When is enough enough?

[Brian S]

I agree with sitting down with your instructor and asking what you need to do to advance.

Maybe you should also discuss having a curriculum after shodan so others don't feel this way in the future.

 

[stickarts]

I did speak to one other nidan student already. He said he was unaware that I hadn't been promoted during this time, that he thought I certainly deserved to, but again, in the absence of a curriculum, he didn't have any specific recommendations.

See, my issue isn't so much about how long it takes to get to any particular rank--that's been discussed on MT many times, and it varies widely by style and dojo. Still, nidan is a low BB rank, and best I can tell 7+ years of consistent training is a long time between 1st-2nd degree. It's certainly possible to go from white belt to black belt in 7 years at our dojo. It isn't even specifically about the rank (though, again, I admit, my ego is bruised)

My issue is more about setting reasonably clear goals and standards, and then applying those standards equitably. Hey, if it took everyone 10-12 years, I wouldn't expect to accomplish it in 6, and I wouldn't care if Joe's dojo across town awarded it in 2. I see it this way: as an instructor I try to be clear about standards and expectations, give constructive criticism and reinforcement, and help the students along the path to their goals. It would be reasonable for a student at any skill level--even a PhD candidate--to want the same. I'm no longer certain that's been happening in my own training.

I'm also trying to come to my own sense of whether I'm growing as a martial artist, and what direction I need to take, much as Xue Sheng is doing. It's a personal thing, obviously, but I find the comments, suggestions and insights from you folks helpful.

I think it is important that even if there are no specific requirements, that it is communicated what the expectations are for your future progress. Something most successful people have in common is setting goals. Its hard to do that when you don't know what the expectations are or how to get there. I give you a lot of credit for persisting this long without being given clear direction. It sounds like its time to get that cleared up though.

 

[Makalakumu]

I want to chime in really fast, based on my experience as a teacher (not in martial arts), and my connected MA experience (though, I have yet to get my black belt in any art).

Speaking as an instructor, I hate it when everyone puts all the burden of learning on the teachers head. Every student has to take responsibility for their own learning, and IMO, far too many teachers are taking the blame for students who just don't do the work they have to to learn. Also, I have always looked at black belt level as the level where you should be taking the majority of the burden for improving yourself. Yes there are higher ranked people, and more experienced people who can help you, but it is your job to solicit that help. It sounds to me like you like being a beginner student, and want your sensei to hold your hand and walk you through things, but your just not at that level anymore.

My suggestion for anyone who finds themselves "stuck" because they know it all, is go back, and re-evaluate what you know. Start over with the basics and look smaller. Nobody does anything perfect, so there has to be a way to make everything you already know better. I teach swimming, and I have some of my better students who want to quit just because they know all their strokes. Just because they know it doesn't mean they can't make it better.

At this point it's up to you. If you feel you've gone far enough, and really aren't interested in making what you already know better, then do something else that will make you more happy. But don't use the excuse that your sensei didn't make you better. It's your job to make you better.

QFT

I see shodan as a journeyman in the trades. A person has learned enough to be proficient and now they are at the point where they can direct their own learning. BB level learning should be self directed and interally motivated. If you were at my school and you came to me, I would ask you what you were doing with your time? How have you taken what I've taught at developed it on your own.

To many people expect a checklist. Especially people who are highly educated and hold advanced degrees. Life, real life, and real learning is different. Perhaps you could put more effort into connecting the purpose of one class to another. Part of this could be your teacher's fault. Perhaps, there really are no objectives that drive the BB curriculum and its just a mish mash.

Or maybe you haven't stopped to figure it out. Maybe you need to stop training for a while and practice on your own. Think about what you know and try and divine some sort of direction.

Or maybe just talk to your teacher...

 

[MJS]

I did speak to one other nidan student already. He said he was unaware that I hadn't been promoted during this time, that he thought I certainly deserved to, but again, in the absence of a curriculum, he didn't have any specific recommendations.

See, my issue isn't so much about how long it takes to get to any particular rank--that's been discussed on MT many times, and it varies widely by style and dojo. Still, nidan is a low BB rank, and best I can tell 7+ years of consistent training is a long time between 1st-2nd degree. It's certainly possible to go from white belt to black belt in 7 years at our dojo. It isn't even specifically about the rank (though, again, I admit, my ego is bruised)

My issue is more about setting reasonably clear goals and standards, and then applying those standards equitably. Hey, if it took everyone 10-12 years, I wouldn't expect to accomplish it in 6, and I wouldn't care if Joe's dojo across town awarded it in 2. I see it this way: as an instructor I try to be clear about standards and expectations, give constructive criticism and reinforcement, and help the students along the path to their goals. It would be reasonable for a student at any skill level--even a PhD candidate--to want the same. I'm no longer certain that's been happening in my own training.

I'm also trying to come to my own sense of whether I'm growing as a martial artist, and what direction I need to take, much as Xue Sheng is doing. It's a personal thing, obviously, but I find the comments, suggestions and insights from you folks helpful.

Arts and whats required will vary from art to art. I used the art that I train (Kenpo) as an example. As far as techniques go, once you reach the upper levels, its pretty much refining, etc. I can't speak for you art though, as I'm not sure what you train in or how the system requirements go.

I still think that you should sit down, 1 on 1 with your teacher and discuss things.

 

[Phoenix44]

My suggestion for anyone who finds themselves "stuck" because they know it all...

If you feel you've gone far enough, and really aren't interested in making what you already know better, then do something else that will make you more happy. But don't use the excuse that your sensei didn't make you better.

Ybot, maybe my initial post wasn't clear--I didn't intend to give anyone the idea that I feel that I "know it all," that I'm not interested in improving what I do know, or that I "blame" my teachers. I certainly don't feel that way. I've been training a long time, and I continue to train, in class and independently, for the purpose of getting better. The conclusion that the other posters have been helping me arrive at is that it's time to have a level-headed talk with sensei to reassess my goals and direction with the guidance of those who have more experience than I do. And that's my plan.

Thanks to all of you who've given me the objective perspective I needed.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

I can't speak for everyone else, but I can very much relate to how you're feeling, from a slightly different perspective. I progressed incredibly quickly through my dojo and I'm very fortunate to have a natural knack for what I do. My problem came when I'd excelled past most of the other students in my dojo. The problem for me was that I was still hungrily baying for time and my instructors direct attention. I didn't understand it then, but I needed to slow down, I was fast going to burn myself out. Obviously I didn't see it and I felt headstrong and right at the time. Fortunately for me, my instructor carefully and subtly guided me to small units of discovery that kept me interested whilst allowing me to slow down and refine my technique. I've learned that getting Shodan is really nothing, it's the first step on the ladder and you're the only person that can climb it. You're instructor won't be able to inforce a strict student/teacher relationship anymore and so they'll let you grow at your own pace. Don't worry about the grade. Hell, what's a belt for? To keep your Gi tidy, hold your trousers up or keep your sword on your hip. Just ask questions, ask why and how as often as you can. Take in what you can without worrying about how many stripes you carry on your belt.

I can't really say fairer than that, and I don't know what the point I'm trying to make is, but there's some meaning there somewhere. Hope it helps.

 

[exile]

Phoenix, I've taught university for 35+ years, and during most of that time, most of my classes have been with graduate students. So it's always natural for me to relate what happens in MA instruction to what happens in undergraduate/graduate education, and it's true, there are some similarities. In both of them, the highest degree—BB and Ph.D. respectively—is widely accepted as being merely the starting point for really learning the length, breadth and depth of your craft. But there's a significant difference: doing a Ph.D. means that there's a small, specialized domain of your field that you know better than anyone else in the world—that's the idea, and it really does often work out like that. It's a very focused domain of expertise, but you own it (till the next graduate student takes the topic on five years or so down the line, from a different angle, and may well supersede your contribution, lol). But in the MAs, I don't think that's even remotely true. Even after your BB, you're still in school. Like the newly minted Ph.D. you now are, so to speak, licensed to freely explore your art from many points of view, but in the normal course of things there is no component of it that you know better than everyone else on the planet, and most definitely not your instructor. Even though you're equipped to explore the field, you still need a certain amount of guidance as to what you need to go on to do, and how to learn it. In an academic field, the doctorate means your coursework is over; but what happens in effect is that the whole field takes on the direction of your continuing education. You write papers for submission to important journals—at least if you're pursuing tenure in an academic career—and the referees for those journals give you feedback on what you've submitted. You send in abstracts to high-profile conferences and colloquia, and the same thing happens. You write up long, detailed applications for research funds from governement sponsoring agencies, and the advisory panel tells you what you need to do to sharpen your resubmission. Etc. None of that happens in the MAs; what happens instead is that your instructor continues to teach you, and help you in your increasingly independent development as an MAist. He or s/he continues in his or her previous role, even as you gradually increase the radius of your own, personally driven expansion of your MA skills.

That's why I think it's really critical that you talk to your instructor about this problem, because while it's true that the full responsibility can't be laid at the instructor's door for a Shodan's future progress, the instructor still plays an invaluable shaping role in that progress, and information is crucial to it. Obtaining the kind of information I was talking about in academic fields of study is easy (sometimes it feels all too easy, in a profession where everyone is an eager and sometimes harsh critic). In the MAs, it really hangs on your own teacher whether you get the feedback you need to help fuel that personal growth in the art, or not. You're independent, but you're also someone's student and protogé—that's the slightly paradoxical situation of the new black belt, as I picture it.

It's clear to me from your posts that rank isn't what's really on your mind, but your growth in the art and how to keep it going productively. It's absolutely essential that you approach your instructor with these concerns, I think.

 

[jks9199]

I think that Phoenix needs to speak to her instructor -- but not from a "why am I not advancing in rank" standpoint, but from the standpoint that she feels that her learning has stagnated. That, to me, is the problem -- not the rank. I don't think she'd be feeling the frustration with her rank if she felt she was still learning.

It may be something as simple as it slipped her instructor's mind. It may be that he's been waiting for her to ask. I know that sometimes, it's a matter of who is championing your cause... or simply leaving it in the ranking authority's hands.

 

[Phoenix44]

Well, I did talk to sensei, and here's the essence.

It was not an oversight, nor was he waiting for me to bring it up. In fact, as he put it, he was almost hoping I wouldn't bring it up because my issues bring up a whole bunch of similar issues involving the dojo on a broader scale, other black belt students, and the people who began training more recently than I.

Some of my own personal situation stems from an assumption...unjustified assumption...he had. Some of my situation was just fallout from stuff that has nothing to do with me. Plus, clearly things had settled into cycle of stagnation: no clearly articulated objectives resulting in lack of goal oriented behavior resulting in no clearly articulated objectives, and so on. He actually admitted that he, as my instructor, was wrong in not initiating the discussion with me years ago. But the upshot is that he is going to meet with me again to discuss a clearer set of objectives that we can both feel comfortable with. So there you have it. A good outcome, I think. As for the broader dojo implication, well, that'll have to be addressed on a systemic level...and probably soon.

So again, thanks. I don't think I could have presented my concerns as clearly and rationally as I did if I hadn't had your input.

 

[stickarts]

Well, I did talk to sensei, and here's the essence.

It was not an oversight, nor was he waiting for me to bring it up. In fact, as he put it, he was almost hoping I wouldn't bring it up because my issues bring up a whole bunch of similar issues involving the dojo on a broader scale, other black belt students, and the people who began training more recently than I.

Some of my own personal situation stems from an assumption...unjustified assumption...he had. Some of my situation was just fallout from stuff that has nothing to do with me. Plus, clearly things had settled into cycle of stagnation: no clearly articulated objectives resulting in lack of goal oriented behavior resulting in no clearly articulated objectives, and so on. He actually admitted that he, as my instructor, was wrong in not initiating the discussion with me years ago. But the upshot is that he is going to meet with me again to discuss a clearer set of objectives that we can both feel comfortable with. So there you have it. A good outcome, I think. As for the broader dojo implication, well, that'll have to be addressed on a systemic level...and probably soon.

So again, thanks. I don't think I could have presented my concerns as clearly and rationally as I did if I hadn't had your input.

I am glad that it worked out for you! I hope he does follow up by making a fair path of progression and communicating with you soon. Way to go!

 

[Kacey]

I am glad that it worked out for you! I hope he does follow up by making a fair path of progression and communicating with you soon. Way to go!

I agree - I'm glad we were able to help.

 

[Phoenix44]

As I see it, there's also a lesson in this for me as an instructor: Give constructive criticism where it's justified, credit where it's due, don't make unfounded assumptions, have high expectations and make them clear. Most people will rise to the occasion, given a chance.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Yeah! Kick *** and take names! Glad to see you've grown a bit as a Martial Artist. It's all part of the great spiral.

 

[Phoenix44]

Yeah! Kick *** and take names! Glad to see you've grown a bit as a Martial Artist. It's all part of the great spiral.

Yeah. Hope it's not a downward spiral!

 

[chinto]

I started thinking about this after reading Xue Sheng's "Hard Decision" thread. I'm hoping I can count on my colleagues at Martial Talk for some considered advice and ideas.

I've been training at the same dojo for many years. I took private lessons for most of those years, attended classes several times per week, attended seminars, trained hard, came up through the ranks, and I am an instructor with a regular assignment. I've had no extended absence.

Suffice it to say that this is no McDojo, sensei has decades of experience which he continues to expand, we have a long history, but there are relatively few black belts. We have formal rituals in class, but a warm atmosphere. We consider each other friends. Some of us train in other arts, with sensei's permission, and we bring our skills back to the dojo.

So here's the issue. The kyu level classes have a clear curriculum; dan level does not. And while I know I've improved over the years, recently I've felt a lack of "direction". All my colleagues who made shodan at the same time I did--and some who tested after me--have advanced to nidan. More than 7 years passed since I tested for shodan, and I have not advanced in rank. Without a clear curriculum, I can't guess what the issue is--certainly sensei hasn't told me what I'm doing wrong, or what I should be doing right. As far as asking about it, it feels a little unseemly, you know?

So what do you think? Is it time to reassess? Time to talk to sensei? (Let's acknowledge ego. Yes, I'm human, I admit my ego is bruised. I'm a grown-up, I know I can buy a black belt with two stripes). But why continue to invest my time and energy if I'm not "growing" as a martial artist in the eyes of my teachers? Why am I permitted to teach if I can't cut it myself--or am I just a warm body filling a time slot? As a student, is it reasonable for me to expect to advance my skills, and to receive feedback? I'm starting to think that the only reason I stay is because it's where my family and friends are--but it's just not the right reason for me--I expect to learn. Is it time to call it quits here, and, like Xue Sheng, concentrate elsewhere?

Thank you for your insights and comments.

I would say go back to your kata/forms and look for at least 5 techniques for each movement.. and get as many as you can in mind.. then well try them and perhaps start showing some of them to others... i think you will get promoted.. ( in the system I study you do not learn any more empty hand kata as you are tested on all the empty hand kata for shodan ho.... so then on up you work on all the kata you have learned and weapons . )

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Whether the spiral moves upwards or downwards isn't the point, the goal is to reach the ever fluid serenity at the eye.

 

[bowser666]

Have you ever thought that there might not be anymore that he can teach? Maybe he has plateaued as a Instructor. Which is not your fault or his fault for that matter. It could simply be that simple. He has nothing more to teach you. Perhaps it is time for you to move on and find another teacher that is more knowledgeable to expand your skills and understanding of your art. Just a thought.

 

[Phoenix44]

That's an interesting thought. Considering it, I'd have to say that's not the case. He's continued training with his various instructors his whole life, and he's still expanding his own already expansive knowledge base. I'm pretty sure I'd recognize by now the difference between "There's nothing more for me to get here," as opposed to "There's plenty more for me to get here, so why am I not getting it?"

Plus, it's not necessarily about new curriculum, per se. He can still teach me how to improve the timing and power of the roundhouse kick he taught me my second week of class!

Having talked to him, I think some of it's our own personal stuff (on both our parts), some of it is just "life getting in the way," some of it's just philosophical. Look, I don't need my hand held, but I do need occasional feedback and some sense of direction. Maybe that's just me. Other people are perfectly happy to just come down and train once in awhile, you know?