Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts

[Sammy Naur]

Sure it does and I never claimed otherwise, I just claimed that practicing techniques in the water can make you slower not faster at those techniques for the reasons explained above.

I think this claim that keeps being posted needs some actual evidence behind it. So far only a couple people here seem to believe it.

Training in water makes you faster in water, and more poweful. Swimming.

So it stands training in water would naturally make you faster in air. And not just faster, but more powerful.

There are so many resistance exercises that professional fighters use, from bands to sleds to ropes to bags.

None of that makes anyone slower. So let's see some solid empirical evidence that it does. Ancient kung fu philosophy is not enough.

 

[Buka]

I’ve noticed that when good athletes join a Martial Arts dojo (striking arts) they progress quicker than other beginners who join at the same general time. Because the athletes are usually in far better physical shape.

But that changes, at least in my experience. Once people catch up to the athlete, the athlete usually loses patience and quits.

The other thing that makes them quit early (again, in my experience) is they can’t figure out why students in the school, that sure don’t look like athletes, can kick their ash.

As for swimmers and dancers. In their first six months of training, you can tell if they have a background in either by the way they kick.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Then explain competitive swimming.

This is the party about the "training in water makes you slower" claim that doesn't jive with basic physics.

The idea that in martial arts that you're not going to meet resistance is suspect. The reality is that water just happens to provide much better resistance than air. Practicing in water makes you stronger, and hits 100% of muscle groups.

If water is "detrimental" to maximum speed, then all resistance training should be bad, but that contradicts reality across all physical exercises, including sports and martial arts.

Havent you ever wrestled in the water, or even sand? It makes things harder, and if makes it harder, it stands that if you do it a lot, wrestling standard becomes easier. Which is why coaches often use water training in martial arts, but also football, rugby, lacrosse...

I was a competitive swimmer for nine years and I never said competitive swimming will make you slower in the martial arts, just that doing a specific technique in the water will make that technique slower because you will get used to throwing it slower. For instance, if you practice a front kick in the water you will be throwing it at a slower speed because of water resistance and as such your brain will become programmed to throw it at that slower speed even when you're not throwing it in the water, that's why I stopped practicing techniques in the water.

 

[Badhabits]

This is interesting. I think Photonguy hit the target when he said "your brain will become programmed". I've been practicing in water since I was little (not for any great reason, just because we always had water around, my father did it and it's fun). I think if it makes you slower it's a brain not body problem. My experience has not been that it made my punches slower. Cant say it's made them any faster, but if you're focusing on straightening the elbow as quickly as possible you shouldn't be getting so lax that punches in air become slower. That would almost have to be due to lax training from a mental standpoint, not physical. If you're mentally focused on speed it shouldn't matter

 

[windwalker099]

Question:

Rocky Marciano used water as part of his boxing training, why don't modern boxers do the same?"


Response from ChatGPT :

Water training is great, but limited
Water provides resistance, but:

It slows down the movement — good for building muscle control but not ideal for speed or form refinement.
You can’t replicate real punching mechanics under water as precisely.
It’s great for rehab or general conditioning, but not for sharpening timing, reflexes, or combos.

So it’s a supplemental tool, not a core part of modern training.

Marciano was also just built different
He had a famously rugged, intense, old-school approach. His water training was one piece of a brutal regimen — chopping wood, running hills, hitting homemade heavy bags, etc. It was more about grit and resistance than scientific precision.

Bottom line:
Modern boxers don’t rely on water training as much because they have more targeted, efficient tools, but the principle of using resistance and unusual environments for conditioning still lives on — just in different forms.

 

[Buka]

Question:

Rocky Marciano used water as part of his boxing training, why don't modern boxers do the same?"


Response from ChatGPT :

Water training is great, but limited
Water provides resistance, but:

It slows down the movement — good for building muscle control but not ideal for speed or form refinement.
You can’t replicate real punching mechanics under water as precisely.
It’s great for rehab or general conditioning, but not for sharpening timing, reflexes, or combos.

So it’s a supplemental tool, not a core part of modern training.

Marciano was also just built different
He had a famously rugged, intense, old-school approach. His water training was one piece of a brutal regimen — chopping wood, running hills, hitting homemade heavy bags, etc. It was more about grit and resistance than scientific precision.

Bottom line:
Modern boxers don’t rely on water training as much because they have more targeted, efficient tools, but the principle of using resistance and unusual environments for conditioning still lives on — just in different forms.

We grew up near Rocky. Every kid I knew, as well as all of our parents, met him a lot of times, he was very approachable.

He appeared locally everywhere when he retired from fighting. He was great with kids, great with older people. Just an all around gentleman and good guy.

Loved that video you posted. He was one hell of a great champion.

 

[Badhabits]

First swim of the year this evening. Cool and refreshing. Feels good to get the weight off the old joints for awhile. Therapeutic. Play fought with the granddaughter for awhile. Love the water.

 

[Sammy Naur]

I was a competitive swimmer for nine years and I never said competitive swimming will make you slower in the martial arts, just that doing a specific technique in the water will make that technique slower because you will get used to throwing it slower. For instance, if you practice a front kick in the water you will be throwing it at a slower speed because of water resistance and as such your brain will become programmed to throw it at that slower speed even when you're not throwing it in the water, that's why I stopped practicing techniques in the water.

There is a lot you're claiming here that still doesn't match with either physics or neurology. I'm not trying to berate you, but just point out the fallacies.

"doing a specific technique in the water will make that technique slower because you get used to throwing it slower".

According to who? Not according to weight resistance training of any type in exercise science that I'm aware of. Training against resistance never makes you slower. In fact, one look at surfers should show you training in water makes them not only stronger, but faster than most "martial arts" types.

", if you practice a front kick in the water you will be throwing it at a slower speed because of water resistance and as such your brain will become programmed to throw it at that slower speed even when you're not throwing"

It will be at a marginally slower speed because of resistance in the water, but that has no bearing on when you're out of the water. Not to mention, anybody training front kicks in the water, are probably also training them outside of it.

What's your source for this "brain programming" thing? That just sounds like more of an unsupported opinion. I'd like to see some actual evidence.

Like I've said a few times, the whole "training with resistance/weights makes you slower" trope, which also conflicts with mainstream exercise science, appears to come from a lot of literally weak martial artists who think they're fast.

 

[Sammy Naur]

This is interesting. I think Photonguy hit the target when he said "your brain will become programmed". I've been practicing in water since I was little (not for any great reason, just because we always had water around, my father did it and it's fun). I think if it makes you slower it's a brain not body problem. My experience has not been that it made my punches slower. Cant say it's made them any faster, but if you're focusing on straightening the elbow as quickly as possible you shouldn't be getting so lax that punches in air become slower. That would almost have to be due to lax training from a mental standpoint, not physical. If you're mentally focused on speed it shouldn't matter

I think that statement was proof that it's an opinion, because there is literally no exercise or medical science out there that suggests using resistance slows anyone down.

I'd love to see some, then we could discuss it.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Question:

Rocky Marciano used water as part of his boxing training, why don't modern boxers do the same?"

Response from ChatGPT :

ChatGPT produces all sorts of mistakes, and most of that thing you posted is clearly wrong. Worse, it seems to support your confirmation bias, which suggests to me it's part of the reason you have the opinion you keep pushing.

Question for you (assuming you are human): why are surfers more physically fast, strong, and graceful than most people alive?

Answer, without needing AI: they train against waves.

So, if your (AI based) premise is true, surfers should be slow.

I humbly request you leave AI out of our conversations, or I will start running your posts through ZeroGTP and post the results. I've already done for this a few of yours in particularly, so I'm not afraid to make it public.

 

[windwalker099]

Question for you (assuming you are human): why are surfers more physically fast, strong, and graceful than most people alive?So,

Can you name a surfer who’s known for fighting and actually claims that surfing makes them faster or stronger?
Saying surfers are more graceful than most people. For what ?

Are you a surfer?

if your (AI based) premise is true, surfers should be slow.

To be clear, I use ChatGPT, among other AI tools, to help with editing, not to speak for me.

At times, its responses to direct questions are interesting.
If something it says is interesting, I might post it making it known that it is from "AI" thinking others might find it interesting too.

I remember seeing old clips of Ali punching in water long ago.
Hadn’t realized Marciano, also used water resistance as part of his training.

In the practice of Taiji, movement is sometimes described as being “like moving in water.”
That’s not to say it is the same as water, or that this is why some people describe their practice that way .
For some the comparison might be useful,,,for others it can lead to mistaken ideas on practice.

 

[Badhabits]

I think that statement was proof that it's an opinion, because there is literally no exercise or medical science out there that suggests using resistance slows anyone down.

I'd love to see some, then we could discuss it.

So you don't think a person could sort of accidentally make a habit out of punching or kicking more slowly?

 

[Sammy Naur]

Can you name a surfer who’s known for fighting and actually claims that surfing makes them faster or stronger?
Saying surfers are more graceful than most people. For what ?

That's avoiding the question, by asking a new question.

Surfers are more athletic and graceful than most people. I don't have to defend that. Many surfers can probably hand your butt to the average person. As could many football players, soccer players, lacrosse players, competitive swimmers...that's the root of this thread, right?

Are you a surfer?

A terrible one, but I know the culture which is also how I know they would lay more "martial artists" down quickly, unless those martial arts people were better trained than the typical.

We're still at: training in water does not make anyone slower.

I used surfing as an obvious counterexample to that, quite frankly, fringe idea.

To be clear, I use ChatGPT, among other AI tools, to help with editing, not to speak for me.

You definitely used ChatGPT to "speak for you", because you posted that response before about water training and Rocky Marciano, and when I went and checked, it wasn't true.

You didn't use it to "help with editing", you used it to back up your confirmation bias about "water training making people slower".

I remember seeing old clips of Ali punching in water long ago.
Hadn’t realized Marciano, also used water resistance as part of his training.

Water resistance training is part of a thousand different athletic training regimens.

In contrast to your AI response, there's no practical evidence it slowed anyone down. No athlete or combat sports individual in the history of mankind.

In the practice of Taiji, movement is sometimes described as being “like moving in water.”
That’s not to say it is the same as water, or that this is why some people describe their practice that way .
For some the comparison might be useful,,,for others it can lead to mistaken ideas on practice.

And maybe that's why there is practically no representation from the "Tai Chi" "moving in water" crowd, because their practice ideas are mistakes. They honestly believe moving in air, with perfect form, is somehow a substitute for contact with something solid (or at least in the case of water, fluid).

Keep in mind, that's not a dig on Tai Chi in general, I think Tai Chi is neat. It's just a personal observation that without resistance, weight, contact training etc, Tai Chi artists tend to show up as poor examples of martial artists.

 

[Sammy Naur]

So you don't think a person could sort of accidentally make a habit out of punching or kicking more slowly?

I think it happens all the time, especially with martial arts people who don't actually hit other people, or try kicking and punching underwater.

In all seriousness, your question is a called a "Strawman". You're doubling down on the whole "training in water trains your brain to punch or kick slower" ideal that isn't supported at all by exercise science.

This is kind of like @windwalker099 asking me if I surf, as a counter to my claim that surfers are faster, stronger, and more athletic than most people.

Most people will accept that as accurate because it's "prima facie". Some people will challenge it because they don't like the idea that somebody who can ride a sex waxed board over bodacious waves for hours, is easily able to handle most online "kung fu masters".

This topic's title is "Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts"

If your counterpoint is that training in water makes athletes slower...sorry, but so far the only evidence presented is some AI falsehood about Rocky Marciano.

 

[Same Trick]

And maybe that's why there is practically no representation from the "Tai Chi" "moving in water" crowd, because their practice ideas are mistakes. They honestly believe moving in air, with perfect form, is somehow a substitute for contact with something solid (or at least in the case of water, fluid).

Keep in mind, that's not a dig on Tai Chi in general, I think Tai Chi is neat. It's just a personal observation that without resistance, weight, contact training etc, Tai Chi artists tend to show up as poor examples of martial artists.

The Taiji “swimming in air” is a self-suggestion(not sure that’s the right word)/“imagination” of moving in water or liquid’ish matter, this kind of visualization/imagined method(and similar) is core for internal (martial)arts to apply as a training tool, it aims to directly work on the neural system rather than the muscles with aim on sharpening sensory, since there’s no actual water or other physical resistance one is allowed to relax muscles and thus eliminate the risk of muscle boundness, a state that often thwart sharpness of one’s senses

 

[Badhabits]

I think it happens all the time, especially with martial arts people who don't actually hit other people, or try kicking and punching underwater.

In all seriousness, your question is a called a "Strawman". You're doubling down on the whole "training in water trains your brain to punch or kick slower" ideal that isn't supported at all by exercise science.

This is kind of like @windwalker099 asking me if I surf, as a counter to my claim that surfers are faster, stronger, and more athletic than most people.

Most people will accept that as accurate because it's "prima facie". Some people will challenge it because they don't like the idea that somebody who can ride a sex waxed board over bodacious waves for hours, is easily able to handle most online "kung fu masters".

This topic's title is "Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts"

If your counterpoint is that training in water makes athletes slower...sorry, but so far the only evidence presented is some AI falsehood about Rocky Marciano.

Aw man I never said anywhere that training in water makes you slower. My previous posts argued against that idea. I train in water all the time and have been since I was a kid. What I said was that if training in water does make someone slower, the cause almost had to be mental rather than physical. Such as being lax in training and unintentionally making a habit out of being slow.
Sheesh.

 

[marvin8]

Question:

Rocky Marciano used water as part of his boxing training, why don't modern boxers do the same?"


Response from ChatGPT :

Water training is great, but limited
Water provides resistance, but:

It slows down the movement — good for building muscle control but not ideal for speed or form refinement.
You can’t replicate real punching mechanics under water as precisely.
It’s great for rehab or general conditioning, but not for sharpening timing, reflexes, or combos.

So it’s a supplemental tool, not a core part of modern training.

Marciano was also just built different
He had a famously rugged, intense, old-school approach. His water training was one piece of a brutal regimen — chopping wood, running hills, hitting homemade heavy bags, etc. It was more about grit and resistance than scientific precision.

Bottom line:
Modern boxers don’t rely on water training as much because they have more targeted, efficient tools, but the principle of using resistance and unusual environments for conditioning still lives on — just in different forms.

Ask AI a different question, get a different answer. AI seems to collect general info from the internet and give an answer that isn't always helpful.

Question: Studies show pool workouts develop speed power for boxing?

Yes, studies and sports science support the idea that pool workouts can be beneficial for developing speed and power in boxing. Here’s how aquatic training helps:

1. Resistance Training Without Impact

Water provides constant resistance in all directions, which helps build muscular power, especially in the upper body—key for punches—and lower body for movement and explosiveness. Unlike traditional weights, this resistance is joint-friendly, reducing injury risk.

2. Increased Speed Through Neuromuscular Training

Punching in water requires moving quickly against resistance. This improves neuromuscular efficiency, which translates to faster punch speed and quicker defensive movement on land once the resistance is removed (similar to overspeed training).

3. Explosiveness Through Plyometrics

Aquatic plyometrics (like jumping drills in shallow water) build leg power for better footwork and explosive movements like dodges or uppercuts, without the heavy strain on knees and ankles.

4. Improved Cardiovascular and Muscular Endurance

Pool workouts often push both the anaerobic and aerobic systems, critical for boxing. Shadowboxing, sprint intervals, or resistance drills in water can simulate rounds in the ring.

5. Active Recovery and Rehabilitation

Because it reduces impact, the pool is excellent for recovery days, allowing athletes to train speed and maintain power output without taxing the joints.

---

​

Example Pool Exercises for Boxers:

• Shadowboxing in chest-deep water
• Underwater sprints
• Tuck jumps or squat jumps
• Punch-outs with resistance gloves or aqua dumbbells
• High knees and lateral shuffles

 

[windwalker099]

Ask AI a different question, get a different answer. AI seems to collect general info from the internet and give an answer that isn't always helpful.

Agree

Like a super search engine..

Not really understanding the concern of using AI or the specific answer it gave.
Found the answer interesting, even if I didn’t agree with it, posted it thinking others might also find it interesting.

Changing the question changes the basic response.
I did, got the same responses still within the range of the original response.
All echoing what some have posted here.

Was trying to understand the rationale behind a type of training that others say they use, but which, based on my experience, didn’t intuitively make sense.

Surfing

Lived in Hawaii for a while, used to body surf at the North Shore,

you’ve got to respect the waves
One of my first Tai Chi teachers in Hawaii was also a surfer...

AI bottom line

Bottom line:
Modern boxers don’t rely on water training as much because they have more targeted, efficient tools, but the principle of using resistance and unusual environments for conditioning still lives on — just in different forms.

It seems to suggest that there are other tools available for boxers and athletes to train with other then just using the water method. Whether it's true for boxing or any other sport, leave it to others to decide...
For something like taiji IME it would not be.

 

[HighKick]

There is a lot you're claiming here that still doesn't match with either physics or neurology. I'm not trying to berate you, but just point out the fallacies.

"doing a specific technique in the water will make that technique slower because you get used to throwing it slower".

According to who? Not according to weight resistance training of any type in exercise science that I'm aware of. Training against resistance never makes you slower. In fact, one look at surfers should show you training in water makes them not only stronger, but faster than most "martial arts" types.

", if you practice a front kick in the water you will be throwing it at a slower speed because of water resistance and as such your brain will become programmed to throw it at that slower speed even when you're not throwing"

It will be at a marginally slower speed because of resistance in the water, but that has no bearing on when you're out of the water. Not to mention, anybody training front kicks in the water, are probably also training them outside of it.

What's your source for this "brain programming" thing? That just sounds like more of an unsupported opinion. I'd like to see some actual evidence.

Like I've said a few times, the whole "training with resistance/weights makes you slower" trope, which also conflicts with mainstream exercise science, appears to come from a lot of literally weak martial artists who think they're fast.

Fully agree. How would the previous post Not consider the effect of increased friction and change in relative gravity when in the water. The 'freedom' felt when kicking out of the water should be exponentially faster.