What's going on in Palgwe Oh-jang?

[exile]

I'm trying to get a handle on what's going on in Palgwe Oh-jang, particularly the sequence beginning with the sixteenth move involving a simultaneous front leg side kick and backfist strike on the same side (and the following elbow strike and double knifehand block subsequence), followed by the mirror image on the other side. I have a hard time believing that we are looking at a kicking strike and a backfist to the same target---if you are making contact with the side kick, the target is to far away to contact with the backfist, eh? And I'm extra skeptical of any interpretation of hyung application which posits multiple opponents---particularly in cases like this when after applying the backfist (not the most effective of finishing strikes!), the defender essentially goes into one-on-one mode with an elbow strike and a knifehand block in the same direction of movement, in effect ignoring any second attacker who might still be functional in spite of the backfist . Anyone have an idea of what a more realistic bunkai for this sequence in the fifth palgwe might be?

 

[Kwan Jang]

In any form, the attacker is always in front of you. The direction shows the angle of attack. The punch is a straight punch and not a backfist, at least in hte forms original version. The side kick should actually be a low kick towards the knee or groin to bring the opponent down into a collision with the incoming punch.

All forms were designed to have different levels of interpretation. Basically a beginner's level, an intermediate, and an advanced approach to the same technique or combo. The elbow smash on it's lowest level is a follow up trap of the head and elbow strike that does not allow the opponent to roll with it. Though this interpretation does follow the compounding odf the attack (popular in kenpo), it's kind of an awkward combo to pull of. I prefer the intermediate-level interpretation myself. It's a standing triangle choke similar to the American Kenpo combo called "the sleeper".

Finally, keep in mind that there is NO blocking in traditional forms. The knife hand middle defense is not (and never was designed to be) a block. It is a counter strike that first attacks the radial nerve as a set up and then finishes that attacker by a brachial stun.

The older Okinawan and Japanese katas (which can trace their roots back to the Chinese Yang 108 movement form) are honestly usually more efficient in their set up of progressive combinations. With the political need to distance themselves from Japanese roots, some of the early TKD leaders "sliced up" the katas without a full understanding of what they had. The value is still there and inherent in the basics and forms, but some of the flow of some of the combos can be questionable.

 

[exile]

In any form, the attacker is always in front of you. The direction shows the angle of attack. The punch is a straight punch and not a backfist, at least in hte forms original version. The side kick should actually be a low kick towards the knee or groin to bring the opponent down into a collision with the incoming punch.

OK, that makes much more sense. It looks like the creator of this palgwe in effect `superimposed' the low kick---and yes, even though it is often displayed high (as in e.g. Richard Chun's second Moo Duk Kwan book and a couple of other places I've seen it), I kind of in my mind always lower any kick in a form that goes above the waist. But what you're saying here is that the simultaneous moves are actually to be understood sequentially---that makes complete sense; many thanks for the insight.[/QUOTE]

All forms were designed to have different levels of interpretation. Basically a beginner's level, an intermediate, and an advanced approach to the same technique or combo. The elbow smash on it's lowest level is a follow up trap of the head and elbow strike that does not allow the opponent to roll with it.

Great, that makes sense too.

Though this interpretation does follow the compounding odf the attack (popular in kenpo), it's kind of an awkward combo to pull of. I prefer the intermediate-level interpretation myself. It's a standing triangle choke similar to the American Kenpo combo called "the sleeper".

Ah.... OK, thanks very much for the reference. I'll check that out. The elbow and forearm apply the choking pressure while the striking hand converts to a holding/gripping action after it's completed the strike, I guess?

Finally, keep in mind that there is NO blocking in traditional forms. The knife hand middle defense is not (and never was designed to be) a block. It is a counter strike that first attacks the radial nerve as a set up and then finishes that attacker by a brachial stun.

So the rear hand knife edge strike hits the radial nerve in the forearm and the front knife hand attacks the brachial plexus just above the clavicle? OK, I see. If it's done right, it would immobilize the attacker's striking arm...

The older Okinawan and Japanese katas (which can trace their roots back to the Chinese Yang 108 movement form) are honestly usually more efficient in their set up of progressive combinations. With the political need to distance themselves from Japanese roots, some of the early TKD leaders "sliced up" the katas without a full understanding of what they had. The value is still there and inherent in the basics and forms, but some of the flow of some of the combos can be questionable.

I'm much in your debt for this explanation, sir, and your last comment sheds light on some of the strangenesses that have been puzzling me in the later palgwes...Thanks very much again! Just goes to show how careful you have to be in `decoding' the intentions underlying these forms. I guess it's always a mistake to lose sight of the pressure to distinguish the hyungs from the katas that began in the transition from the Kwan era to unified TKD and probably led to all kinds of distorting modifications...