kata sequence question

[exile]

Can any of you karateka identify a kata in which the following sequence of moves occurs somewhere within the form?

i. Move into a left front stance and perform (some block with left hand);
ii. Still in left front stance, perform right hand reverse punch with rechamber followed by lefthand lunge punch;
iii. Following this, simultaneously deliver (a) front leg side kick (i.e., w/left leg) and (b) left hand backfist;
iv. Right horizontal elbow strike to left palm;
v. Move into left side back stance performing double middle knifehand block with right hand in lead;
vi. 180 degree turn into into right hand block (of whatever kind) in right front stance;
vii. Still in right front stance, perform left hand reverse punch w/rechamber followed by right hand lunge punch;
viii. Following this, simultaneously deliver (a) front leg side kick (i.e., w/right leg) and (b) righthand back fist;
ix. Left horizontal elbow strike to right palm;
x. Move into right side back stance performing double middle knifehand block with left hand in lead.

If there is such a kata, does anyone who recognizes it know what the bunkai---particularly, the okuden waza---are for this sequence? This is a sequence within Palgwe 5 of TKD, and the Palgwes are particularly clearly based on Japanese kata, though many of the sequences have undergone recombination....

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Sorry not ringing a bell for me. If I saw a video that might help.

 

[twendkata71]

Sounds like a combination of several kata. I doesn't sound like any individual kata that I know. The double knife hand block are found in a few kata. Most notably the kata Chinto,(Shotokan Gankaku), the rest of it I am not sure.

Can any of you karateka identify a kata in which the following sequence of moves occurs somewhere within the form?

i. Move into a left front stance and perform (some block with left hand);
ii. Still in left front stance, perform right hand reverse punch with rechamber followed by lefthand lunge punch;
iii. Following this, simultaneously deliver (a) front leg side kick (i.e., w/left leg) and (b) left hand backfist;
iv. Right horizontal elbow strike to left palm;
v. Move into left side back stance performing double middle knifehand block with right hand in lead;
vi. 180 degree turn into into right hand block (of whatever kind) in right front stance;
vii. Still in right front stance, perform left hand reverse punch w/rechamber followed by right hand lunge punch;
viii. Following this, simultaneously deliver (a) front leg side kick (i.e., w/right leg) and (b) righthand back fist;
ix. Left horizontal elbow strike to right palm;
x. Move into right side back stance performing double middle knifehand block with left hand in lead.

If there is such a kata, does anyone who recognizes it know what the bunkai---particularly, the okuden waza---are for this sequence? This is a sequence within Palgwe 5 of TKD, and the Palgwes are particularly clearly based on Japanese kata, though many of the sequences have undergone recombination....

 

[twendkata71]

The double knife hand blocks in Palqwe 5 are not like the ones in Chinto. I saw a video of the form and it does not resemble any Okinawan or Japanese kata that I know. I downloaded a copy from Mr. Mchenrys forms site. He has all of the forms of Taekwondo,Tangsoodo,and some Hapkido forms.
[URL="http://mchenry.homeip.net/tangsoodo/forms/index.htm[/URL]

 

[exile]

The double knife hand blocks in Palqwe 5 are not like the ones in Chinto. I saw a video of the form and it does not resemble any Okinawan or Japanese kata that I know. I downloaded a copy from Mr. Mchenrys forms site. He has all of the forms of Taekwondo,Tangsoodo,and some Hapkido forms.
[URL="http://mchenry.homeip.net/tangsoodo/forms/index.htm[/URL]

Brandon and Twendkata---thanks for your feedback. I got some input on this from Kwan Jang, who informed me that the simultaneous backfist and side kicks were superimposed on each other in the form, but in the bunkai need to be distinguished, and the backfist is `code' for a straight punch. So it's a low stike to groin or knee setting up a straight punch to the attacker's lowered head. Now that makes sense... as he says, TKD sometimes does this sort of thing with the Okinawan/Japanese forms that are the whole foundation for its hyungs, so there's an extra layer of concealment on top of what's already there in the kata.

BTW, thanks also for the pointer to Master Mac's site---I love that place, but I can't access it any more! My old laptop was a PC clone from Toshiba that I set up as a Linux box and so could get the built in Microsoft apps to run .wmv files, which Master Macs vids are, but my current machine is a Mac powerbook with its own Unix core---great, quick and a lot more robust than Linux ever was, but now I can't access MMac's vids. Just one of them things---you can't run wmv from OS X, period.

 

[twendkata71]

After looking at the video's of the Palgwe series, it seems that they are mixed versions from the Pinan/heian kata series with other movements added. I think that the masters that created these Hyung/Poomse wanted them to look different from the Pinan series. But,they are definetely from the Pinan series.

 

[exile]

After looking at the video's of the Palgwe series, it seems that they are mixed versions from the Pinan/heian kata series with other movements added. I think that the masters that created these Hyung/Poomse wanted them to look different from the Pinan series. But,they are definetely from the Pinan series.

Yes, that's what I've thought for a while. They have a reputation for being a lot older and more `traditional' than the Taegeuks, and the connection to the Pinan katas explains why. Thanks for that information!

 

[IWishToLearn]

Actually sounds like a variation on either Peian (Heian or Pinan) Yondan/#4 or Kanku Dai.

 

[exile]

Actually sounds like a variation on either Peian (Heian or Pinan) Yondan/#4 or Kanku Dai.

Steve---thanks for the pointer, I'll try to run down a detailed description of those two kata. Twendkata's previous post reinforced my sense that there was a special relationship between the Pinan (`Peian'---that's brilliant!) and the Palgwe forms---I've heard TKD people (including my own instructor) say that the Palgwes are connected to much older forms, and I think of the Okinawan Pinans as sort of the touchstone for old traditional kata. What Kwang Jang indicated on the TKD forum was that whatever the specific source of Palgwe Oh-Jang was, it involved superposition of what had originally been sequences of movement---the bunkai for this Palgwe, that is, involved a sequence of low kick/mid-punch (to lowered head), but there had been a deliberate disguishing of the application when the Palgwe was composed so that (i) a straight punch is replace by a backfist and (ii) the kick-then-punch sequence become a simultaneous kick/punch move. But this is the first I've heard about a specific kata I could try to relate the fifth Palgwe to. Thanks again---

 

[IWishToLearn]

Steve---thanks for the pointer, I'll try to run down a detailed description of those two kata. Twendkata's previous post reinforced my sense that there was a special relationship between the Pinan (`Peian'---that's brilliant!) and the Palgwe forms---I've heard TKD people (including my own instructor) say that the Palgwes are connected to much older forms, and I think of the Okinawan Pinans as sort of the touchstone for old traditional kata. What Kwang Jang indicated on the TKD forum was that whatever the specific source of Palgwe Oh-Jang was, it involved superposition of what had originally been sequences of movement---the bunkai for this Palgwe, that is, involved a sequence of low kick/mid-punch (to lowered head), but there had been a deliberate disguishing of the application when the Palgwe was composed so that (i) a straight punch is replace by a backfist and (ii) the kick-then-punch sequence become a simultaneous kick/punch move. But this is the first I've heard about a specific kata I could try to relate the fifth Palgwe to. Thanks again---

Background information: I use the clock principle to give a point of reference. From the starting position the clock stays the same. Straight ahead is 12:00 (North), directly behind is 6:00 (South), 90 degrees left is 9:00 (West), and 90 degrees right is 3:00 (East).

To the best of my recollection (haven't practiced my traditional forms in about a year) the way I do Peian Yondan is as such:

1)Start in Yoi (ready) position.
2)Rotate to left back stance facing 9:00, simultaneously execute double lower fingertip strikes to the groin/gall bladder area.
2a)Maintaining the same stance, execute a simultaneous left outer vertical (uppercut style) thrust with the left hand (finishing at chin height) and a right upper knifehand block (upper body block with knifehand hand configuration).
3)Rotate (by moving R leg) to face 3:00, duplicate movements from #'s 2 & 2a to 3:00.
4)Turning to face 12:00, c-step left leg forward to Left Front Stance simultaneously executing a double crossing lower body block.
5)Move right leg forward to Right Back Stance facing 12:00, simultaneously executing a right outward reinforced block, rib height.
6)(With a snapping motion) move l leg to right leg facing 12:00, both knees flexed (no more than 45 degrees) simultaneously snapping both fists to your right hip, right hand chambered on your right hip facing up, left hand one fist distance above it, facing down.
7)Towards 10:30, execute simultaneous left side thrust kick to the knee, and left backhand strike to the face.
7a)Rechamber the kick, but leave the fist extended, then open the fist (as if you just backhanded someone in the face, then opening your hand signifies like you were grabbing them around the back of their neck to sandwich with the next move).
8)From 7a, slide your left leg towards 1030 rotating to Left Front Stance simultaneously delivering a right sandwiching elbow strike to your extended left palm.
9)Again using the snapping motions, drag your right leg to your left leg, mirroring the positions from 6, left fist on your left hip facing up, right fist facing down, one fist distance above the left.
10)Towards 1:30, execute simultaneous right side thrust kick to the knee, and right backhand strike to the face.
10a)Rechamber the kick, but leave the fist extended, then open the fist (as if you just backhanded someone in the face, then opening your hand signifies like you were grabbing them around the back of their neck to sandwich with the next move).
11)From 10a, slide your left leg towards 1:30 rotating to Right Front Stance simultaneously delivering a left sandwiching elbow strike to your extended right palm.
12)Maintaining Right Front Stance facing 1:30, execute simultaneous right upper knifehand block, and left lower palmheel block (in front of your groin).
13)Sliding right leg forward to Right Front Stance facing 12:00, execute simultaneous left upper knifehand block and right slicing horizontal knifehand strike to the neck.
14)Simultaneously fold right hand down to your hip, and bring it up to your right shoulder while you fold your left hand down to chest height in front of you (act like you're taking your hand down from your block and grabbing your opponent's shirt), simultaneously delivering a right front snap kick to the groin, after the kick, rechamber and glide your right leg forward to a right twist stance (left leg behind right leg) while you pull your left hand (visualize pulling your opponent into the kick) with a snapping motion to your left hip (chamber your fist facing up) and deliver a right vertical backfist strike (to where your opponent's head would be as you pull him into the kick). (Kiai) You should be moving towards 12:00, but you will end up facing (in your twist stance) approximately 10:00 with your torso.
15)Rotating counter-clockwise, spin to face 4:30 and slide your left leg out to Left Front Stance, simultaneously delivering a double crossing upper X block.
16)From the X block position, use outward circular motions to uncross your arms, coming to rest with your fists approximately in front of your shoulders. (Left in front of left shoulder, right in front of right.)
17)Deliver a right snapping front kick to the groin, rechamber and slide your right leg forward to right front stance, simultaneously delivering a right full turn punch, then a left full turn punch. (Kiai)
18)Move right leg using a c-step motion to face 7:30 in a Right Front Stance, deliver a double crossing upper X block.
19)From the X block position, use outward circular motions to uncross your arms, coming to rest with your fists approximately in front of your shoulders. (Left in front of left shoulder, right in front of right.)
20)Deliver a left snapping front kick to the groin, rechamber and slide your left leg forward to left front stance, simultaneously delivering a left full turn punch, then a right full turn punch. (Kiai)
21)Move left leg to 6:00 in a Left Back Stance simultaneously executing a left outer reinforced block to rib height.
22)Move right leg forward to 6:00 in a Right Back Stance simultaneously executing a right outer reinforced block at rib height.
23)Move left leg to 6:00 in a Left Back Stance simultaneously executing a left outer reinforced block to rib height.
24)Rotate to Left Front Stance, simultaneously raising both hands, fingers together and extended, arms parallel to the ground to throat height, finishing with the hands in a diamond shape (index fingers and thumbs touching, like you were doing a diamond pushup) at throat height (like you were choking someone).
25)Simultaneously delivering a right front knee strike to the groin and slapping both hands against your leg (think like you are grabbing someone around the throat and then slamming them into your knee/leg), then move r leg towards 6:00, and rotate your body 180 degrees counter-clockwise, finishing in a Left Back Stance to 12:00, simultaneously executing a left knifehand block.
26)Slide left leg backwards (moving leg towards 6:00) to Right Back Stance to 12:00 simultaneously executing a right knifehand block. (Kiai!)
27)Close
28)Bow


Hopefully this is some help. Enjoy

 

[IWishToLearn]

Also - go find Kanku Dai written out - I only remembered Peian Yondan because I did it so many times since 2000 when I learned it - I just learned Kanku Dai in 2004, then stopped practicing it in 2005. A year later - it's gone.

 

[IWishToLearn]

OOhhh also forgot one point. Any stance is listed as Right or Left because that is the foot that is forward. Right Back Stance = Right foot in front, facing 12:00, left foot in rear, facing 9:00, 80-90% of weight on back leg.

 

[exile]

...Hopefully this is some help. Enjoy

Whoa... Steve, I owe you big-time for this. That must have taken you an hour to do... that's terrific, I'm going to go print it out, and then try it on for size.

Really appreciate it! :asian:

 

[exile]

Also - go find Kanku Dai written out - I only remembered Peian Yondan because I did it so many times since 2000 when I learned it - I just learned Kanku Dai in 2004, then stopped practicing it in 2005. A year later - it's gone.

I can probably find a description somewhere, doubt it'll be as clear as the one you wrote out for Peian Y. You probably do have Kanku Dai buried down there somewhere... a few layers underneath remembering how to set up the TIVO package you finally wound up getting from your cable company. :wink1:

 

[exile]

OOhhh also forgot one point. Any stance is listed as Right or Left because that is the foot that is forward. Right Back Stance = Right foot in front, facing 12:00, left foot in rear, facing 9:00, 80-90% of weight on back leg.

Thanks---I figured it was probably that; TKD descriptions usually use `right/left' in just the same way.

 

[IWishToLearn]

*grumble* I'll go back & look at my tapes on Kanku Dai and practice it and see if I can't write it out soon. Remind me. ;-)

 

[exile]

*grumble* I'll go back & look at my tapes on Kanku Dai and practice it and see if I can't write it out soon. Remind me. ;-)

Now I feel like a slavedriver... believe me, if you can recover it and write out a description like the one for Peian Y I won't complain, but I feel guilty enough already that you took the time to do all that already...

But it's true: you probably don't forget a kata once you've learned it.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I switched styles from traditional system to kenpo - once you get kenpo basics ingrained in you - the traditional japanese or korean ones I did for so long just do NOT feel right any more - I went to walk through kanku dai with the tape I had of myself doing it and I just can't justify to myself doing a fight with invisible opponents while moving in front and back stances any more - I feel far to exposed and not nearly enough weapons available with half the power and speed of my kenpo stances. Just fyi, Peian Yondan took me bout 25 minutes to write from memory - would have been faster but Norco makes memory a *****

Anywho - I don't ever see myself performing these again with the traditionalist basics - I'd have to modify them to kenpo basics for my body to feel right about doing the forms. I can, however write them out. Here's the list of the ones I can remember off the top of my head:
Wansu
Y-Kata (I think this was created by my instructor or his instructor so it's probably not used anywhere else.)
Peian Shodan
Peian Nidan
Peian Sandan
Peian Yondan
Peian Godan
Hangetsu
Gei Kisai
Patsai (Bassai) Dai
Yasashii Do Kata (Created by my instructor - combination of Empi, Patsai Dai, with elements of Kanku Dai.)
Yasashii Do Kokoro (Same - different forms combination.)
Yasashii Do Bo Kata (Created by my instructor.)
Gei Kisai (Sai Version) - Also created by my instructor, combination of Gei Kisai and Patsai Dai, done with the sai.


If I really had to I could probably dig out and write up:
Naihonchi Shodan
Naihonchi Nidan
Empi
Kanku Dai
Jihon
Jutte (Jitte)


Lots of work - let me know if you really need it. I can do some of them while I'm bored at work. PM me to remind me.

 

[IWishToLearn]

What Kwang Jang indicated on the TKD forum was that whatever the specific source of Palgwe Oh-Jang was, it involved superposition of what had originally been sequences of movement---the bunkai for this Palgwe, that is, involved a sequence of low kick/mid-punch (to lowered head), but there had been a deliberate disguishing of the application when the Palgwe was composed so that (i) a straight punch is replace by a backfist and (ii) the kick-then-punch sequence become a simultaneous kick/punch move.

For reference, in Kenpo we utilize a LOT of simultaneous strikes to a lower body and an upper body target. It allows us to seriously create damage quicker and really plays haywire with someone when they get hit from 3 places simultaneously.

Now then...

One of your comments I'm confused on - where you stated someone told you a backfist is code for a straight punch. If I perform a side kick with my left leg (to the knee or elsewhere) and then attempt a straight punch with the same hand...where do you generate any torque or any hip rotation for power? Even if someone drops their head, from the position these forms are taught from, you're standing face to face - so with that granted - you'd be punching them on the top of their head. Clarify this for me?

However - the whipping backfist strike combination does present a much better target opportunity - since you can direct that backfist horizontally to the side of a dropped head or you can be really mean and use more of a vertical hammerfist strike as he's coming down and meet him in the middle. Poor guy.

 

[exile]

For reference, in Kenpo we utilize a LOT of simultaneous strikes to a lower body and an upper body target. It allows us to seriously create damage quicker and really plays haywire with someone when they get hit from 3 places simultaneously.

Now then...

One of your comments I'm confused on - where you stated someone told you a backfist is code for a straight punch. If I perform a side kick with my left leg (to the knee or elsewhere) and then attempt a straight punch with the same hand...where do you generate any torque or any hip rotation for power? Even if someone drops their head, from the position these forms are taught from, you're standing face to face - so with that granted - you'd be punching them on the top of their head. Clarify this for me?

Hi Steve---thanks for comment---we're just abt to leave to take our 9-year son to a Mediaeval festival (weapons are his life so he'll be in 7th heaven)---will respond in full later this evening---cheers, X'l.