When is enough enough?

[Phoenix44]

I started thinking about this after reading Xue Sheng's "Hard Decision" thread. I'm hoping I can count on my colleagues at Martial Talk for some considered advice and ideas.

I've been training at the same dojo for many years. I took private lessons for most of those years, attended classes several times per week, attended seminars, trained hard, came up through the ranks, and I am an instructor with a regular assignment. I've had no extended absence.

Suffice it to say that this is no McDojo, sensei has decades of experience which he continues to expand, we have a long history, but there are relatively few black belts. We have formal rituals in class, but a warm atmosphere. We consider each other friends. Some of us train in other arts, with sensei's permission, and we bring our skills back to the dojo.

So here's the issue. The kyu level classes have a clear curriculum; dan level does not. And while I know I've improved over the years, recently I've felt a lack of "direction". All my colleagues who made shodan at the same time I did--and some who tested after me--have advanced to nidan. More than 7 years passed since I tested for shodan, and I have not advanced in rank. Without a clear curriculum, I can't guess what the issue is--certainly sensei hasn't told me what I'm doing wrong, or what I should be doing right. As far as asking about it, it feels a little unseemly, you know?

So what do you think? Is it time to reassess? Time to talk to sensei? (Let's acknowledge ego. Yes, I'm human, I admit my ego is bruised. I'm a grown-up, I know I can buy a black belt with two stripes). But why continue to invest my time and energy if I'm not "growing" as a martial artist in the eyes of my teachers? Why am I permitted to teach if I can't cut it myself--or am I just a warm body filling a time slot? As a student, is it reasonable for me to expect to advance my skills, and to receive feedback? I'm starting to think that the only reason I stay is because it's where my family and friends are--but it's just not the right reason for me--I expect to learn. Is it time to call it quits here, and, like Xue Sheng, concentrate elsewhere?

Thank you for your insights and comments.

 

[14 Kempo]

OK, it is customary to not ask for rank or advancement ... true. However it is OK to ask your teacher where he/she thinks you are and what it will take to get to the next level. Sit down, tell him/her that you feel as if you've hit a plateau and need his/her advice on how to get past it, how to attain the next level. It could be that you are teaching and therefore you are held to a higher standard than the average black belt. People are judged on an individual basis, indiviidual skills and capabilities, maybe it is just that you are looked at as having more potential. I could go on, but you need to get the answers from your teacher.

If you aren't satisfied with the response and conversation surrounding your questions, maybe it is time to think about moving on.

 

[kamishinkan]

Pretty interesting situation. Advice on this would be hard to give since a lot of factors would have to be assumed here. Assuming you are a great student/instructor and train hard, I would very respectfully ask your sensei what you need to improve on to be eligible for a test/review. Assuming you love your art and it does have requirements to continue your training (maybe you are not aware of advanced curriculum?). Coming from an instructors standpoint, loyalty means ALOT in an art, but there must be clear guidelines for the Dan students to follow. Ask some of the other Black Belts who have ranked, what was required of them for advancement. Maybe that would help?
I hope things work out for you.

Darrell Collins
Nippon Kobudo Rengokai

 

[bowser666]

I agree, ask your sensei where you training is headed and what is needed to achieve your next rank. It seems odd that it would go for thsi long ( 7 years) with no advancement. I would see what he/she says then if you are unsatisfied with the answer then you can make a decision to move on. I sadly haveb know teachers that dont want their students surpassing them in rank and "run them out" once they get to black belt.

 

[Phoenix44]

I sadly haveb know teachers that dont want their students surpassing them in rank and "run them out" once they get to black belt.

Nah, I don't think there's much chance of that happening!

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[stickarts]

I started thinking about this after reading Xue Sheng's "Hard Decision" thread. I'm hoping I can count on my colleagues at Martial Talk for some considered advice and ideas.

I've been training at the same dojo for many years. I took private lessons for most of those years, attended classes several times per week, attended seminars, trained hard, came up through the ranks, and I am an instructor with a regular assignment. I've had no extended absence.

Suffice it to say that this is no McDojo, sensei has decades of experience which he continues to expand, we have a long history, but there are relatively few black belts. We have formal rituals in class, but a warm atmosphere. We consider each other friends. Some of us train in other arts, with sensei's permission, and we bring our skills back to the dojo.

So here's the issue. The kyu level classes have a clear curriculum; dan level does not. And while I know I've improved over the years, recently I've felt a lack of "direction". All my colleagues who made shodan at the same time I did--and some who tested after me--have advanced to nidan. More than 7 years passed since I tested for shodan, and I have not advanced in rank. Without a clear curriculum, I can't guess what the issue is--certainly sensei hasn't told me what I'm doing wrong, or what I should be doing right. As far as asking about it, it feels a little unseemly, you know?

So what do you think? Is it time to reassess? Time to talk to sensei? (Let's acknowledge ego. Yes, I'm human, I admit my ego is bruised. I'm a grown-up, I know I can buy a black belt with two stripes). But why continue to invest my time and energy if I'm not "growing" as a martial artist in the eyes of my teachers? Why am I permitted to teach if I can't cut it myself--or am I just a warm body filling a time slot? As a student, is it reasonable for me to expect to advance my skills, and to receive feedback? I'm starting to think that the only reason I stay is because it's where my family and friends are--but it's just not the right reason for me--I expect to learn. Is it time to call it quits here, and, like Xue Sheng, concentrate elsewhere?

Thank you for your insights and comments.

I would talk to the Sensei and just ask specifically what areas you should be working on and how he / she feels you are progressing. I appreciate it when students come and talk to me and at times it makes me realize maybe I have overlooked something or someone or at least it may make me take another look. Not having set requirements or at least clear guidelines for advancement can make it tough.

 

[tshadowchaser]

OK, it is customary to not ask for rank or advancement ... true. However it is OK to ask your teacher where he/she thinks you are and what it will take to get to the next level.

I agree with this

You might also talk with a few of those of higher rank and ask if they see any flaws in what you do and ask for suggestions on improving your performance.

When talking with your instructor do not ask to test but rather ask if there are areas that need improvement. Be sure to let him know by your willingness to improve that you what to be the best you can and that you want to represent the school/system to the best of your abilities

 

[Xue Sheng]

Do you enjoy what you are training?

Do you feel you are still learning?

Are there other things that you want to train?

Is what you are training best for you now?

And if it is just a rank thing, sorry to be a bit harsh here but, get over it.

I had many conversations with my Sifu and it took me a while to realize and longer to accept that he actually knew better than I what I was ready for. But in those conversations I figured out what I needed to do to continue to advance in Taiji and to be ready. My Sifu is fairly traditional in his views of training and he is like his Sifu and uses few words so it took a lot of conversations.

For me there were a few things. First I have always wanted to focus more on Xingyiquan and that takes time, I also want to continue train Sanda and that takes time and I want to train other things which also take time. Taiji, if trained properly, IMO, takes a whole lot of time, longer than many MAs out there. Also my taiji Sifu has no problem with Xingyiquan as long as I treat it as a warm up and I never did tell him about Sanda.

And due to my commitment to taiji as a martial art and the majority of students not wanting anything to do with that I was not exactly sure I was benefiting the current population of the class. And due to my focus on the marital side I needed to work on other things that pretty much no one else wanted to work on and some distain and other feared so again I am not sure I was a help to the class. I have yet to talk to my Sifu about this but at some point I will stop by and discuss this with him.

Also I am getting older and there are a few MA related things I want to try while I still am able to and I find that I am not in the shape I use to be in and although Taiji is very good for health I needed to work on other things at this time and again this too takes time.

If it is only a rank thing I suggest talking to your teacher about your form, your applications, your attitude and you may be surprised at what you find out or hear. And please do not argue or get offended with your teacher if he is anything like my Sifu or he WILL stop telling you anything and it will take a while to get back to the conversation.

It took me a very long time to come to this decision and the thing I had/have the biggest problem with it loyalty to my Sifu. It took me a while to figure out what was more important the loyalty to my Sifu or to myself and if those were actually different things, ultimately they were and I had to go with what I thought was best for me at the time. But I still feel a bit guilty.

However I did not close the door and I can still return when and if I want to. Which brings me too this; I am not sure I called it quits, but I am not there so it could be thought of by many that I did. As one on MT has already said, I will likely return to it eventually.

 

[Makalakumu]

Before you go to sensei, I would take a good long and hard look at yourself and how you are training. Make sure that you really know that you are at the next level. Talk to other nidans listen to their experiences and compare.

When you talk to sensei all of this should be part of the conversation.

 

[MJS]

I started thinking about this after reading Xue Sheng's "Hard Decision" thread. I'm hoping I can count on my colleagues at Martial Talk for some considered advice and ideas.

I've been training at the same dojo for many years. I took private lessons for most of those years, attended classes several times per week, attended seminars, trained hard, came up through the ranks, and I am an instructor with a regular assignment. I've had no extended absence.

Suffice it to say that this is no McDojo, sensei has decades of experience which he continues to expand, we have a long history, but there are relatively few black belts. We have formal rituals in class, but a warm atmosphere. We consider each other friends. Some of us train in other arts, with sensei's permission, and we bring our skills back to the dojo.

So here's the issue. The kyu level classes have a clear curriculum; dan level does not. And while I know I've improved over the years, recently I've felt a lack of "direction". All my colleagues who made shodan at the same time I did--and some who tested after me--have advanced to nidan. More than 7 years passed since I tested for shodan, and I have not advanced in rank. Without a clear curriculum, I can't guess what the issue is--certainly sensei hasn't told me what I'm doing wrong, or what I should be doing right. As far as asking about it, it feels a little unseemly, you know?

So what do you think? Is it time to reassess? Time to talk to sensei? (Let's acknowledge ego. Yes, I'm human, I admit my ego is bruised. I'm a grown-up, I know I can buy a black belt with two stripes). But why continue to invest my time and energy if I'm not "growing" as a martial artist in the eyes of my teachers? Why am I permitted to teach if I can't cut it myself--or am I just a warm body filling a time slot? As a student, is it reasonable for me to expect to advance my skills, and to receive feedback? I'm starting to think that the only reason I stay is because it's where my family and friends are--but it's just not the right reason for me--I expect to learn. Is it time to call it quits here, and, like Xue Sheng, concentrate elsewhere?

Thank you for your insights and comments.

Many times, once you reach the upper levels of Black Belt, there is really no set material. It usually comes down to fine tuning and getting a better understanding of what you already know, as well as giving something back to the art. I don't think that anyone should ask about rank. IMO, its not the belt that does the material, its the student. Someone could have 8 stripes on their belt, but their material could look poor. Keep training hard, and when the time comes, I'm sure a test will too. However, that doesnt mean, as some others have said, that you can't ask your teacher about your progress. Sit down with him/her and ask about your progress, if there is anything that you need to focus on, etc.

 

[DavidCC]

I started thinking about this after reading Xue Sheng's "Hard Decision" thread. I'm hoping I can count on my colleagues at Martial Talk for some considered advice and ideas.

I've been training at the same dojo for many years. I took private lessons for most of those years, attended classes several times per week, attended seminars, trained hard, came up through the ranks, and I am an instructor with a regular assignment. I've had no extended absence.

Suffice it to say that this is no McDojo, sensei has decades of experience which he continues to expand, we have a long history, but there are relatively few black belts. We have formal rituals in class, but a warm atmosphere. We consider each other friends. Some of us train in other arts, with sensei's permission, and we bring our skills back to the dojo.

So here's the issue. The kyu level classes have a clear curriculum; dan level does not. And while I know I've improved over the years, recently I've felt a lack of "direction". All my colleagues who made shodan at the same time I did--and some who tested after me--have advanced to nidan. More than 7 years passed since I tested for shodan, and I have not advanced in rank. Without a clear curriculum, I can't guess what the issue is--certainly sensei hasn't told me what I'm doing wrong, or what I should be doing right. As far as asking about it, it feels a little unseemly, you know?

So what do you think? Is it time to reassess? Time to talk to sensei? (Let's acknowledge ego. Yes, I'm human, I admit my ego is bruised. I'm a grown-up, I know I can buy a black belt with two stripes). But why continue to invest my time and energy if I'm not "growing" as a martial artist in the eyes of my teachers? Why am I permitted to teach if I can't cut it myself--or am I just a warm body filling a time slot? As a student, is it reasonable for me to expect to advance my skills, and to receive feedback? I'm starting to think that the only reason I stay is because it's where my family and friends are--but it's just not the right reason for me--I expect to learn. Is it time to call it quits here, and, like Xue Sheng, concentrate elsewhere?

Thank you for your insights and comments.

I could have written this post nearly verbatim. Except that I am only green belt.

 

[Phoenix44]

Do you enjoy what you are training?

Do you feel you are still learning?

Are there other things that you want to train?

Is what you are training best for you now?

Yes.

Probably not.

Yes.

I don't know.

It took me a while to figure out what was more important the loyalty to my Sifu or to myself and if those were actually different things, ultimately they were and I had to go with what I thought was best for me at the time.

Yes, loyalty to sensei and the dojo, friendship, and even habit come into play. But if I don't feel I'm learning, and my instructor doesn't think I'm progressing, it may be best for me to move on, and to do it without fear.

 

[LanJie]

My first instructors were high level black belts in Shaolin Kenpo and they said the same things about the upper level of black belt material.

When they started teaching me 15 years ago, they had about 15-20 years of experience each.

At the time they were teaching me their modified system of Kung fu influenced Kenpo, they were studying kung fu systems. Eventually they closed their school and we all went on to study kung fu full time.

They are both now instructors and I am studying kung fu.

I think it is your decision what art you should study but I have heard this complaint from many people over the years that began their career in hard styles.

I hope you find your way.

Good luck.

Regards,
Steve

 

[Xue Sheng]

Do you enjoy what you are training?

Yes.

Well you enjoy what you are training that is good.

Do you feel you are still learning?

Probably not.

But you do not think you are learning anything. Is this because you have actually been shown nothing new and have not progressed or are you basing this on lack of rank progression? And be brutally honest with yourself here

Are there other things that you want to train?

Yes.

What else do you want to train and does it require more time than you have if you continue to train what you are already training and are there good teachers of this near by?

Is what you are training best for you now?

I don't know.

Now this can be a hard one, figuring out what is best for you as it applies to MA

Yes, loyalty to sensei and the dojo, friendship, and even habit come into play. But if I don't feel I'm learning, and my instructor doesn't think I'm progressing, it may be best for me to move on, and to do it without fear.

Do we know what your instructor thinks, or is this an assumption?

I left my Sifu once before out of arrogance and anger and I was about 80% in the wrong. That was the bit where I figured out and accepted he does know more about it than I do. I was able to later return. This time I am leaving for a much different reason and it is a much better way to go than the first time

 

[Flying Crane]

I would talk to the Sensei and just ask specifically what areas you should be working on and how he / she feels you are progressing.

I gotta second this thought, and emphasize that you probably should not bring the ideas or rank, promotion, or "next level" into the discussion. just have a discussion about how you are training, where you might need improvement, possibly new things you'd like to learn, etc. But let HIM connect the dots with regard to ranking.

 

[Kacey]

I agree with those who say you should talk to other students and your instructor about what you need to work on; they're the only people who can tell you what you need to work on.

 

[Phoenix44]

I did speak to one other nidan student already. He said he was unaware that I hadn't been promoted during this time, that he thought I certainly deserved to, but again, in the absence of a curriculum, he didn't have any specific recommendations.

See, my issue isn't so much about how long it takes to get to any particular rank--that's been discussed on MT many times, and it varies widely by style and dojo. Still, nidan is a low BB rank, and best I can tell 7+ years of consistent training is a long time between 1st-2nd degree. It's certainly possible to go from white belt to black belt in 7 years at our dojo. It isn't even specifically about the rank (though, again, I admit, my ego is bruised)

My issue is more about setting reasonably clear goals and standards, and then applying those standards equitably. Hey, if it took everyone 10-12 years, I wouldn't expect to accomplish it in 6, and I wouldn't care if Joe's dojo across town awarded it in 2. I see it this way: as an instructor I try to be clear about standards and expectations, give constructive criticism and reinforcement, and help the students along the path to their goals. It would be reasonable for a student at any skill level--even a PhD candidate--to want the same. I'm no longer certain that's been happening in my own training.

I'm also trying to come to my own sense of whether I'm growing as a martial artist, and what direction I need to take, much as Xue Sheng is doing. It's a personal thing, obviously, but I find the comments, suggestions and insights from you folks helpful.

 

[jim777]

I started thinking about this after reading Xue Sheng's "Hard Decision" thread. I'm hoping I can count on my colleagues at Martial Talk for some considered advice and ideas.

I've been training at the same dojo for many years. I took private lessons for most of those years, attended classes several times per week, attended seminars, trained hard, came up through the ranks, and I am an instructor with a regular assignment. I've had no extended absence.

Suffice it to say that this is no McDojo, sensei has decades of experience which he continues to expand, we have a long history, but there are relatively few black belts. We have formal rituals in class, but a warm atmosphere. We consider each other friends. Some of us train in other arts, with sensei's permission, and we bring our skills back to the dojo.

So here's the issue. The kyu level classes have a clear curriculum; dan level does not. And while I know I've improved over the years, recently I've felt a lack of "direction". All my colleagues who made shodan at the same time I did--and some who tested after me--have advanced to nidan. More than 7 years passed since I tested for shodan, and I have not advanced in rank. Without a clear curriculum, I can't guess what the issue is--certainly sensei hasn't told me what I'm doing wrong, or what I should be doing right. As far as asking about it, it feels a little unseemly, you know?

So what do you think? Is it time to reassess? Time to talk to sensei? (Let's acknowledge ego. Yes, I'm human, I admit my ego is bruised. I'm a grown-up, I know I can buy a black belt with two stripes). But why continue to invest my time and energy if I'm not "growing" as a martial artist in the eyes of my teachers? Why am I permitted to teach if I can't cut it myself--or am I just a warm body filling a time slot? As a student, is it reasonable for me to expect to advance my skills, and to receive feedback? I'm starting to think that the only reason I stay is because it's where my family and friends are--but it's just not the right reason for me--I expect to learn. Is it time to call it quits here, and, like Xue Sheng, concentrate elsewhere?

Thank you for your insights and comments.

I used to have a conversation with my brother all the time, telling him he needed to talk to his Sensei about his rank. His Sensei announced one year (around '86, I think) that he would no longer test anyone, so promotions became almost non-existant. As it turned out my brother ended up being Shodan for 17 years. Amazingly (to me, anyway) it didn't bother my brother. It drove me absolutely nuts for him for a long time though. He didn't miss classes, and had 25 years of Shotokan experience from a Sensei who had studied under Funakoshi Sensei himself and only had Shodan to show for it (again, this is from where I was looking, my brother did NOT share this view). He is, and was then, a great martial artist, with textbook crisp technique, and a very easy, humble and approachable manner. Years after my wife and I moved our tribe to another state, he called me one day to say his teacher had called him to the front of the class the night before and just announced he was now Sandan. Just like that!

So, as I said to him on many occasions, I think I would speak to my Sensei and ask him where he thinks you should concentrate your efforts to becoming a better Martial Artist, and what he sees as the areas in which he thinks you need the most improvement. You don't have to mention rank, and I'm not sure I would, but you should get valuable feedback that will not only help you, but give you goals you can be objectively judged against.

 

[Phoenix44]

Do you feel you are still learning?

But you do not think you are learning anything. Is this because you have actually been shown nothing new and have not progressed or are you basing this on lack of rank progression? And be brutally honest with yourself here

I've given it a lot of thought, and it has nothing to do with rank progression. I'll be brutally honest, and here it is:

Lately, when I go to class, it feels like I'm getting together with some good friends to do martial arts. It's social, the people are great, I get a good physical workout--overall a great way to spend an evening. But I do not feel I am gaining new skills.

Are there other things that you want to train?

Yes. I have been training for 3 years in another art; I'm a beginner. BUT every time I leave class, I feel as though I've gained some insight--physical, mental or spiritual. Exactly what I've been missing in my other class.

Do we know what your instructor thinks, or is this an assumption?

No I don't know what's on his mind. I'm planning on speaking to him the next time we're both free. Either I'll get a satisfactory explanation and we'll come up with a plan, or I'll leave, but I won't "burn my bridges" or leave in anger.

 

[Ybot]

I want to chime in really fast, based on my experience as a teacher (not in martial arts), and my connected MA experience (though, I have yet to get my black belt in any art).

Speaking as an instructor, I hate it when everyone puts all the burden of learning on the teachers head. Every student has to take responsibility for their own learning, and IMO, far too many teachers are taking the blame for students who just don't do the work they have to to learn. Also, I have always looked at black belt level as the level where you should be taking the majority of the burden for improving yourself. Yes there are higher ranked people, and more experienced people who can help you, but it is your job to solicit that help. It sounds to me like you like being a beginner student, and want your sensei to hold your hand and walk you through things, but your just not at that level anymore.

My suggestion for anyone who finds themselves "stuck" because they know it all, is go back, and re-evaluate what you know. Start over with the basics and look smaller. Nobody does anything perfect, so there has to be a way to make everything you already know better. I teach swimming, and I have some of my better students who want to quit just because they know all their strokes. Just because they know it doesn't mean they can't make it better.

At this point it's up to you. If you feel you've gone far enough, and really aren't interested in making what you already know better, then do something else that will make you more happy. But don't use the excuse that your sensei didn't make you better. It's your job to make you better.