What'd your method of teaching the Dimensional Zone Theory? When?

[Kenposcholar]

At what point do you teach the Dimensional Zone Theory to your students and how? Our school doesn't particularly have a point in time, specific technique, or form that we teach this concept. Same thing about the four quadrants.
Thanks,
Kenposcholar

 

[Touch Of Death]

We teach neutrality, somewhere around the first day, and introduce what neutrality is not, in the coming months to follow.

 

[jvbird]

Must be a Skip disciple...me as well...

 

[Tiger84]

At what point do you teach the Dimensional Zone Theory to your students and how? Our school doesn't particularly have a point in time, specific technique, or form that we teach this concept. Same thing about the four quadrants.
Thanks,
Kenposcholar

You teach them when they become relevant.. at yellow belt. Students are introduced to zone theories when they start doing techniques. The focus at this time is mainly on cancelling your opponents zones i.e. height, width, depth. As new techniques deal with more zones you point them out and as they advance they should be asking "if my opponent has all these zones do I" and you say "you don't know the half of it" lol.

 

[Sifu Cole]

At what point do you teach the Dimensional Zone Theory to your students and how? Our school doesn't particularly have a point in time, specific technique, or form that we teach this concept. Same thing about the four quadrants.
Thanks,
Kenposcholar

Umm, which one?
I usually just throw book thee of I.I. at students and see what they get out of it. No, just kidding.

The first dimensional discussion is the HWD of tge beginners NB.
Body mechanics determine each individual NB. Rarely are the HWD of NB's the same, but how you get there us easy and works well as long as you have two feet.

The next step is to discuss how to move through each dimension. Pivotting, weight shifting and gauging each stance for what it is for.
Pivotting on the feet and pivotting the hips.

Next, the conceptual box (a box partially covering the top two dimensions of heightand) and it's extended version, the conceptual rectangle.

We create imaginary anchor points of time and space along the corners, mid lines as well as outside the lines for the extended outward block.

There you go, three examples of dimendion in training.

Clark

 

[Kenposcholar]

Umm, which one?
I usually just throw book thee of I.I. at students and see what they get out of it. No, just kidding.

The first dimensional discussion is the HWD of tge beginners NB.
Body mechanics determine each individual NB. Rarely are the HWD of NB's the same, but how you get there us easy and works well as long as you have two feet.

The next step is to discuss how to move through each dimension. Pivotting, weight shifting and gauging each stance for what it is for.
Pivotting on the feet and pivotting the hips.

Next, the conceptual box (a box partially covering the top two dimensions of heightand) and it's extended version, the conceptual rectangle.

We create imaginary anchor points of time and space along the corners, mid lines as well as outside the lines for the extended outward block.

There you go, three examples of dimendion in training.

Clark

Thanks! I really appreciate the insight in your teaching style.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

At what point do you teach the Dimensional Zone Theory to your students and how? Our school doesn't particularly have a point in time, specific technique, or form that we teach this concept. Same thing about the four quadrants.
Thanks,
Kenposcholar

I introduce dimensional zone theory during the first lesson when I start teaching Environmental Awareness and reading and communicating with Body Language.

I often use the analogy of a "snake" to explain how an enemy would opt to move around without drawing attention, where a predator may place themselves and how they would position their body so that they are coiled to strike prey. I want my students to start thinking about people that are "coiled to spring" and to associate their training partner with predators and attacks with the lethality that snake bites conjure up. When they have made that connection and I get into manipulating of Height, Width and Depth Zones their is a greater appreciation for the effects of "disrupting the coiled snake" or breaking the link in the coiled energy so that the enemy loses the lethality in their attack.

 

[Kenposcholar]

I introduce dimensional zone theory during the first lesson when I start teaching Environmental Awareness and reading and communicating with Body Language.

I often use the analogy of a "snake" to explain how an enemy would opt to move around without drawing attention, where a predator may place themselves and how they would position their body so that they are coiled to strike prey. I want my students to start thinking about people that are "coiled to spring" and to associate their training partner with predators and attacks with the lethality that snake bites conjure up. When they have made that connection and I get into manipulating of Height, Width and Depth Zones their is a greater appreciation for the effects of "disrupting the coiled snake" or breaking the link in the coiled energy so that the enemy loses the lethality in their attack.

Thanks for the explanation! Really enjoy the snake metaphor as I hadn't heard it before.

 

[Headhunter]

To me that stuff doesn't matter. Kenpo is a street fighting art so the main purpose is to learn the self defence. I believe there's to much theory in kenpo. The techniques work but but it's bogged down with things like that. That's what puts a lot of people off the art they simply don't care about that stuff they just to learn self defence.

If people want to learn that stuff later on then great but it shouldn't be something that you're forced to learn

 

[Touch Of Death]

To me that stuff doesn't matter. Kenpo is a street fighting art so the main purpose is to learn the self defence. I believe there's to much theory in kenpo. The techniques work but but it's bogged down with things like that. That's what puts a lot of people off the art they simply don't care about that stuff they just to learn self defence.

If people want to learn that stuff later on then great but it shouldn't be something that you're forced to learn

Actually these are the details where the Devil hangs out.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

To me that stuff doesn't matter. Kenpo is a street fighting art so the main purpose is to learn the self defence. I believe there's to much theory in kenpo. The techniques work but but it's bogged down with things like that. That's what puts a lot of people off the art they simply don't care about that stuff they just to learn self defence.

If people want to learn that stuff later on then great but it shouldn't be something that you're forced to learn

Kenpo movements without understanding why is a very dangerous thing.

 

[Headhunter]

Kenpo movements without understanding why is a very dangerous thing.

Yeah I've heard that before. I don't bye it. I've seen guys who know all the techniques and forms but couldn't say a thing about it and they're amazing I wouldn't want to go against them.

Same with my own kids I taught them kenpo for self defence and didnt teach them all that and they're very capable at what they do and have used the moves to defend themselves.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yeah I've heard that before. I don't bye it. I've seen guys who know all the techniques and forms but couldn't say a thing about it and they're amazing I wouldn't want to go against them.

Same with my own kids I taught them kenpo for self defence and didnt teach them all that and they're very capable at what they do and have used the moves to defend themselves.

There is actually a logic to kenpo kicking, It's not just the moves, you kick when its the fastest thing to do, based on a theory of combat. Some call it the Dimensional Zone Theory...

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

Yeah I've heard that before. I don't bye it. I've seen guys who know all the techniques and forms but couldn't say a thing about it and they're amazing I wouldn't want to go against them.

Same with my own kids I taught them kenpo for self defence and didnt teach them all that and they're very capable at what they do and have used the moves to defend themselves.

I don't doubt you, you can produce a very dangerous practitioner of Kenpo without them understanding the logic of the system. For example, if all they know is that if they move like this they hit harder or if they do that they will snap an elbow, that is enough to be dangerous, they don't need to know how a fulcrum works or what class of lever they are using when they snap that joint, they don't need to know what dimensional options they cancel out when they twist a neck in a particular way as long as they know the HOW and get the desired result. The only real benefits to knowing WHY and improving ones understanding of the logic of the system is to take the ideas that exist within the box of the system and be able to adapt them to solves unfamiliar problems and to help answer a students questions when they eventually ask their instructor WHY are we doing it this way and not this other way or WHY is my technique not working and for those rare few who have unlimited time on their hands and want to really tweak or sophisticate a movement to get more bang for their efforts they can engineer a more devastating application. If the original how they are taught is plenty effective enough and they don't have any ambition to be future instructors I understand why some would not bother explaining the WHY.

 

[Kenposcholar]

I think it is the difference between having a conversation with an uneducated person and an english graduate. They are both able to communicate better than a non-english speaker; however, one of them is more adept at formulating new or more advanced sentences that weren't explicitly taught/read/simple.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

As long as people don't confuse knowing of a concept or Kenpo Principle with actually having ingrained it so that it fortifies or otherwise enhances their application. When I see someone that is fighting exceptionally well, I notice the concepts and principles at work in everything they are doing and when I see someone that is fighting ineffectively I see the concepts and principles missing or being bastardized. In either case the knowledge and awareness of these concepts and principles are not as important as their actual manifesting during action.

If a guy throws a punch and he has no back up mass, no torque, very little momentum, poor structural alignment, holding his breath, head looking down and eyes looking away, body floating up and footwork over pivoting, upper and lower body disconnected and out of sync, tension long before impact (breaks on), poor angle of incidence so penetration is instead dispersed over a wide surface area, no limitations on his opponents dimensional zones such that they can respond and defend his punch easily, has no mechanisms in place from preventing counters, all his vital targets left wide open, center-line offered up on a silver plate, piss poor target selection and so on, Inevitably this guy would be destroyed if his opponent has any skill at all. If the reverse is true but the puncher has no knowledge of these things but they are still ingrained in his application that would be enough to be effective. So in that sense knowledge of it is not as important as being able to manifest it during the moment of truth.

 

[Headhunter]

As long as people don't confuse knowing of a concept or Kenpo Principle with actually having ingrained it so that it fortifies or otherwise enhances their application. When I see someone that is fighting exceptionally well, I notice the concepts and principles at work in everything they are doing and when I see someone that is fighting ineffectively I see the concepts and principles missing or being bastardized. In either case the knowledge and awareness of these concepts and principles are not as important as their actual manifesting during action.

If a guy throws a punch and he has no back up mass, no torque, very little momentum, poor structural alignment, holding his breath, head looking down and eyes looking away, body floating up and footwork over pivoting, upper and lower body disconnected and out of sync, tension long before impact (breaks on), poor angle of incidence so penetration is instead dispersed over a wide surface area, no limitations on his opponents dimensional zones such that they can respond and defend his punch easily, has no mechanisms in place from preventing counters, all his vital targets left wide open, center-line offered up on a silver plate, piss poor target selection and so on, Inevitably this guy would be destroyed if his opponent has any skill at all. If the reverse is true but the puncher has no knowledge of these things but they are still ingrained in his application that would be enough to be effective. So in that sense knowledge of it is not as important as being able to manifest it during the moment of truth.

My problem is there's a lot of senior grades in kenpo that I've seen who can talk for hours about concepts but quite honestly I don't believe they can fight. I'm not saying that's every kenpo guy because of course it's not but I have observed a small number who can talk for days but when it comes down to doing the techniques or sparring they can't do it. That's my problem. It's like a kid who can tell you everything about a car, how the engine works how to put it together etc but it doesn't matter if you can't drive the thing.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

My problem is there's a lot of senior grades in kenpo that I've seen who can talk for hours about concepts but quite honestly I don't believe they can fight. I'm not saying that's every kenpo guy because of course it's not but I have observed a small number who can talk for days but when it comes down to doing the techniques or sparring they can't do it. That's my problem. It's like a kid who can tell you everything about a car, how the engine works how to put it together etc but it doesn't matter if you can't drive the thing.

I have run into those guys as well, I recall one guy who had me convinced that he was a bad-motha-sucka, trained SWAT team, grew up in a Biker Gang, roomed with a pro MMA guy (who he trained with) had pictures with dang near all the Kenpo Seniors, could talk Kenpo for hours and if you dummied for him during a technique he would hit you hard. Then we got around to sparring and it would have been hilarious if not for his high rank, he ran around screaming in pain and made excuses that his real specialty was grappling on account of the MMA background, so we all played along and decided to just roll, he was screaming and tapping out on the transitions not even any actual locks, so yeah I get it...

 

[RavenDarkfellow]

To me that stuff doesn't matter. Kenpo is a street fighting art so the main purpose is to learn the self defence. I believe there's to much theory in kenpo. The techniques work but but it's bogged down with things like that. That's what puts a lot of people off the art they simply don't care about that stuff they just to learn self defence.

If people want to learn that stuff later on then great but it shouldn't be something that you're forced to learn

The thing about the theory is that-- while you don't have to completely understand it to make techniques work-- it's core to understanding the system of Kenpo (or any martial art for that matter) as a whole.

When I was training in Kenpo, I LOVED learning about the philosophy/theory behind it all, because when you understand all that (the very essence of "why" you're doing anything) then the techniques begin to teach themselves. The theory tells you why any of the techniques you learn are going to work-- if you knew 100% of the theory, and 0% of the actual techniques (somehow... I dunno how that would be possible, but stay with me) you could figure out exactly how to accomplish the same outcome for a vast majority of the techniques.

Sure, if you were a brand-new clean-slate beginner, you would need people to show you how to throw an effective strike, where to land it, etc.; but the techniques would unfold for you on their own.

Philosophy and theory are extremely important.

 

[Headhunter]

The thing about the theory is that-- while you don't have to completely understand it to make techniques work-- it's core to understanding the system of Kenpo (or any martial art for that matter) as a whole.

When I was training in Kenpo, I LOVED learning about the philosophy/theory behind it all, because when you understand all that (the very essence of "why" you're doing anything) then the techniques begin to teach themselves. The theory tells you why any of the techniques you learn are going to work-- if you knew 100% of the theory, and 0% of the actual techniques (somehow... I dunno how that would be possible, but stay with me) you could figure out exactly how to accomplish the same outcome for a vast majority of the techniques.

Sure, if you were a brand-new clean-slate beginner, you would need people to show you how to throw an effective strike, where to land it, etc.; but the techniques would unfold for you on their own.

Philosophy and theory are extremely important.

What is the prime focus of kenpo? It is a self defence based system.

That means teaching what works. Not standing there teaching a lecture about category completion or quadrant zones or major minor moves. The time wasted talking could be much better spent drilling the technique which is what will save your life if your attacked.