When does "life" begin?

[heretic888]

I have the answer!!

"Life" begins with single-called prokaryotic organisms and their capacity for irritability and reproduction. Happy?? :supcool:

Oh, and for what its worth, a human infant doesn't even begin to distinguish between themselves and their physical environment until the first few months after birth. And, as such, the moo-moo cow whose hammy goodness you had at McDonald's was more "alive" or "sentient" or "aware" than those vomit-spitting cuties.

Something to stew about, anyway.

 

[Tgace]

Generally...

Liberals=For Abortion/Against Capitol Punishment
Conservatives=Against Abortion/For Capitol Punishment

I just thought it was odd where some people put their values...on each side I guess. Even though I guess I fall into group #2.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I realize that this has as much chance as a popcorn fart in a windstorm, but--unless there's some nutcase somewhere--NOBODY is in favor of abortion.

Some of us are in favor of a woman's right to choose for herself. Is different thing altogether.

And the Catholic Church, as well as a number of Protestant denominations, are pro life across the board--no violences, period.

 

[raedyn]

To repeat robertson's good point:

I've never heard of someone that was FOR abortion. I am for a woman's right to choose and have control over her own body and everything within it. I'm for preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place, which renders the question of abortion moot. This would include proper sexual education, easy & cheap access to birth control, improving economic situations - these are the things that have proven to reduce abortion rates: because they prevent the unwanted pregnanies before they ever happen.

 

[Gemini]

but--unless there's some nutcase somewhere--NOBODY is in favor of abortion.

Wow, Robert! With all due respect, though I am certainly no nutcase, I, for one, do have the right to make my own decision, as do you. Please feel free to NOT speak on my behalf.

Regards,

 

[Tgace]

http://www.cato.org/dailys/11-05-03-2.html

 

[rmcrobertson]

You're in FAVOR of abortion? How the hell does that work?

Sorry, but you're misreading, I think.

 

[Tgace]

This argument for abortion, minus the egalitarian rhetoric, goes thus: "Abortion is acceptable because a woman has a right to choose what is right for her and her baby." This is all well and good, except that the key point-a fetus is not a person-is left unproved, and the "right to choose" is thrown into the argument to take its place. This argumentative red herring neatly switches the issue from "Is abortion murder?" to "Can a woman choose?". It is so effective that the former defendant is now the prosecutor, pillorying the extremists for their reprehensible attack on women's rights.

 

[Gemini]

You're in FAVOR of abortion? How the hell does that work?

Sorry, but you're misreading, I think.

No. My response didn't even address the issue. I'm against sweeping generalizations. It basically DARED someone to say otherwise. That makes me nervous. Sorry if I went off topic. And if I misunderstood, I apologize for shooting from the hip.

 

[elder999]

I'm posting this poll to see where the majority of answers lie along this spectrum. Alot of this question depends on how one sees "life" in relation to the choices given. Please explain what you believe "life" is in relation to this question and the choices given.

Thanks :asian:

upnorthkyosa

Now that the kids are out of the house, I can honestly say that life begins after 40.....hehehe...

In all seriousness, how should what I believe-'cause nobody can say with any certainty, and you left out the whole "ensouling" option, which would make life begin before conception-make any difference to anyone else?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...no, nobody's arguing for abortion. People are arguing for, "a woman's right to choose," and against having a right-wing, conservative Christian administration such as the one we've got right now tell women, their doctors, their ministers if any, and their families, what they should do about such matters. Or if you prefer, they're arguing against having some group of lefties and liberals start making these decisions for women either. In other words, it's strictly a MYOB decision--none of your business, butt out.

Moreover, you cannot supply evidence that substantiates the claim that human life begins with conception, or indeed with the first trimester. You cannot supply evidence that it doesn't. This is by definition a religious and philosophical decision, which is why Roe v. Wade assures a right to privacy about such decisions.

I could also note that for most of Western history aboration has been legal, and that the Catholic Church's own position is a fairly-recent development, but it won't do any good. But certainly, the claim that the original question was, "Is abortion murder?" simply isn't supportable--it's just propaganda.

 

[Ender]

Most of the time an abortion is last resort option of irresponsibilty.
The right to choose? Lets's see:

First of all, a woman CHOOSES have sex.

She CHOOSES under what condition she will have sex in, sober, drunk, high...

Then she CHOOSES who to have sex with, husband, boyfriend, one night stand, etc.

Then she CHOOSES whether or not to use birth control.

Then she has the CHOICE of which birth control to use.

Then she can CHOOSE when to have sex in relation to her cycle, whether she is in her fertile stage or not.

And don't even get started with the rape/incest angle because that only occurs in .01% of abortions. So it really has no relevance.

The point is, after all the choices a woman makes, an abortion is usually a last resort. I, personaly don't care one way or another if a woman has an abortion or not. But I don't believe the government should be involved. the government should not pay/promote or perform abortions. As with the second admendment, I have the right to buy a gun, doesn't mean the government should buy me one. Also, hospitals and doctors should have the CHOICE of whether or not to perform abortions.

 

[Tgace]

The "pro-choice" argument dodges the issue, but it brings up an even graver issue. Pro-choiceism, if carried to its logical conclusion, means pro-moral anarchy: there are no ethical constraints except the choice of the individual. But this brings up an important question. If all this is indeed true, why in the world are our friends such tenacious supporters of women's "rights"?

 

[RandomPhantom700]

The "pro-choice" argument dodges the issue, but it brings up an even graver issue. Pro-choiceism, if carried to its logical conclusion, means pro-moral anarchy: there are no ethical constraints except the choice of the individual. But this brings up an important question. If all this is indeed true, why in the world are our friends such tenacious supporters of women's "rights"?

Let me get this straight. Endorsing the idea that, well, people should be left to make moral choices on their own, leads directly to anarchy. Instead, I guess we should deny people the ability to make moral determinations? The hell?

To clarify for you, pro-choice doesn't mean let anyone do whatever they want. It means that, in the context of abortion, THAT choice in particular is up to the individual. Not all moral choices, but some, abortion being one of them. This doesn't at all conflict with women's rights (how you can say that pro-choice conflicts with women's rights I really have no idea.)

 

[rmcrobertson]

No, it really doesn't. There remain minor things like the woman's education, family, community and doctor, unless of course you assume that she has none of these things. There also happens to be the fact that we permit "moral anarchy," on all sorts of issues--allowing people to buy SUVs and to waste as much power as they want comes to mind--yet somehow, let women want to right to decide about having kids, and WHOMP! it's a problem.

Our tax dollars at work pay for all sorts of things of which I disapprove--tobacco subsidies, lunatic weapons, the Ronald Reagan Library--and, I am afraid, others will just have to live with the fact that their tax dollars also do the same.

And in both cases, it never fails to amaze me that the espousal of libertarian values suddenly stops dead when it comes to women. Apparently reproductive rights are somehow linked to men's sense of power and control.

"Safe, legal, and rare," gentlemen. It's a good goal.

 

[shesulsa]

Most of the time an abortion is last resort option of irresponsibilty.

And don't even get started with the rape/incest angle because that only occurs in .01% of abortions. So it really has no relevance.

Although the summation of your post seemed to be pro-choice, I take issue with the above comments - actually many of your points about choice.

In general, I'd like to say that your points are indicative of educated, sexually aware and repeatedly active females and do not account for the MANY abortions sought after by under-age, inexperienced and uneducated girls. And as for your insulting comment on rape and incest, perhaps you need to research some data on just how few rapes and incest are actually even reported, and the small percentage that are successfully prosecuted.

The arguments you posted are idealistic at best.

 

[Tgace]

I find it interesting that in capitol punishment we are to "err on the side of life" but in abortion its "we cant determine when life starts so have at it..."

 

[rmcrobertson]

...actually, the point would be, "when it comes to decisions like abortion, we have no scientific basis, so we really should leave the matter up to the conscience, the doctor, the minister and the families of the woman directly involved."

What I find interesting is that whenever these discussions come up, we get a pretty quick look at the political unconscious of those who oppose choice for women: abortion links to capital punishment, to, "moral anarchy," and the disappearance of all values, to the idea of women, "sober, drunk, high," jumping into sex in and out of marriage, to making up stories about rape and incest, to guns and too-high taxes, to self-defensiveness on the part of men faced with the withering assaults of feminists...

It's an interesting map of the intellectual territory, that's for sure.

 

[arnisador]

You're in FAVOR of abortion? How the hell does that work?

Yeah. that's weird. It's like being in favor of appendectomy. You'd only favor it when it was appropriate, right?

 

[arnisador]

This argument for abortion, minus the egalitarian rhetoric, goes thus: "Abortion is acceptable because a woman has a right to choose what is right for her and her baby."

I would say, "...and her body" instead.

Professional bioethicists, lawyers, women's studies professors, etc., have all debated this into the ground, with no resolution. We won't settle it here!