What was Wing Chun designed for?

[Phobius]

If this thread is about boxing. Train boxing. No point in having a discussion about it when minds are set. It is just a waste of training time.

I still think the discussion is silly. First it is about having long range game. Then a game that is about positioning and footwork to get in range for striking or stay in range of kicking is not acceptable because it has to be about fighting a WB boxer as a WB boxer.

This is in itself a long discussion.

Now it seems to be statements such as WC not being able to handle itself.

This is not a discussion. So therefore I say. Train whatever you need. But do it as MMA and not trying to integrate WB to WC. Not unless you already have the answer and want to spread it.

It is all about creating the fighter and not the art. I personally do not need boxing to teach me about what you all talked about here. WC/WT gives me what you say it does not.

Now I care not about what you believe and there are many WC places out there that are not similar to mine to say it gently.

Just if people think mixing is the answer then be aware that the result will not be a mix, it will be something completely new and untested.

 

[LFJ]

Nope. I have no idea who that guy is. But he seems to recognize common sense when he sees it!

Well I would say, based on his comments regarding the talent of the boxers in those videos he is showing a rather startling lack of common sense. My first thought was to watch the one video and look at the names then Google.

Arthur "King" James Williams was actually a dang good boxer during the time that K-1 fight happened. Arthur Williams (boxer) - Wikipedia

To me when you are going to make a comment on the skill of a fighter, if you have a name, you check out the fighter's record.

That's why I guess he's either KPM's kid student or KPM's new troll account.

He shows equal ignorance but greater immaturity.

 

[LFJ]

I don't think anybody is saying VT doesn't have a system for long range strinking. They are saying that if given the choice to pick any system for long range fighting. They will pick a good one.

KPM has been saying VT doesn't have a long-range game, based on his lack of VT knowledge.

One also isn't justified in saying whether something is good or not if they have no knowledge of it.

Skepticism is fine, but agnostic is the correct position if you lack the knowledge and experience to judge.

So given a choice between what two guys sparring in their living room use. And what champion fighters use.

For some reason people are leaning towards what champions use.

Yeah. Sounds logical. The problem is, just picking a popular and respected ring sport to gap-fill your missing long-range game without deeper thought is a silly mistake.

When looking to fill gaps it's important to do so intelligently, taking into consideration what exactly you're trying to accomplish if you hope to do so successfully.

To tack on a long-range game from Western Boxing to a free-fighting method is stupid because it fails to consider all the dangers boxing is susceptible to when not working under the ring rules that allow it to safely behave as it does. Various videos show the failures quite clearly.

Much has to be changed and gaps have to be filled for it, too! That's just compounding the difficulties of coming up with a functional free-fighting system starting from fractured, non-functional Wing Chun.

As chun does not dominate with kicks at any range. I would suggest a heavy front leg. I also would not sit in kicking range though either. All the way in or all the way out.

VT doesn't use a lead-rear leg stance at long-range. It keeps the leg out of the danger zone, either outside of kicking range, or inside of it.

This can help in drawing and baiting tactics to get the opponent to overextend, which opens them up for counter-kicking or punching. It's deceptive in that you don't actually lose reach. Of course, there's a lot more to the strategy and long-range tactics to accomplish this.

 

[LFJ]

double

 

[KPM]

KPM has been saying VT doesn't have a long-range game, based on his lack of VT knowledge.

---And you have clearly demonstrated that you don't even understand what having a "long range game" means for the methods that actually have one! You have confused a "long range strategy" with a "long range game" over and over and obviously believe they are the same thing. Clearly a lack of fighting knowledge!

Skepticism is fine, but agnostic is the correct position if you lack the knowledge and experience to judge.

---Ok. And the skeptic and agnostic asks "show me the evidence" or "prove it." Which you very obviously haven't been able to do!!!!

---And, in anticipation of your next pathetic response that has been repeated multiple times now.....No, you haven't! That clip of Sean's guys training MMA proves nothing. It wasn't "pure" WSLVT by any means. It was MMA. So, when someone can look at it and see an obvious boxing element, yet you claim WSLVT has had this very "boxing-like" method all along....it just doesn't ring very true!

 

[KPM]

That's why I guess he's either KPM's kid student or KPM's new troll account.

He shows equal ignorance but greater immaturity.

I told you already. I have no idea who that guy is. And it certainly isn't me!

 

[KPM]

I still think the discussion is silly. First it is about having long range game. Then a game that is about positioning and footwork to get in range for striking or stay in range of kicking is not acceptable because it has to be about fighting a WB boxer as a WB boxer.

.

It only seems silly to you because you have not even been following the logic of the discussion, as your comment above proves! Did you ever go back and read the whole thing as I recommended? No where did anyone say anything about "fighting a WB boxer as a WB boxer."

 

[LFJ]

---And you have clearly demonstrated that you don't even understand what having a "long range game" means for the methods that actually have one! You have confused a "long range strategy" with a "long range game" over and over and obviously believe they are the same thing.

Clearly not. In simple terms, you said;

LR Strategy = surviving long enough to get to close range.
LG Game = ability to conduct and end a fight from long range.

Is this an accurate summary of your definitions?

I have described VT methods of doing both. It is unlike boxing, but no less a long-range strategy and game.

That clip of Sean's guys training MMA proves nothing. It wasn't "pure" WSLVT by any means. It was MMA. So, when someone can look at it and see an obvious boxing element, yet you claim WSLVT has had this very "boxing-like" method all along....it just doesn't ring very true!

How do you know what pure WSLVT is to judge?

You keep pointing to irrelevant clips in the video to invalidate the relevant part. Why?

This is a dishonest tactic.

The LR game I pointed out to you had no non-VT element, neither MMA nor boxing.
Ducking a kick is not boxing. It's natural instinct even for the untrained.

The rest of it is entirely unlike boxing. You say oh, he ducked a kick, so we can disregard everything else he did.

This is dishonest.

 

[KPM]

C

The rest of it is entirely unlike boxing. You say oh, he ducked a kick, so we can disregard everything else he did.

This is dishonest.

No. Showing a clip that is clearly MMA training, acknowledging that things that look like grappling were added from outside the system, but then trying to say that things that look a lot like boxing have been part of WSLVT all along....that is what seems dishonest to me.

No. Showing a clip that is clearly MMA training, but then wanting to pick and choose short sections of it and say "this portion is pure WSLVT and representative of all WSLVT"....that is what seems dishonest to me.

So if you really want to prove what you are saying, provide a diffferent clip. A clip showing "pure" WSLVT (not MMA) sparring with a non-Wing Chun guy and conducting the fight entirely with a "long range game." Or heck, I'll take a clip of ANY lineage of Wing Chun doing that to make it easier for you.

I'm just being the skeptic you asked for. And I'm saying the evidence you've provided so far is weak and inconclusive. So either provide better evidence, or just drop the whole thing.

 

[LFJ]

No. Showing a clip that is clearly MMA training, acknowledging that things that look like grappling were added from outside the system, but then trying to say that things that look a lot like boxing have been part of WSLVT all along....that is what seems dishonest to me.

Other clips in the video showing grappling are irrelevant.
To continue to focus on this to invalidate the relevant part is dishonest.

Not knowing VT or what it entails but presuming to know is not only dishonest, but also arrogant.

No. Showing a clip that is clearly MMA training, but then wanting to pick and choose short sections of it and say "this portion is pure WSLVT and representative of all WSLVT"....that is what seems dishonest to me.

The striking is pure VT. Other clips with grappling are irrelevant.
If the long-range striking clip were uploaded by itself, it would still show long-range VT.

You are just looking for any excuse to invalidate it.

I'm just being the skeptic you asked for. And I'm saying the evidence you've provided so far is weak and inconclusive. So either provide better evidence, or just drop the whole thing.

You are not being an honest skeptic. Your tactics are deceitful.

Other clips showing grappling are irrelevant. Stop using this dishonest tactic to brush off the relevant clip.

And your lack of experience and knowledge of VT doesn't render the evidence inconclusive.
It shows the VT long-range game whether that upsets you that you never learned it or not.

 

[Phobius]

No. Showing a clip that is clearly MMA training, acknowledging that things that look like grappling were added from outside the system, but then trying to say that things that look a lot like boxing have been part of WSLVT all along....that is what seems dishonest to me.

No. Showing a clip that is clearly MMA training, but then wanting to pick and choose short sections of it and say "this portion is pure WSLVT and representative of all WSLVT"....that is what seems dishonest to me.

So if you really want to prove what you are saying, provide a diffferent clip. A clip showing "pure" WSLVT (not MMA) sparring with a non-Wing Chun guy and conducting the fight entirely with a "long range game." Or heck, I'll take a clip of ANY lineage of Wing Chun doing that to make it easier for you.

I'm just being the skeptic you asked for. And I'm saying the evidence you've provided so far is weak and inconclusive. So either provide better evidence, or just drop the whole thing.

Why provide a video when you already have made up your mind? Wing Chun does have footwork. Some of it resembles boxing quite a bit.

I find it strange that you object to it despite knowing one thing you should be all about is not getting stuck thinking of everything as techniques.

You have forms showing you that WC fighter can lose his angles and still recover yet you deny that when it occurs that it is WC.

You know about weapons form and yet you deny that there is a lot of footwork in WC. Maybe you have missed something.

Short swords against long pole should teach you the need for footwork is greater when having shorter weapons (punches).

Also look and you notice a shift in weight may occur in BJD. This teaches you something as well.

Now you may wish to deny all of this but what it means then only you can answer.

Now introduce boxing and you will notice your footwork does not improve. What it takes to improve footwork is to train with boxing gym because it is not techniques. It is repetition and physical drills. Structure and stance you can find in all arts.

Finally WSL was long range boxer I believe when learning WC. It was not something he was asked to forget. It was something he should use as part of his WC to make him the great fighter he was.

 

[LFJ]

Could you post a video of pure WSLVT? I'm curious what you consider pure, I saw the term passing by a couple times now.

Here.

 

[LFJ]

Finally WSL was long range boxer I believe when learning WC. It was not something he was asked to forget. It was something he should use as part of his WC to make him the great fighter he was.

WSL gave up boxing because it didn't work against VT.

VT long-range game is the polar opposite to boxing and based mostly on BJD strategy.
It is in direct conflict with what Western Boxing does at both long and close range.

 

[Phobius]

WSL gave up boxing because it didn't work against VT.

VT long-range game is the polar opposite to boxing and based mostly on BJD strategy.
It is in direct conflict with what Western Boxing does at both long and close range.

While I admit you must be right, what I mean is that it is still part of his body and training. It will be part of his natural movement and as such some parts of it will affect his style.

This is kung fu. Not an art you master but a constant progress towards something better.

 

[drop bear]

KPM has been saying VT doesn't have a long-range game, based on his lack of VT knowledge.

One also isn't justified in saying whether something is good or not if they have no knowledge of it.

Skepticism is fine, but agnostic is the correct position if you lack the knowledge and experience to judge.

It doesn't matter if VT has a long range game or not. The point is VTs game at any range is not necessary to improve WTs game. Even boxing isn't necessary.

If VT want to use VTs long range game that is fine. If VT wish to suggest that WC should use their game then they really need to come to the table with evidence that it works. Just like everyone else.

You don't need in depth knowledge of a style to see lack of evidence.

Yeah. Sounds logical. The problem is, just picking a popular and respected ring sport to gap-fill your missing long-range game without deeper thought is a silly mistake.

When looking to fill gaps it's important to do so intelligently, taking into consideration what exactly you're trying to accomplish if you hope to do so successfully.

To tack on a long-range game from Western Boxing to a free-fighting method is stupid because it fails to consider all the dangers boxing is susceptible to when not working under the ring rules that allow it to safely behave as it does. Various videos show the failures quite clearly.

Much has to be changed and gaps have to be filled for it, too! That's just compounding the difficulties of coming up with a functional free-fighting system starting from fractured, non-functional Wing Chun.

This is because you think people who do WC are a bunch of potatoes. And that they can't figure out what they need to incorporate and what they need to leave out. There is no reason WC guys can't just use the concepts that fit in with their needs.

Unfortunately if they tried to do that with VT they would first have to find out if any of it works. And then work out what to incorporate. Which seems like a much more difficult proccess.

Remember various videos show failures of boxing quite clearly. This transparency makes it a lot easier to guage a system than no videos and constant assurance ther system is "complete."

VT doesn't use a lead-rear leg stance at long-range. It keeps the leg out of the danger zone, either outside of kicking range, or inside of it.

This can help in drawing and baiting tactics to get the opponent to overextend, which opens them up for counter-kicking or punching. It's deceptive in that you don't actually lose reach. Of course, there's a lot more to the strategy and long-range tactics to accomplish this.

Great show me someone making that work.

 

[LFJ]

While I admit you must be right, what I mean is that it is still part of his body and training. It will be part of his natural movement and as such some parts of it will affect his style.

I disagree.

I've learned other styles that I have given up, and they don't affect how I perform VT.

Especially the more contradictory they are, the easier it is to discard.

Since WB strategy & tactics at both long & close range are in direct conflict with VT, it is not going to leak over for someone who has spent so much time training to ingrain their VT fighting behaviors.

 

[LFJ]

It doesn't matter if VT has a long range game or not. The point is VTs game at any range is not necessary to improve WTs game. Even boxing isn't necessary.

If VT want to use VTs long range game that is fine. If VT wish to suggest that WC should use their game then they really need to come to the table with evidence that it works. Just like everyone else.

I haven't suggested anyone adopt my game. I'm simply describing what VT is and what it entails.

This is because you think people who do WC are a bunch of potatoes. And that they can't figure out what they need to incorporate and what they need to leave out...
...Remember various videos show failures of boxing quite clearly. This transparency makes it a lot easier to guage a system

And yet, someone is still looking to incorporate the demonstrably failing parts into their free-fighting strategy.

Great show me someone making that work.

Half of this thread has been about the video that shows that, here.

 

[Phobius]

I disagree.

I've learned other styles that I have given up, and they don't affect how I perform VT.

Especially the more contradictory they are, the easier it is to discard.

Since WB strategy & tactics at both long & close range are in direct conflict with VT, it is not going to leak over for someone who has spent so much time training to ingrain their VT fighting behaviors.

It is ok for you to disagree. Does not mean any of us has to be right or even that any of us have to be wrong...

Now a question on that. Do you believe all fighters are the exact same? My view is that we are all somewhat unique more or less. So my experience changes my perception and way to act in a fight compared to others.

Training other things in my view changes both my perception, preference and personality. As such my experience changes me and I do not forget it. I use it to my advantage. Whether it be my strength, way to read a fight, desire to go in or stay out.... You name it.

This is why I disagree with you. If you wish to explain your view it is fine but it probably won't change my mind since it is part of my philosophical standpoint at core.

 

[LFJ]

Do you believe all fighters are the exact same? My view is that we are all somewhat unique more or less. So my experience changes my perception and way to act in a fight compared to others.

No, I don't. But, VT is trained in such a way that any even slight deviation in principle will be immediately obvious to the practitioner. It's self-correcting in that way.

Since, as I said, WB is the polar opposite of VT at both long and short range, it's impossible that one would be incorporating WB without realizing it.

But, more importantly, since they are directly contradictory, switching to WB strategy or tactics will render VT ineffective. They simply do not blend. If you want to do one, you have to completely abandon the other. So, there is no purposeful mixing of the two either.

Point being, no, WSL's VT was not influenced by WB. That can be clearly seen in how contradictory they are.

 

[drop bear]

I haven't suggested anyone adopt my game. I'm simply describing what VT is and what it entails.



And yet, someone is still looking to incorporate the demonstrably failing parts into their free-fighting strategy.



Half of this thread has been about the video that shows that, here.

Which is whatever sytem that was. VT probably? suplimenting their concepts with a bunch of modern fighting concepts. Either gap filling or cross training. To make a better system.