When does "life" begin?

[arnisador]

She CHOOSES under what condition she will have sex in, sober, drunk, high...

Well, if she's sufficiently drunk, it wouldn't be considered her choice any longer, right? It'd be rape?

I wonder if anyone would apply your argument to someone who Xtreme skateboards off the edge of a building and onto a freeway and gets hit by a truck. You'd pay for his health care, even though it was a risky choice, right?

 

[Tgace]

Yeah. that's weird. It's like being in favor of appendectomy. You'd only favor it when it was appropriate, right?

Well, when an appendix becomes the equivalent (over any length of time) of human life Ill buy that comparison...

 

[rmcrobertson]

...and when men grow a uterus, I'll start to concede their rights to control them.

 

[arnisador]

Well, when an appendix becomes the equivalent (over any length of time) of human life Ill buy that comparison...

The point is, one doesn't favor or disfavor a surgery in the abstract. Most people would accept abortion when the life of the mother is at stake, for example...very few people oppose the surgery, but rather they disagree on the circumstances in which it is appropriate.

 

[arnisador]

...and when men grow a uterus, I'll start to concede their rights to control them.

It's 2005. Be careful what you wish for!

 

[Tgace]

Originally Posted by rmcrobertson
...and when men grow a uterus, I'll start to concede their rights to control them.

We all await your approval on many issues.....

 

[Kane]

Life may start at conception in some ways, but the fetus does not become uniquely human until between 1-3 months. I believe before then it is okay for a woman to get an abortion for important reasons (such as rape, incest, ect.) but after 3 months it becomes almost like murdering a human.

If a woman hasn't decided by 3 months that she wants an abortion (for a good reason), then she has no right to end the life of the baby that has become uniquely human.

 

[Tgace]

Life may start at conception in some ways, but the fetus does not become uniquely human until between 1-3 months. I believe before then it is okay for a woman to get an abortion for important reasons (such as rape, incest, ect.) but after 3 months it becomes almost like murdering a human.

If a woman hasn't decided by 3 months that she wants an abortion (for a good reason), then she has no right to end the life of the baby that has become uniquely human.

Thats "pretty much" where I stand. I voted for the first trimester too....

 

[BruceCalkins]

I guess the Best Answer is "All of the Above.." Many believe that Life means Awareness.. So is that AfterBirth... But If You Play Music to a Baby in the Mom it reacts.... Is that Awareness..... Again I say..

":idunno: All Of The Above"

 

[Kane]

So yes that makes me against partial birth abortion I guess, because once the fetus becomes human the sanctity of human life must be upheld. This is coming from non-christian agnostic deist. So no, rcmcrobertson attempts to make out that catholics are creating propaganda to push their political agenda, that is nonsense. In fact Rmcrobertson is really starting to sounds a lot like a Micheal Savage gone liberal (who probably thinks conservatism is a mental disorder, like savage who thinks liberalism is a mental disorder).

 

[Kane]

No offense Rmcrobertson, but it is so painfully obvious.

 

[Gemini]

Well, I usually prefer to think things through before I answer, and this thread was no exception. After all, it's hardly the first time the issue has been raised. Though I'd like to think I keep an open mind and truly listen to other people's opinions, I'll rarely change my mind. As most I think.

This thread has proven to be one of those exceptions. I originally put "At birth" because my response was "when a child becomes aware". Without going into great detail, this thread forced me to acknowledge I was clearly wrong. And I didn't even have to look past my own personal experience to see it. See? It's amazing what happens when you open your eyes. Maybe I should try it more often.

I want to commend you all on your ability to take such a sensative topic and keep it as civil as you have. I guess that's why I lke being here so much.

Regards,

 

[Ray]

...actually, the point would be, "when it comes to decisions like abortion, we have no scientific basis, so we really should leave the matter up to the conscience, the doctor, the minister and the families of the woman directly involved."

Society sets the guidelines as to who and when makes the decisions to terminate lives (capital punishment has one set of criteria, abortion has another set of rules, etc). It doesn't necessarily depend on "scientific basis" although it may be a factor in the rules set by society.

As others have said The question of "when life begins" needs definition before answering, but the reason for asking the question probably has a bearing on the answer to be given.

 

[evenflow1121]

In an ideal world I would say that life begins at conception, but we dont live in an ideal world. And I certainly would not want that sort of theory when there are rapes, incestous rapes, and other horrors going around. For example, I would not want to live in a society where a 13 yr old girl is raped by her father and we have a type of law stating that life begins at conception. We dont live in a perfect world that is why these issues are so hard, but we also have to protect the victims, that is why imo life can only begin at birth.

 

[evenflow1121]

Oh and btw Roe v Wade is no longer good law the case you should be citing to is Planned Parent Hood of Southeastern Pa v Casey, I believe.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I see that some of us get cranky when outquipped, and that some of us aren't very good at comparasions--note to Kane: "painfully obvious," and, "probably," are probably best avoided in arguments, because they make it painfully obvious that you're probably reaching too far for a comparasion you can't sustain.

I also see that--surprise, surprise, surprise--much of this boils to men telling women what to do with their bodies, and arguing with each other over the details.

Incidentally--not that reality will bother--historically speaking, the fetus was apparently not considered viable until it began to, "quicken," to kick, that is, in a way that could be felt, somewhere around 6-7 months gestational age.

Most of the fussbudgeting is modern, and appeared--surprise, surprise!--about the time that a) capitalism needed more bodies, b) decent contraception began to be available, c) women began to be, 'a problem.'

This isn't about a fetus; it's about the Preservation of the Almighty Sperm. This isn't about trimesters; it's about men's control of women. So let's ask the REAL question--why don't you trust women to think the matter through, and make the right decision for themselves?

 

[Ray]

So let's ask the REAL question--why don't you trust women to think the matter through, and make the right decision for themselves?

I'm curious, if a woman disagreed with your view and thought that abortion should be illegal would you think that she had made the right decision?

 

[shesulsa]

I'm curious, if a woman disagreed with your view and thought that abortion should be illegal would you think that she had made the right decision?

I know you were asking Robert, but ... my answer would be that she clearly made the right decision for her. And I wouldn't dream of forcing her to have an abortion - any more than I would want her guarding my vagina with a machine gun.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree with the last poster, though I might emphasize that I specifically noted the decision was to be made for oneself.

And I see that the question I asked gets no answer; let me restate it: why shouldn't each and every woman be trusted to make this decision for herself, without men's dictation?

 

[raedyn]

See, for me, I think it's important to consider the life of the pregnant woman. To me, it takes priority over the potential life of the potential child. A mother-to-be has to sacrifice a lot in order to give the fetus growing inside of her the best chance at life once it's born. If the pregnant woman isn't committed to giving the growing life inside of her all the best chances, she can do things to screw the kid up before it's ever born - even if she ends up not keeping the child once it's born.

Of the people here saying abortion should only be done if the woman was raped how many of you have ever been pregnant? How many of have given birth? If you haven't, then you can't comprehend how completely being pregnant takes over your life and your body. It affects your ability to move, to think, to breathe. It changes what foods you can eat, how much sleep you need, what work you are able to do, how much energy you have, how you poop even! People on the street treat you differently, look at you differently. Your body changes permanently.

Being pregnent for some women can mean they
- lose their jobs
- suffer additional physical abuse from a partner or parent
- develop debilitating allergies
- suffer daily migraines for nearly 10 months
- vomit mutiple times daily for up to 10 months
It's different for every woman of course. But some women who are pregnant then suffer each of these consequences.

More women die from pregnancy & childbirth complications than from abortion-related complications. Both by number and percentage. Pregnancy is more dangeous for the woman than abortion is.

I care about the life growing inside the woman. I have been pregnant, I have given birth. I remeber the excitement of feeling those early movements. And of hearing my daughters heart beating. But the fact remains that for the first 26ish weeks of my pregnacy, if our daughter had left my body she would have died. Even with all our amazing technology, she could not survive outside my body. So she was entirely dependant on me and I had to give up a huge part of my self and my own identity to give her a place to grow and develop into her own person.

It was okay that my entire life and body was taken over by this parasite because I decided to joyfully embrace the coming life. But if I didn't want her, I could not have taken good care of myself and of her. I would have become depressed, possibly suicidal. I would have wrecked both her life and mine. How is THAT the right choice?