where does dragon-claw kung fu come from?

Brother John

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Yes...
a Dragon-Claw Kung-Fu Sifu !!!!!!!!


.....ahahahaha....
I was actually going to attempt to put something up here to answer your question, then I realized that the link that Mantis gave was Excellent....
so I kid...


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MJS

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Mod Note:

Thread moved to Southern Systems. It should generate more discussion here.

Mike Slosek
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Matthew Glover

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I hate that i'm just now responding to this thread, but I'm not sure that the replies so far actually answer the original question. The links posted seem to discuss dragon style, rather than dragon claw style, and I think there's an important distinction there. The dragon claw that I study, Lung Shou Pai, isn't a southern system at all. It's considered a northern longfist style. It's also pretty small, with only a few schools in Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee, and Florida.

Here's the history of our dragon claw style as we're taught it:
http://nexus.cybersomnia.com/scythe/blog/posts/226.aspx

I've also had some discussion with a guy in either Denmark or Britain (I don't recall which) who studies a dragon claw style that's completely different from our stuff. They call theirs Lung Jow Pai, and regretfully I don't remember any details of what he told me aside from having compared notes and come to the conclusion that his style seems to be unrelated to ours.
 

Jade Tigress

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I hate that i'm just now responding to this thread, but I'm not sure that the replies so far actually answer the original question. The links posted seem to discuss dragon style, rather than dragon claw style, and I think there's an important distinction there. The dragon claw that I study, Lung Shou Pai, isn't a southern system at all. It's considered a northern longfist style. It's also pretty small, with only a few schools in Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee, and Florida.

Here's the history of our dragon claw style as we're taught it:
http://nexus.cybersomnia.com/scythe/blog/posts/226.aspx

I've also had some discussion with a guy in either Denmark or Britain (I don't recall which) who studies a dragon claw style that's completely different from our stuff. They call theirs Lung Jow Pai, and regretfully I don't remember any details of what he told me aside from having compared notes and come to the conclusion that his style seems to be unrelated to ours.

Thanks for the info. :)
 

Longzhua

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Hi Matthew Glover,
I have studied the Dragon Style for a considerable amount of time and I know dragon claw as a technique. There is a Shaolin style named Dragon Claw which is from the northern temple but this is really one form, not so much a system.
I was interested to read the Lung Shou Pai website and would like to ask a few questions if I may.
1. I am originally from Canton and have never heard of the name “Klung” before, this is not a Chinese name to my knowledge and I would be interested to know which dialect it comes from.
2. The boxer rebellion began in 1899-1901, but in your history you state that one of your ancestors namely Ling Chang-wu moved his family to Canton because of the Boxer Rebellion in 1896, the boxer rebellion began in 1899?
3. In your website it is stated that Li Tan-foy is the brother of Li Nung-ti, to any Chinese reading that this is impossible, the generation names would be the same and they are not?
4 Are there any members of the direct family alive today and are they contactable?
I have more questions but I shall leave it there for now, I am just curious because I have never heard of Lung Shou Pai in Canton before. There is Dragon style in Canton but I have never heard of it called Lung Shou Pai, which translates as “Dragon Hand Sect”.
Also Lung Shou Pai is mandarin, in Canton the dialect is Cantonese.
I thankyou in advance for your time.

Thomas Loo
 

Matthew Glover

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Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your interest. As I said, this is the history of the style as we're taught it. I personally don't have the answers to any of these questions. I'm just a guy who studies at a school. I will, however, forward this link on to my instructor and hopefully he can clarify the details.

Matthew
 

Longzhua

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Hi Matthew,
Thankyou for your time, i appreciate your reply.

Thomas
 

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This may be unrelated, but a teacher of Hung Gar came into our school (a Wing Chun school) a while back and taught a demo class. He made a point of showing similarities in their Dragon Set with our main stance -- the feet are turned in, and much of the form he showed was standing in one place (much like our first form). Is this anything to do with the Dragon, or Dragon-claw forms which have been discussed here?

I find the roots of my form very interesting -- Wing Chun is relatively new and I love to see roots from older forms, though my own grasp of Chinese history is basically non-existent.
 

Longzhua

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Hi Barnaby,
I think you are talking about the Toisan dragon form. Some Hung Gar practitioners call the style Hasayfu which as five seperate forms for each animal, tiger, crane, leopard, snake and dragon. The stance that is used predominantly (sp) is 'yee jee kim yeung ma'. The name Hasayfu means 'four lower tigers and is said to originate from the four lower villages/districts of Toisan, Guangdong.
I know the style as Toisan Five Animals, the style itself is centered around the five elements and their repective energies.
I believe that Sifu Wing Lam of Hung Gar teaches the forms (i have never seen these sets, so please don't take my word for it), there are also a small five animal set and a big five animal set which is practiced in the style. I have met a sifu of this style and the energies really dominate the system.
The system itself is believed to originate from Sil-lum (shao-lin).
I hope this helps.

Thomas.
 

barnaby

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Yes, Thomas, that helps a lot. We use the same name for the stance, 'yee jee kim yeung ma." the lecturer (named Frank Rivera) did talk about the five forms you're referring to, said the dragon portion of that set is the last one.

I could swear I have seen our first form spelled like that -- Sil Lum Tao -- but is translated to us as meaning, "little idea form." any connection to the word Shaolin in your opinion? does Shaolin have a literal translation? perhaps the moderator will ask me to take this to another thread but since we're both paying attention to this one I'll take a chance --
thanks, Barnaby
 

Longzhua

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Hi Barnaby,
I had a look at the footage that i took of the system while i was visiting the school on my last trip home and yes the Dragon form is the last of the five animals, it is a very long form.
Yes it is the same stance ‘Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma’. The Sil Lum Tao (Cantonese) translates as ‘Little First Training’ also translated as ‘Little Idea or Notion’, and Sil Lum (Cantonese) translates as ‘Small Forest’, Shao-Lin is its mandarin pronunciation. The difference is in the written Chinese fonts.

Thomas
 

Matthew Glover

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Hi Matthew Glover,
I have studied the Dragon Style for a considerable amount of time and I know dragon claw as a technique. There is a Shaolin style named Dragon Claw which is from the northern temple but this is really one form, not so much a system.
I was interested to read the Lung Shou Pai website and would like to ask a few questions if I may.


I appreciate the opportunity to try to find answers to any questions that might come up about our style. If I don't already know it, it's a good excuse to buttonhole my instructor. :)

1. I am originally from Canton and have never heard of the name “Klung” before, this is not a Chinese name to my knowledge and I would be interested to know which dialect it comes from.
I wondered that myself. I don't have a ready answer, but it does seem like an odd name. My instructor forwarded this question on to his instructor, the head of our style and Ling Kat Klung's student. When I hear back, I'll be sure to let you know what he says.

2. The boxer rebellion began in 1899-1901, but in your history you state that one of your ancestors namely Ling Chang-wu moved his family to Canton because of the Boxer Rebellion in 1896, the boxer rebellion began in 1899?
I don't have anything to back this up, so this is pure conjecture on my part. The history says "[/SIZE][/FONT]In 1896, he moved his family to Canton, because he wanted [them] to be relatively safe from the turmoil of the Boxers Rebellion." My guess is that the increasing tension and hostilities in the region were a cause for concern for Ling Chang-wu. Feeling that it was no longer safe for his wife and young son, he moved them to Canton. His patriotism, however, drew him back into the fight.

3. In your website it is stated that Li Tan-foy is the brother of Li Nung-ti, to any Chinese reading that this is impossible, the generation names would be the same and they are not?

I believe this confusion is caused by terminology and translation. Again, this is my conjecture. Our history says, "
Grandmaster Li Nung-Ti had two disciples; they were his brothers Master Li Tan-Foy (1806-1875), and Master Ling Chang-Wu (1831-1901)." It also says, "Ling Chang-Wu was Grandmaster Li Nung-Ti and Master Li Tan-Foy's nephew, and was an inportant part in the development of Lung Shou Pai."

So if you read this literally, they were three brothers, but one was a nephew to the other two? That makes no sense at all unless "brother" is being used to mean "training brother." I believe that is how this was meant, intended to show that the relationship between Nung-Ti and his two students was brotherly rather than a strict teacher-student dynamic. The actual familial relationship was probably more complex.

4 Are there any members of the direct family alive today and are they contactable?

I honestly don't know. I know that Ling Kat Klung had two grandchildren who would be in their mid-sixties now. I have no idea where they might be, if they still practice Lung Shou Pai, if they had kids, or anything like that.
Hopefully, Sigung Norman Pedelahore will be able to answer this soon.

I have more questions but I shall leave it there for now, I am just curious because I have never heard of Lung Shou Pai in Canton before.


From what I've been told, Lung Shou Pai has always been a tiny, obscure family style. It doesn't have a particularly old history. Only four guys in China studied it. Li Nung-Ti created the foundations and taught it to Li Tan-Foy. Together they trained Ling Chang-Wu. Chang-Wu taught it to his son, Kat-Klung, who expanded and refined it a great deal before coming to America and passing it on to his own son, grandson, and granddaughter, as well as Sigung Norman, the first person outside of the family to learn it. Honestly I'd be amazed if you had heard of our stuff. That would almost certainly mean that there was some other student who's been left entirely out of our history. That would be pretty exciting for us, let me tell you.

There is Dragon style in Canton but I have never heard of it called Lung Shou Pai, which translates as “Dragon Hand Sect”.

Also Lung Shou Pai is mandarin, in Canton the dialect is Cantonese.

I thankyou in advance for your time.

Thomas Loo

On the issue of language, we're told that Ling Kat Klung had very little English, and Sigung Norman was a white kid from Louisiana who didn't speak Chinese (of any dialect) very well. Therefore much of the linguistic tradition has been lost, and has had to be reconstructed as best as we can manage. It's a little frustrating for us, but it's all we have. My math makes Ling Kat Klung 20 years old when they moved to Canton. And I can't say this with any certainty, but I think it's possible that he would've considered Mandarn to be his native dialect and more familiar than Cantonese, so that was probably why he used it.

We translate "Lung Shou Pai" as "Dragon Claw Family-style." Even now, with a handful of schools across the American southeast, we still consider ourselves a family style.


So there you go. If you're not yet sick of hearing about it, I'm happy to answer any further questions you might have to the best of my ability, and anything I can't answer I'll forward on to people who know more than I do. :)

Matthew
 

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It's not Mandarin either, but it could be a phonetic spelling done by a non-Chinese speaker. But I have never heard a Chinese name of Klung so I am not sure of that either. But not knowing where he is from or what dialect that is being used here, it could be Chinese just not Mandarin or Cantonese.

But Klung is mentioned in many places on the internet, just google it.
 

clfsean

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Only place I've heard Klung was on Star Trek... not in China.
 

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We have a dragon form as well as the fifth form taught-- Ling Sing Toi. Similar to Southern Dragon I've seen out of Canton in many regards, but obviously the Indonesian exposure has changed it. An internal/external form with some very sophisticated movement if you know what to look for in the form.
 

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