll just hurt more.
Kajowaraku
Green Belt
(sorry for going slightly of topic here)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Jakkin the point at the inside of the biceps? Both hoshi as Jakkin are prime targets for ken kudaki, and both are on distinctly different places of the arm. I do fully agree that Jakkin is more than able to distill a sense of (almost nausiating) pain and numbness if struck correctly, while Hoshi will probably be a more bony pain. Not nice either. Nagare would be located at the lower arm, and as you said; wouldn't do much more than open the hand, cause some pain and perhaps tingling. (I've never tried hitting it by using combat ki however.)
At least this is how I have learned these points. If we differ it would be interesting to find how and why.
back OT:
I wish you the best of luck on your martial arts journey, but Chris is right. You can't speed maturing in the art simply by receiving more punishment. If only it were that easy. In fact, I think such training can only be useful after you've matured sufficiently in your art. That means years of training until you really get the feel for your techniques.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Jakkin the point at the inside of the biceps? Both hoshi as Jakkin are prime targets for ken kudaki, and both are on distinctly different places of the arm. I do fully agree that Jakkin is more than able to distill a sense of (almost nausiating) pain and numbness if struck correctly, while Hoshi will probably be a more bony pain. Not nice either. Nagare would be located at the lower arm, and as you said; wouldn't do much more than open the hand, cause some pain and perhaps tingling. (I've never tried hitting it by using combat ki however.)
At least this is how I have learned these points. If we differ it would be interesting to find how and why.
back OT:
I wish you the best of luck on your martial arts journey, but Chris is right. You can't speed maturing in the art simply by receiving more punishment. If only it were that easy. In fact, I think such training can only be useful after you've matured sufficiently in your art. That means years of training until you really get the feel for your techniques.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
The names we use are as follows:
Jakkin - between the bicep and tricep
Hoshi - Armpit
Hoshi Sawa - The elbow, specifically the Humerus.
I have, however, seen the term "Jyaku Kotsu" or "Hoshi Shita" being used for Jakkin, usually a little further toward the elbow joint, and the term Jakkin used for directly on top of the bicep. Different schools use different terms for the same point, and some use the same name for different points... one way to keep their technology secret, I suppose!
Jakkin - between the bicep and tricep
Hoshi - Armpit
Hoshi Sawa - The elbow, specifically the Humerus.
I have, however, seen the term "Jyaku Kotsu" or "Hoshi Shita" being used for Jakkin, usually a little further toward the elbow joint, and the term Jakkin used for directly on top of the bicep. Different schools use different terms for the same point, and some use the same name for different points... one way to keep their technology secret, I suppose!
Kajowaraku
Green Belt
You're right about the different schools. The names you list are all koto ryu I believe. For example, we use waki or wakitsubo for the armpit. While in koto ryu wakitsubo is located at the base of the tumb if i'm correct. Didn't these ancient martial masters know that would cause such upheaval on internet fora
! Once again, thanks for the enlightening exchange Chris.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Yeah, it all depends on if you're looking at the Koto lists or the Takagi lists (those being the most prominent in the X-Kan traditions), but both the thumb and armpit kinda make sense when you look at "waki" meaning "side", or look at what is exposed and protected in Bikenjutsu Waki no Kamae... this does get confusing, doesn't it?
Kajowaraku
Green Belt
Well, strangely enough it actually starts to make more and more sense .
ergo: this has been a good discussion.
.ergo: this has been a good discussion.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
A good debate, indeed... but I think we've hijacked this thread for a bit too long now, right?
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Well, I've seen my sensei being hit on the elbow with the back side of a tanto 
and the effect was quite profound. In fact, for such a light little tap, the effects were nothing short of downright frightening.
Repeated impact right on the nerves causes nerve damage aka lots of pain. Sometimes pain is good, but just causing pain for the sake of pain, in a way that causes life long nerve damage is beyond pointless. And it won't make you learn any faster.
I've also trained in modern JJ, and at the time I quit, I had been practising wrist locks almost exclusively for several months, in a very hard way. As a result, my joints were chronically inflamed, and this lasted until almost half a year after I quit.
In my dojo we train fairly hard (depending on whom you're paired with) and sometimes we apply locks with enough pressure to go down hard (again, depending on whom you're paired with) but most of the time we stop at the point where it hurts, but not so much that there is the risk of damage. That would be pointless. If the flow and technique are right, then causing damage is a matter of pressure and speed.
As to the takamatsu story, he is said to have said that Hatsumi sensei should not harden his fingers by ramming them repeatedly in a bucket with pebbles, lke he (Takamatsu sensei) did when he was young. The reasons were that at the end he had arthritis in his fingers, and he needed a pair of pliers to cut his fingernails which were almost 5 mm thick.
In the olden days, this problem was less important because people didn't live that long, and tough hands mattered in combat. Even Takamatsu sensei recognized that the benefits no longer outweighed the problems.
And in my biography of Fujita Seiko, it is said that he said something similar about Koga ryu, and his reasons for not passing on what he'd learned from his grandfather.
and the effect was quite profound. In fact, for such a light little tap, the effects were nothing short of downright frightening.Repeated impact right on the nerves causes nerve damage aka lots of pain. Sometimes pain is good, but just causing pain for the sake of pain, in a way that causes life long nerve damage is beyond pointless. And it won't make you learn any faster.
I've also trained in modern JJ, and at the time I quit, I had been practising wrist locks almost exclusively for several months, in a very hard way. As a result, my joints were chronically inflamed, and this lasted until almost half a year after I quit.
In my dojo we train fairly hard (depending on whom you're paired with) and sometimes we apply locks with enough pressure to go down hard (again, depending on whom you're paired with) but most of the time we stop at the point where it hurts, but not so much that there is the risk of damage. That would be pointless. If the flow and technique are right, then causing damage is a matter of pressure and speed.
As to the takamatsu story, he is said to have said that Hatsumi sensei should not harden his fingers by ramming them repeatedly in a bucket with pebbles, lke he (Takamatsu sensei) did when he was young. The reasons were that at the end he had arthritis in his fingers, and he needed a pair of pliers to cut his fingernails which were almost 5 mm thick.
In the olden days, this problem was less important because people didn't live that long, and tough hands mattered in combat. Even Takamatsu sensei recognized that the benefits no longer outweighed the problems.
And in my biography of Fujita Seiko, it is said that he said something similar about Koga ryu, and his reasons for not passing on what he'd learned from his grandfather.
Gary Arthur
White Belt
When I heard the term "Going through the dragon years" I thought he was talking about marriage.
Garth
Garth
To clearify,
Shizenden ryu is a "creation" of my teacher*, but combat ki is not, and he never claimed that, he simply learned it from Schronowski(I don't know how to spell that). Also, there are several pictures of him with Hatsumi and Ishizuka in his dojo some new, some quite old. He also has a couple paintings given to him by Hatsumi and he also has certificates of his progression in all of the styles he's trained in.
Also, the Dragon Years was more a name given to the years when Hatsumi and his students actually trained this way. He just called the hard training this because it is similar to the training done in the "dragon years", before Bujinkan became much softer, focusing on sensitivity.
*Shizenden ryu was not "created" by Wilson, it is simply based on his observations of Hatsumi and the other older practitioners of Bujinkan Taijutsu. They are things that are not explicitly taught, simple things that most would over look because they are so subtle. It's not a style, but a set of principles that improve any style.
One of the students in my class is in an amature MMA league and he says that since learning only a few of the techniques from shizenden ryu, he's gone from being thinking "oh ****, I'm screwed" while on the ground to being more comfortable on the ground than standing. But that's besides the point.
I'd say this thread is probably done, seems unlikely that anyone has done this harder training. You can keep talking about kyusho if you want.
Shizenden ryu is a "creation" of my teacher*, but combat ki is not, and he never claimed that, he simply learned it from Schronowski(I don't know how to spell that). Also, there are several pictures of him with Hatsumi and Ishizuka in his dojo some new, some quite old. He also has a couple paintings given to him by Hatsumi and he also has certificates of his progression in all of the styles he's trained in.
Also, the Dragon Years was more a name given to the years when Hatsumi and his students actually trained this way. He just called the hard training this because it is similar to the training done in the "dragon years", before Bujinkan became much softer, focusing on sensitivity.
*Shizenden ryu was not "created" by Wilson, it is simply based on his observations of Hatsumi and the other older practitioners of Bujinkan Taijutsu. They are things that are not explicitly taught, simple things that most would over look because they are so subtle. It's not a style, but a set of principles that improve any style.
One of the students in my class is in an amature MMA league and he says that since learning only a few of the techniques from shizenden ryu, he's gone from being thinking "oh ****, I'm screwed" while on the ground to being more comfortable on the ground than standing. But that's besides the point.
I'd say this thread is probably done, seems unlikely that anyone has done this harder training. You can keep talking about kyusho if you want.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi John,
I would say that no-one has gone through the training the way you are describing, including Hatsumi, as no decent teacher would teach that way. So that could explain why the thread went the way it did. But if you are asking if anyone here has done hard training, then yes, absolutely.
However, your first post was:
"From what I've heard, the Dragon Years are ridiculously hardcore and painful. My understanding is that the majority don't make it past the first day.
Has anyone on here made it more than six months in the Dragon Years training? "
which to me is phrased as asking about a particular training practice itself, such as Iron Palm training, and Dragon Years is not a term known in Ninjutsu circles. If John Willson is using it, then the only people who could have done it are his students, no other Ninjutsu practitioner would have heard of it at all. But I would say that wouldn't surprise me, as the name is fairly badly chosen from a Japanese perspective.
No-one is debating Johns training in the Bujinkan, however, he does seem to have some odd idea, and a few things that stand out (incorrect terms being used, for one). As to Shizenden Ryu, from his website: Shizenden Ryu is a set of effective and efficient Martial Art movements and exercises deeply rooted in the ancient ninjutsu schools of Japan. Developed by Shihan John Willson...
so I feel that the distinction between "created" and "developed" is not very great here. If it is not a new system, it simply shouldn't have the title Ryu, if it is just a different approach to the same Ryu, it should be titled Shizenden Dojo. It's these little things that leap out when I see them.
Oh, and I may urge you to remember that you are still (incredibly) new to all of this, my friend. I seem to remember that it was just 2 months ago you were asking about John as your "potential instructor", and didn't exactly get glowing reviews. Again, if you are enjoying the classes, that is great. But don't get too upset if not everyone is thinking the same.
I would say that no-one has gone through the training the way you are describing, including Hatsumi, as no decent teacher would teach that way. So that could explain why the thread went the way it did. But if you are asking if anyone here has done hard training, then yes, absolutely.
However, your first post was:
"From what I've heard, the Dragon Years are ridiculously hardcore and painful. My understanding is that the majority don't make it past the first day.
Has anyone on here made it more than six months in the Dragon Years training? "
which to me is phrased as asking about a particular training practice itself, such as Iron Palm training, and Dragon Years is not a term known in Ninjutsu circles. If John Willson is using it, then the only people who could have done it are his students, no other Ninjutsu practitioner would have heard of it at all. But I would say that wouldn't surprise me, as the name is fairly badly chosen from a Japanese perspective.
No-one is debating Johns training in the Bujinkan, however, he does seem to have some odd idea, and a few things that stand out (incorrect terms being used, for one). As to Shizenden Ryu, from his website: Shizenden Ryu is a set of effective and efficient Martial Art movements and exercises deeply rooted in the ancient ninjutsu schools of Japan. Developed by Shihan John Willson...
so I feel that the distinction between "created" and "developed" is not very great here. If it is not a new system, it simply shouldn't have the title Ryu, if it is just a different approach to the same Ryu, it should be titled Shizenden Dojo. It's these little things that leap out when I see them.
Oh, and I may urge you to remember that you are still (incredibly) new to all of this, my friend. I seem to remember that it was just 2 months ago you were asking about John as your "potential instructor", and didn't exactly get glowing reviews. Again, if you are enjoying the classes, that is great. But don't get too upset if not everyone is thinking the same.
dbell
Blue Belt
Oh, some of us have trained pretty hard, and "in the old way", but in 99% of the case today, that level of training is no longer required or prudent.
It is important to train progressively harder as you go along your training path, but never to that level. After the first few testings (or equivalent if you don't have belt test) the uki should start "fighting back" a bit, and you can put a little more pressure on holds, etc.
Heavy training is important but not to the level of your "Dragon Years" (which I too thought dealt with marriage when I saw the title).
